'Skills Gap' Not Supported by Wages

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Interesting article on welders, wages, and the alleged 'skills gap'.http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...,1577369.story   I have seen some skill gap in my (software) industry, but I think the 2nd to last paragraph is the most accurate.  Companies just can't find skilled people to work for peanuts, not suprisingly. When I hired a guy last year, at a very competitive rate, I reviewed dozens of resumes and brought in about 20 people for interviews.  Almost all of them had master's degrees, but I only found one that had useful skills.  The rest couldn't answer questions that should have been practically straight from their textbooks, so I can't imagine what they were doing in those classes.__David Hillman
Reply:Originally Posted by David HillmanInteresting article on welders, wages, and the alleged 'skills gap'.http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...,1577369.story   I have seen some skill gap in my (software) industry, but I think the 2nd to last paragraph is the most accurate.  Companies just can't find skilled people to work for peanuts, not suprisingly. When I hired a guy last year, at a very competitive rate, I reviewed dozens of resumes and brought in about 20 people for interviews.  Almost all of them had master's degrees, but I only found one that had useful skills.  The rest couldn't answer questions that should have been practically straight from their textbooks, so I can't imagine what they were doing in those classes.
Reply:As a 28yr old with no welding/fab experience trying to bust into the industry I have spent a lot of time thinking about this lately.I used to build rotary and flat cutting dies for making boxes then moved onto operating a Bobst cutting press. 3yrs in the industry wasted because I can't find work there.I turned to welding/fab because after farting around in my garage with my old Clarke I realized it was what I should have done since my teens (didn't see it through the drugs/alcohol back then).I tried to find a job where I could learn and work my way up but nobody wanted that. All the jobs around here are either a warm body to pull a mig trigger with no career future (and usually no bennies) or journeyman 5+yrs exp only need apply. I applied to some of them and was laughed at once or twice when I said I would work below the wage offered just to learn the trade. There's no middle ground in the job listings I see, no will on employers' behalf to hire TRAINEES.So I'm in welding school. As a displaced worker (laid off welfare bum that lives in shame) I got it paid for through the Workforce Investment Act and county aid. (I've taken crap for letting welfare pay for my school but I don't give a flying f*ck how that makes anybody feel - at least I use the $ to better myself and ultimately to earn a living for my wife and kids again instead of leeching just to coast though a nothing existence like almost every other welfare bum I've known.)The welding school I attend is a joke. Little more than guided practice with unlimited use of machines/consumables. They literally teach nothing but how to pass the weld tests. They don't teach joint fitup, machine types/settings, how to dial in your machine, basic teminology, and on and on. We weld on nothing but practice pads till the end then nothing but test plates. Also, if you ask each of the 3 instructors the same question you're likely to get more than 3 different answers. I am extremely disappointed with the school but I can't really complain because I'm lucky just to be there.So I spend literally 10-20 hours every week reading, practicing and learning at home on top of 30 hrs/wk at school to try to cover the huge gaps in my "education." Guys at school constantly ask me things they should be getting from the school and I'm routinely amazed by even upperclassmens' ignorance of the basics like polarity and electrode types. Dudes that can lay an okay bead but only if you tell them how to set the machine. There's guys in their final weeks completing cert tests that don't know the first thing about the codes their testing under - like who makes them and what they're for type first thing....I didn't mean to type a novel, just to point out the fact that the few of us new guys that really do want to be the best worker on the jobsite, learn everything, and lay sexy beads like its nothing are just as screwed by the age of instant gratification and blatant stupidity as employers and the industry are.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonUnderpay, undereducated. I just find candidates are just plain under experienced dragging the whole industry down. 30 years ago the oldtimers busted ***, and instilled that work ethic into the kids. Now the oldtimers are not willing to pass on thier skills because of the fear of being replaced with cheaper labor. Whatever the case the new hires can't pick thier noses correctly because even thier trade school instructors do not have real world experience. There is a new generation that is going beyond the traditional education paths. And that is apprenticing, web surfing for information, and job hopping for experience. Those are the kids I put my faith in. But they have little to no loyalty. The 2 week notice seems to be a thing of the past.My model is hire them green and cheap. Then train thier asses off, and get what you can out of them and see if they have the patience to move up the ladder. I don't care what anyone says, it takes 10,000 hours behind the torch before I can let them take charge of a project. They have to do what I do, say what I say, and think like I think. Only then can they make me money.
