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I am looking to fabricate/repair thin gauge aluminum mufflers for radio control model airplanes. I'm talking 1/16" aluminum (what gauge is that?) or even thinner if steel.My question is, would the Hobart Handler 210 unit with attached spool gun (from Northern Tool) be overkill for this use. In my Introduction post only one person addressed this. As I also want enough umph to do motor boat propellor repair and possibly general aluminum boat repair I think/hope the Hobart unit is sufficient (opinions - I'm all ears). I am just now questioning if this unit can do the small stuff well too. thanks guys.
Reply:Thin wall AL like you want is Tig territoryEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:I agree that tig is what you want for this type of work. I don't think you would be able to get the results you are looking for or even close with a mig.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:Hey lakeside,Yes..... you can do thin aluminum with a spoolgun as thin as 1/16" = .0625 = 14ga.. The thinnest alum. wire available is .030 = 1/32", so that is 1/2 the size of your material so it can be done. At times, I've even used .030 4043 for some TIG applications that has worked nicely. I have (2) spoolgun setups, shop & mobile & I keep both .030 & .035 in 4043 & 5356 for application parameters. A spoolgun setup is invaluable as far as I am concerned as it allows quite a variable usage with different materials & welding conditions.I would not hesitate to get a spoolgun..... your success will be the results of your willing to engage in some serious practice on like thickness material. Aluminum runs hot & fast.... you gotta get the "feel" of running good beads.... it's not hard if you don't make it hard. Some tips I can offer would be to insure that after running a bead, be sure to cut off the wire for a more positive start for the successive beads. Cut before start....will not fail you. Stickout can vary.... generally no more than 1/2" will suffice....practice will also reveal optimum results so nothing is really set in stone. Maintaining a constant angle, steady speed, & really concentrating on the puddle will lead to excellent results. Don't hesitate to experiment with heat/wf..... you will find that "sweet spot". You don't need to use excessive gas flow, as indoors, I stay in the 18-22 cfh range. Outdoors, I set up some shielding & increase to 24-30cfh if the wind is gentle & if too windy....schedule for another day.As far as boat repairs, not a problem also if you are sure of the material. Gotta be careful if magnesium is used & not alum.. Again, working on boats, outdoors, the wind would be your determination whether to proceed or not. Anyway, I hope this helps a bit & I'm sure others will chime in with their opinions/suggestions. Keep us updated on your decision & results.... Good Luck.....DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:I mentioned this in the other thread you did. You will want an AC capable tig to do alum. to do real thin alum you probably don't want to cheap out. Features like balance, pulse, and hertz adj. will probably greatly assist you when doing thin materials. I'd suggest you expect to spend between $2-3K on a complete machine new to get what you want.Alum tig is not the easiest thing to learn. Thin materials will make it that much tougher to learn. Alum welds completely different than steel or SS. I'd also recommend that if this is what you want to do that you look into taking a basic and then probably an advanced tig class at a local tech school or community college. Not only will you learn faster with someone to help you with heat control and technique, but you will probably be able to use better machines than most can afford right from the start. Add to that the materials, consumables like rod, gas etc. and it will actually save you money over trying to learn on your own..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:The HH210 with Spoolgun at Northern for 879.00 is a super deal and would not be a bad investment but I still say a Tig machine would be better suited for thin wall Al tubing like the RC Mufflers.If it was my own Muffler and all I had was a Mig and Spoolgun it would work.The HH210 has been given good reviews with running the Spoolgun and AL so it could work just fine with the AL Boat repairs.Can't comment on the Props but I imagine that requires some way to check the balance after the repair so that is a whole nutter ball game.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Building mufflers for model airplanes, using 1/16" material, is not a job for mig (spoolgun or not).Reconditioning aluminum boat props may or may not be possible with mig/spoolgun.Aluminum mig is simply too fast and lacks the heat control to do the job properly. If we were talking about aluminum fuel tanks for a tractor trailer rig (thicker material), I'd say maybe, but even here I'd recommend pulsed mig. Tig, although slower, would be my first choice.The OP needs to understand the limitations of the different welding processes. Not understanding those limitations results in buying a lot of equipment that won't do he intended job. Quite frankly, he's not getting very good advice here. The HH210, while a fine little mig welder, is not the right machine for the job the OP asked about.I bought my MM251 with 30A spoolgun from a friend (unit was 1 mo. old and he didn't ask me before the purchased). He bought the unit thinking he'd do alum intakes, exhausts, brackets, etc. on the racing jet skis he builds. Didn't take him long to figure out he'd bought the wrong machine. I bought the mig/spoolgun and he replaced it with a Dynasty 200 DX and couldn't be happier.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:I agree with most of the post here that state tig would be the best choice in my opinion. It is what I would use. But one thing I must add here is do not underestamate Yorkiepap. I have read many of his posts and have a lot of respect for his work.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:I would say to go take a welding class and they will have TIG and MIG (hopefully!) and after you learn both you will understand why you are talking about two TOTALLY different ballgames here. Definitely need TIG for small stuff along with skills....and for the big stuff well...you may still need TIG , just a BIG one.
