opinions on a "NON-UNION" PIPEFITTERS APPRENTICESHIP

admin

hows everyone doin?this is my first post, i've been reading stuff on this forum for a while now but have never needed to ask anything yet........ till nowi'm an oregonian and i recently got my call for the non-union pipefitters apprenticship i've been waiting on for a year and a half. it's through the Oregon State Association of Plumbing, Heating-Cooling Contractors, PHCC out of Salem, Or. my call came from a smaller industrial contractor established in 2008 not far from where i live. they're growing and growing and actually work with the apprentice program teaching classes at the shop there. i have to pay out of pocket for classes (but my company reimburses for passed classes) each term and i progress by hours logged working as well. my major questions lie with the union/non-union thing..... the duration of the apprentiship is 5 years and when it's all said an done i'll have a "journeyman card", but what's that even mean nowadays? there's guys that lie their way onto jobs as journeymen and if they can last no one makes a fuss and they'll make the same as me without putting 5 years of training in.... is a journeyman card the same whether i did my training through a union or non-union apprentiship? can i get screwed by doing this whole thing through a non-union gig? i know you get "taken care of" better if you're union, but i've heard a lot of guys say they'll never work union cus they don't work as much. the benefit packages are better if your union, but what if you're with a strong company who backs you all the same?i'm stoked as heck to get this thing rollin and i would have loved to have gotten into the local over here, but i found out pretty early that was just a pipe dream unless you knew the right person. so here i go, starting out and i could use some words of advice from both sides. thanks a million in advance
Reply:Does this involve arriving at a State license, if it does what is the difference how you get there. There are some good non union outfits and some bad. Don't know if you have youth on your side, if the Union isn't calling you at this time , get your training however you can, If your are good later you can pick and choose and union or non union will be glad to have you if you master your skills."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:My opinion is that you probably ought not to look to an Internet forum for important, life-determining advice on any subject. Including whether you should take the opportunity that you said you waited 1 and a half years for.Union or not? That's your call bro...If its an opportunity then take it. Worried about the consequences of not taking a union apprenticeship? Then just sit back and wait. See what happens. In the mean time, say goodbye to the one you just got.What do you think you should do? Do that.EAWS D1.1 Certified SMAW 3G Unlimited, Open Root                             FCAW-G 3G Unlimited, w/BackerCellular Tower Reinforcement Welding on the frozen tundra of the greater Mid-West
Reply:I hold a current Oregon Class 5 Boiler License. I spent many years working out of the Pipefitters locals in the PNW. I now draw a Union pension....... I have no complaints.#1) Yes, it helps to know someone who can show you the ropes. #2) No, being "related" is not a shoe in.#3) If your a screw up, you get the boot (regardless if your related or not). The current "package" is around $60 / hour so there is no place for a slacker.#4) You build credits towards an AA degree in the Pipefitters program.#5) It cost you $00.00 to go through the Pipefitters Apprentice program.#6) The day your admitted is the day your medical insurance begins (you do have to work to have benefits deposited).#7) When work slows down you can "pull a travel card" and go to other locals that need manpower. This is what I did for many years... I was a "traveler" .. that's another story.#8) You will get the "best of the best" work (Intel / clean rooms / orbital welding)... Inside, clean, heated or cooled as needed.#9) The amount of education available is endless (Auto Cad, welding, pipeline, supervision, safety). Many members go on into supervision.This is what is offered. It's difficult to get in because there are some really sharp young men and women who will compete to get this package. It may take several runs at the admission board to get in. You commit to two nights a week for classes. It isn't a cake walk. If you want to call the program a "weed out" situation.... You would be correct.There is nothing wrong with a man working were ever he can to put food on the table for his family. Working in the piping industry will build hours towards your Class 5.Your at the "fork in the road"...... One way is going to be much more difficult with much greater rewards.Bottom line is --- It's your choice.Good Luck,HoboLincoln SA200's... at least 15 - 20. They come and go. Growing partial to the "Short Hoods" in my old age. Last count on Short Hoods was 13 in possession.
Reply:[QUOTE=foss;1715831].... the duration of the apprentiship is 5 years and when it's all said an done i'll have a "journeyman card", but what's that even mean nowadays? there's guys that lie their way onto jobs as journeymen and if they can last no one makes a fuss and they'll make the same as me without putting 5 years of training in....[QUOTE]Foss,That's a problem wether you're union or non-union.  It really sucks to see someone not as qualified, or slacking getting paid the same.  But it's a fact you gotta deal with, it'll happen everywhere due to politics, greed, favortism and just human nature.Your "earned" Journeyman card means more than you can understand right now.  First off, you'll have ALOT more pride in yourself and your trade.  Also, journeymen you work with will recognize and respect.I'm a Union Mason in Portland, and while masons talk crap about the apprentice program, it's obvious who went through and who didn't.I have no respect for those that bought their card.**The point I'm trying to make is go through the training, union or not, you'll be a better person for it**(but I am pro-union  )Last edited by dubl_t; 10-23-2012 at 12:30 PM.Reason: clarificationLincoln SA 200Esab Caddy 160Thermal Arc 201TSMiller Dialarc HFI don't like making plans for the day because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around the courtroom....