Reply:Our education-to-career paradigm is broken. That's why. Also a lot of college students don't believe they'll ever have to actually work for a living. But that's probably always been true. Don't tell me that's a recent trend.I think internships should be mandatory for degrees. Completing internship and externship is already mandatory for a medical license.  I don' t see why similar thinking shouldn't apply to other careers.  If there were a solid demand/expectation for internship programs, more companies would create them.I've read about people proposing eliminating lecture courses beyond the second year for chemistry students.A lot of business management degrees these days are a joke.
Reply:Originally Posted by JoshfromsaltlakeOur education-to-career paradigm is broken. That's why. [content deleted for brevity]A lot of degrees these days are a joke.
Reply:It's not just the welding / welders........ It seems to be the "attitude" here in America. I'm in a state where minimum wage is $8.80 / hour. Translated means that's where a guy starts that doesn't know anything.It's frustrating to the old journeyman getting ready to retire when he attempts to pass on some of what he knows. The attitude of the new hire is "I'm only making $8.80, I'm not supposed to know anything". So, what's going to come first the chicken or the egg?Immigrants will work for below minimum wage and actually have some sort of skill level.Is that where we're headed? I'm near one of the largest Intel campuses. I see a steady stream of immigrants going to work there every day (Work VISA's)....Before things can improve they have to stop getting worse. I don't see any slowing of the downward spiral when it comes to lack of craftsmanship.JMHOHoboLincoln SA200's... at least 15 - 20. They come and go. Growing partial to the "Short Hoods" in my old age. Last count on Short Hoods was 13 in possession.
Reply:My son is about 4 months into his first machinist job. He's had many community college courses in welding, manual and CNC machining and is closing in on a couple AAS degrees.  All A grades and he's handy.  He's familiar with MasterCAM, G-code programming and running HAAS and Mazak machines.  He's well-liked and makes good parts.  He's making $12./hr.plus HMO medical insurance."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:How true it is. We've been trying to hire welders non stop for over a year at my shop (not mine personally, but the one I work at). I've been telling management they need to up the pay and/or bring in a trainee and let them work their way up. About 2-5 people come in every week to take a weld test, and maybe 1 out of 50 will do good enough to pass. There is a huge skills gap when it comes to qualified, experienced welders. BUT their is a problem with the wages, when something is in demand, supply will raise the prices right? Well this isn't happening for most welders/machinist/ etc.  I've been lucky enough to bring in 2 people, start them at the bottom, and train them properly so they can earn a decent living and take pride knowning that they are good at what they do. Not so lucky with raising the pay. They dont want to raise the pay of all the welders they have, so they won't raise the pay of new hires.  We've been having people quit because they can make X amount more over at this shop, so how long until all of our guys quit?  Welders/machinists/skilled laborers are a dying breed. ESPECIALLY when it comes to doing a quality job, fast, efficient, and CORRECT. I  'm a young guy (26) and I've been welding as a profession for over 8 years now. Started right out of highschool. I got lucky and got a job at a mom/pop shop as a structural welder 'cause I couldn't pass the pipe test. When times were slow, I was trained on pipe. I am forever thankful of that opportunity, its taken me very far. I feel it's my turn to repay the favor, and am glad I've got 2 green kids to work with. BUT, I work for a big corporation and its hard to get this big companies to understand that people have to learn somewhere, and that if you cant get a journeyman/ highly skilled person, you're going to have to train.  They would rather leave the position unfilled than train a person.We all need to push back and help these kids fill the "skills gap". As far as the wages go, we can try all we can, but when push comes to shove, we all gotta work and we take what we can get for the best pay. Some shops still pay pretty good and are steadily increasing pay. Someday maybe they will realize that robots can't weld everything and a skilled hand is worth its weight in gold.        DougLincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300, Lincoln ranger 8, Lincoln LN-25, Miller Sidekick (keeps rockin!), Oxy/Acy torch, Miller XMT-304 with a Miller 60 series wire feeder and high freq. box, Profax positioner 8" chuck, Aaronson 3500# positioner 15" chuck
Reply:Originally Posted by freshintulsaThey would rather leave the position unfilled than train a person.