Reply:I also second the pulsed MIG for the general aluminum boat repair.Last edited by BrianNye Welding guy; 12-30-2009 at 12:43 PM.
Reply:Hey guys,Interesting post gets better & better....many opinions really allow thoughts to proceed for optimum results along with the possibility of other options the OP has available.Ok.... my response was positive for a MIG spoolgun setup as originally posted. My reason was, first, the much better usage overall for the MIG/S-G setup. Many more applications can be covered with the MIG setup. Secondly, there are methods that MIG alum. w/s-g would work for his application. Being an RC fan with decades of experience, I know he can make these mufflers using the MIG simply because the muffler is a hollow tube that can be welded simply by using an insert plug of steel, brass/bronze, or even copper to act as a heat-sink & would allow a good weld. They are not rocket science to design & implement. For myself, since I have a full-sync TIG, I would also opt for TIG to do the mufflers. To invest in a full blown TIG(AC/DC) that limits overall welding applications to produce a small amount of model aircraft mufflers is not good investment planning & foresight for future applications that would limit usage. In addition, MIG is an easier process to engage in than TIG, other than if the OP has a good time span of O/A experience. I do also agree with the pulse option would be handy to have, although not a necessity.I definitely support & encourage anyone, especially you newbies, to take a welding class, whether HS, Vo-Tech, or college program. I see so many newbies thinking welding is so easy & find when they invest a large sum for equipment, they have no idea what to do afterwards when subjected to a problem. I also see the infatuation with youngsters with TIG because the see too much television that presents it as a cakewalk. TIG should be the last process one learns as the other processes will make it much gentler to break into because of the base knowledge acquired. Welding, fabrication, & all metal work gets in the blood & becomes, not only a passion, but superb challenges to test ones' mettle. After 47 yrs, I still have the passion & the "hunger" to learn anything new. It becomes part of your nature.....DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Denny,Never questioned "YOUR" ability to make that weld. The use of backing tube, etc was a great tip.What I'm saying is that 99% of the miggers on here will simply destroy that thin aluminum with a spoolgun.As you have probably figured out, I've got a mig/spoolgun setup, and I've done a fair amount of aluminum welding with that setup. Also got the XMT 304, Optima Pulser, 30A gun, and the WC24 controller and I'd still tig it every time.No question the mig will give a new guy a lot of welding capabilities, but, for this instance, he may be better off paying someone to tig weld his mufflers rather than sinking the money into a tig setup capable of doing the job. (He could get a lot of mufflers welded for what a Dynasty 200 setup would cost).Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:We have welded a lot of Radio controlled stuff for modelers here. But the mufflers can be a pain in the neck to get a perfect bead. Even with very clean aluminum and a great TIG machine. Once they are used that oil just does not go away. I know guys that weld thin aluminum all day long with Spool guns. And I know they could get a descent looking weld, that was only slightly uneven. The MIG welds were the same you see on all the aluminum outdoor deck furniture. I used to go to a shop near me, that did that all the time. And they used spool guns.The speed at which they fabricated a single unit was amazing. The welds were left as they were done that is how nice you can get it. But they had special jigs to hold different parts at different angles. It was not just laying the part on the table and welding. It was pretty high tech actually. But amazing results. Some parts were tacked with TIG and then MIG'ed for speed. Some parts were held by jig and just MIG'ed.You can also braze aluminum, with 40-43 brazing rod. The only downside is that if you go to polish the material, the brazing rod, leaves a slightly different texture and color then the base material or the actual 40-43 welding rod. But not bad. And very easy to do. Home Depot has it. I would even look into that method if I was doing it a lot, and I can TIG thin aluminum rather well. Sincerely, William McCormick