Reply:I now run a yard for a non union shop. Since we do refinery work, and in general pipeline, our welders still have to meet muster on quality; x rays do not lie.If you take a course, or a full blown internship, or an apprenticeship, one thing will still ring true: You will have to test and be proven before you are cut loose in the field in the pipeline industry. The pay is in general a good bit better than a welder in a non-pipe or non-critical structure welding job. Has to be; the one thing you will not be able to fake is a good weld, done right, and done quickly enough to meet the employers needs.We are testing guys right now. I should say; we are rejecting decent welders right now, left and right. Just hired 2 on, and 1 had 3 weld tests pass x ray, but were not what the CWI wanted to see on his visual inspection. He's juggling how to clean up his cap and smooth out his root enough to get this very picky inspector to give him the go ahead on a project.The other guy is already upset because he 'can't believe' they want so many test coupons from him. If they can put up with the picky CWI's, they will have really good jobs. Whatever way you go, expect that you will be tested, and don't forget that in the end, experience and knowledge are what will set you apart. Being union, or non union will not make nor break a welder who can put the work up. Plain and simple, if you are that good, you will get the jobs. They are out there for you.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:well all i can say is thanks for the input. all of it. it's really great hearing from so many different people cus EVERYONE has had a different road they've ridden down. it really is all about sharing those stories that makes this whole thing easier to understand. today was my first day of class, it went good. i am going to ask about the journeymen card and whether it's just a "state" card. what do you guys think of the whole card thing? i know it's a measure of achievement and pride, but is it useless in other states, is there such a thing as a federal card? and is a journeymen card the same whether you got your training through a union or non-union apprentice program? hows that work.....
Reply:Originally Posted by fosswell all i can say is thanks for the input. all of it. it's really great hearing from so many different people cus EVERYONE has had a different road they've ridden down. it really is all about sharing those stories that makes this whole thing easier to understand. today was my first day of class, it went good. i am going to ask about the journeymen card and whether it's just a "state" card. what do you guys think of the whole card thing? i know it's a measure of achievement and pride, but is it useless in other states, is there such a thing as a federal card? and is a journeymen card the same whether you got your training through a union or non-union apprentice program? hows that work.....
Reply:I would get your training anywhere you can...I started in a shop in the oil patch.I got my journeyman and my pressure.When I started they needed all your tickets before you joined the union.After a few years of starving in the union found I was better off on my own anyway.Work hard,be the best you can...to that union your just a number,find your own spot!    I was on the cover of the UA web page in our local when I got fined and expulsed lol for a job I was told to go to!!!! How is that for union looking after its members?????    Now on my own....I still do big inch tie-ins for better wages than they are offering right now!
Reply:Hey Im from Oregon too and im new as well. I work in a non union ASME shop. based on what ive seen, cards, certs and all that stuff is just documentation. Experience is what counts. How good of a welder do you wanna become? You can learn plenty in a non union shop. Whatever you choose, stick with it and get good. Apprenticeship requires dedication. As for the slackers and liars, well they get weeded out quick. NDE and inspectors dont lie. Especially not the customer's CWI
Reply:I'm a union boilermaker and proud of it but it doesn't matter where you learn your skills. Unions typically have pensions and not many non-union outfits do.401ks don't count as a pension as they were originally designed to simply be a pension supplement. I'm lucky as I have both. Get in whatever you can do now, don't wait.Your experience will carry right over into union work if you get a opportunity down the road.All work union or non-union has the same crap and political junk that goes with the territory. As Rojo mentioned it doesn't matter where you perform your skills you will be required to demonstrate this each and everytime you change jobs and if your doing code work testing will be a normal part of everyday work.I'm always proud to hit the weld booth and display my skills to a inspector, it's what you are and what you should strive to be if your not.
Reply:You need to be the best you can be , union or not.    A union pipefitter  was able to work in any local on a travel card. I'm retired a year from the union.You might want to think about what kind of benefits each offer too. Life insurance, eye care, dental,  health, pension, and 401 K  means a lot.  Things are still tough today. I got out at 61 years old. My pension is almost $3900.00 a monthfrom union. Something to think about. I wish you well.
Reply:thanks you guys.... I WILL stick with it and I WILL strive for perfection!! just knocked out my 6g stick cert last week and I'll be workin on stainless next. my boss said once I pass my tig test I'll be worth 18 an hour. that ain't too bad for a first year apprentice wage, specially when I'll keep gettin bumps every 6 months on out.  once again, I really appreciate all the comments!!