Reply:Originally Posted by hypothecaryThen they turn around and whine that they can't get skilled people to fill open positions......
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawI noticed u had a young staff of weldors.   So do pay them what they are worth after 10K hrs?  I figure they would go elsewhere otherwise.   You seem to be a great teacher and looked like u enjoy doing that.     I hope u sign up to be a counselor for the Boy Scout welding merit badge around your area.   Offer up tours of the shop to local troops,   hit up the girl scout troops too. Being u have female weldors on your staff I think it would be a wonderful exposure for the girls too.  I always disliked gender stereotypes growing up.   Heck I learned to sew and knit from various people at the same time I was learning to wrench on bicycles as a kid.   That is a great way to hook them while they are young.    If I ever move back to the valley, you will need a restraining order to keep me out of your shop.
Reply:If you think its bad now wait 5 yrs and see what you get as far as skilled tradesmen go...The politicians are scrambling now to try to lie people into getting them into skilled trades, so experienced skilled trademen cant make higher wages..  politicians are attempting to flood the labor market again..  I think this younger generation, just wants to make a cleaner living in the medical industry and such..  Which I dont blame them as the money and benefits are better from the start.. Also, $20hr top pay isnt that great anymore, unless your getting some good benefits..  You'll see as prices continue to rise, payscales will have to rise right along with it..  if it doesnt shops will just have to deal with a high turnover rate and less than stellar employees..      I find it funny, shop rates keep going up, yet pay scales in skilled trades are staying exactly the same or some actually worse than they were 20-30yrs ago,  and shop owners wonder why they cant get good experienced tradesmen, or why no one is wanting to learn skilled trades.. go figure.. When shop owners figure out the smart experienced highly skilled tradesmen can make money on their own, doing their own thing, or they can adapt to different trades and technical positions fairly easy,  they'll get a clue. I've heard 3 different shop owners saying the exact same thing "I cant find good help anymore"   We get people that stay for a yr or 2 and move on.   I have seen about 5 guys come in our shop the past few years that would make great machinists and go on to be toolmakers, I generally get them because thats my job to evaluate them.. I get the same thing every time, guy comes in, smart, willing to work, wanting to work, works good for a year or two, then figures out he can make more than $12hr doing something else easier and cleaner or get far better benefits  and hes gone with about 2 days notice.. Check your payscales with payscales of 20yrs ago..  then you'll know why you cant keep the good help.. I'm pretty sure we had this exact same discussion the last couple years on here.Last edited by brucer; 08-22-2012 at 05:02 PM.tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonSure I pay pay them more. It is all about productivity. I have to hold the line at 25% of my shop rate, which is $80/hr. That used to be 33% but over the years overhead and expenses crept up.
Reply:Originally Posted by Matt_MaguireInteresting note here. Before I left the rat race for private contracting I worked in a mid-sized machining house that opened in the 1890's.We were changing things in how things were estimated & then routed etc. - anyways, records showed labor made half of the shop rate until the late 1960's...By 1988 the shop rate was $60hr for most things and the labor $18-20hr. I would imagine as more partners, taxes, regulations and other parasites have found their way onto the back of labor, the rates 20 odd years on would be in the $80hr range (and pretty hard to sell) with the hourly rate still in the $18-20hr range.Depressing, really...The art and practice of machining has changed which can explain some of this. The art and practice of welding not so much change but it still seems to be tough on wages for those working daily in fab shops.MattMatt