Reply:Hey guys,I'm hoping lakeside will chime in soon. I did read his intro to try to establish his knowledge base & he does acknowledge his newbie status. So, I guess we can each attempt to provide insight with the options he can contemplate. My primary suggestion would definitely be for some schooling/classes to get the base understanding. Next, he needs to enlighten us regarding the different types of welding & materials he wants to do in addition to model engine mufflers/boat repairs. To suggest any one process will not cover the bases he may want to be able to do in the future. Lastly, his finances will dictate selection as the gamut of prices can run from $500+ for a good used unit to $5K+ for the best. Each of us, I'm sure, have gotten migraines deciding whether to, or not to, spend those hard-earned $$$ for a new "toy". I'll address some of the responses...jamlit: Thanks...I appreciate your kudos to my offerings on the forums.BrianNye: Yes... any decent schooling will make entry into the welding arena much easier. I definitely support all the suggestions to the newbies to get a bit of welding education.SundownIII: Be at ease.... I never took your response in any negative manner. I know your suggestions are to also provide "food-for-thought" for many of the newbies. Most of we seasoned gents, hopefully, give back a bit of wisdom to help..... within reason. I might challenge your 99% estimation.....maybe 85%.William McCormick Jr: Your response has good points regarding the aspect that MIG is definitely a fast process & is indeed what most manufacturers engage to maintain a good profit margin. Additionally, since these are mufflers, I don't really see the aesthetic issue such as you would have with some of the classic/show car items made.On a last resort suggestion that I have a lot of experience with is some of rods that are advertised using propane/MAPP/Oxy/prop/O/A called AlumaWeld, HTS2000, & some others. These do work & are quite strong as I have tested them brutally. They have saved my a$$ several times & some of the diecast repairs I have done were quite lucrative. I keep a supply on hand for those "just-in-case" jobs. They would also work with the mufflers & would allow the OP to get some O/A practice.Anyway.... HEY lakeside! We need some input.... the ball is in your court!DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:All I can say is...wow. Last time I checked responses to this post I was pretty much convinced that TIG was the way I wanted to go.So, I've spent all afternoon reading up on TIG, watching videos on youtube, reading other welding forums, etc. I was quite surprised at how this post & responses has exploded with answers and information. My thanks to all of you. Now, as for my experience. I stickwelded a 4x8 trailer at the Air Force hobby shop on my base about 30 years ago. The beads looked sad to say the least, but I made up for it in quantity of bead. I must have used fifty rods welding that trailer. None of the welds ever came apart, so the guy that helped me did a good job of supervising/inspecting. I do plan to take a course or two at the local community college. I'm still leaning toward a TIG unit as from what I've read, it will allow me to do just about anything I could want to do, from thin gauge aluminum up to probably 1/4" mild steel. I doubt that my future holds any stainless projects, but I understand TIG will handle them too. Boat and/or propellor repair are not the primary reasons for getting this, hobby projects is the primary. So, to whoever mentioned that I should learn TIG last; sorry, but I will probably learn it first (and maybe only).Haven't decided on any particular unit yet; I still have to get my head (and pocketbook) around a purchase of that magnitude. thanks again
Reply:Originally Posted by yorkiepapHey lakeside,Yes..... you can do thin aluminum with a spoolgun as thin as 1/16" = .0625 = 14ga.. Denny
Reply:I used to push-pull pulse mig 14 to 18 gauge aluminum in my old production welding job. It's very easy with the right equipment. It can be done without the pulse, but out of position or poor joint fit-up or no backing heat sink joints are very difficult on that thin gauge material without the pulse. For this thin gauge aluminum, I would recommend tig instead of mig, unless you want to spring for a high dollar pulsed mig.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:for a noobee id say that your chances of getting a good weld with tig is better than with a spoolgun on thinwalled alum... although it will still take practice.G
Reply:Hey DesertRider,You implied a mistake regarding my dimensional post as to 14ga. Must be some confusion somewhere. My Pocket Reference lists 14ga =.064084 & 16ga = .05082. Also I use this chart to verify aluminum standards:http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/sc...heetmetal.htmlIf these are wrong, I will stand corrected.DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Originally Posted by yorkiepapHey DesertRider,You implied a mistake regarding my dimensional post as to 14ga. Must be some confusion somewhere. My Pocket Reference lists 14ga =.064084 & 16ga = .05082. Also I use this chart to verify aluminum standards:http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/sc...heetmetal.htmlIf these are wrong, I will stand corrected.Denny
Reply:Gauge to Decimal equivalentshttp://www.affiliatedsteel.com/resou...mal-chart.html0000 .454000 .42500 .3800 .3401 .3002 .2843 .2594 .2385 .2206 .2037 .1808 .1659 .14810 .13411.12012.10913 .09514 .08315 .07216 .06517 .05818 .04919 .04220 .03521 .03222 .02823 .02524 .02225 .02026 .01827 .01628 .01429 .01330 .01231 .01032 .00933 .00834 .00735 .00536 .00414 ga is .083, not quite the .090 I had remembered it as, sorry for the misinformation.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWInteresting... My pocket guide from an old supplier shows several different thicknesses.Alum/nonferous 14g =.0641, 16g =.0508 Steel sheet 14g =.0747, 16g =.0598Galv sheet 14g =.0785, 16g =.0635Steel Wire 14g =.080 , 16g =.0625Strip & tube 14g =.083 , 16g =.065
Reply:Here's an interesting one that agrees with DSW's pocket guide-http://www.plasticstoragetanks.com/g...sion_chart.htmMM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Seems even among wire manufacturers, no one can agree on gauge thickness...http://www.gowire.com/gaugedia.htmMM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:I am noticing hat everyone generally agrees that O/A is the best process to learn as a beginner.I also notice that most also agree that learning O/A is the best way to prepare to learn tig.Somehow it makes sense to me that learning TIG would be a newer more modern way to teach newbies to learn puddle control for other processes when you look at it from this perspective.Not intending to stir the pot here...it is just my thoughts lately after teaching a guy to tig and also thinking about doing private welding lessons to make a few extra bucks in slower winter off-season.Miller Dynasty 700Miller 350P with Aluma-pro push-pullMiller 280 Dynasty with expansion card Dynasty 200 DXMigMax 215 Enuff power and hand tools to create one of anything..... but mass produce nothing!!!Fusion:Interesting that you said that because after spending a whole day studying MIG vs TIG for welding thin(ner) aluminum I came across the YouTube videos on OA welding-brazing-soldering. Long story short, I'm thinking right now that OA will give me the flexibility to do all the different things I'm interested in getting started in, rather than first jumping off into the high dollar methods like TIG. That being said, are the OA kits from stores like Lowes, Home Depot worth even having. Remember, I am a hobbyist first, and not in it to make a living welding. thanks
Reply:The tanks in those small kits are usually too small. If you want to do O/A you probably want to get at least a "B" sized (40cf) acet tank, and a 60 cf O2 bottle. Also those kits are usually low end units and you may be better served with a good torch like a smith aircrafter designed to do small work on things like the airplane exhaust. I've also seen some sweet O/A micro torches that are often used to do tiny jewelry, but they'd be too small to do prop work for a boat. The problem is you want to do precision work on small parts. That means you will most likely need to get good tools to do an adequate job. To just learn the basics the torches that come in the kits are OK. You'd probably be best off getting the torch set separate from the tanks so you can get the slightly larger tanks.O/A alum welding is not easy, because the point where the alum melts looks almost the same as before it melts. I tried it years ago with only limited success. If you can find an old timer who really knows O/A welding to teach you you're all set. Unfortunately many places don't even teach O/A in the classes any more other than cutting and heating.You will want to start on steel most likely to get down the heat control and torch settings before you complicate things with alum welding.Soldering / brazing is a bit different. Since you don't melt the alum, many of the alum visual issues don't exist. You could easily silver solder alum, but it may not be the way to go to do boat props. For the aircraft mufflers it should be good, they sil solder alum refrigerant tube all the time.Last edited by DSW; 01-01-2010 at 10:42 AM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:This is THE Al gas welding sitehttp://www.tinmantech.com/Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Broccoli:Finding one of TinMan's videos on YouTube is what first got me interested in exploring the use of OA in aluminum work. He is truly gifted in both his technique and his ability to explain it. I will probably be using silver solder or brazing in the making of aluminum mufflers as they won't really require welding to function properly. |
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发表于 2021-8-31 23:41:25