Electrocuted?

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Hi. First post here and just wanted to get some feedback before jumping in. I need to weld some steel supports inside a steel tank, which means I literally need to get inside the tank and weld. The tank has integrated steel feet that make contact with a concrete floor. I'm wondering if there's anything I need to do from a safety perspective to insure I don't kill myself   In the past I've struggled to keep one foot on a thick rubber mat, but I can't reach any longer. Just not sure on this. Welding mild steel with both TIG and MIG @ 220v. My apologies if I've posted this in the wrong fourm...
Reply:I weld in tanks all the time just make sure you have on proper gloves and boots and you will be fine... There will be no water in the tank will there??
Reply:I'd be a hell of a lot more worried about ventilation than getting zapped.My name's not Jim....
Reply:I am by no means as qualified as many others are on this forum but my biggest concern would be fresh clean air while welding inside a tank type vessel, ironworkers weld on all types of material while standing on, kneeling on or laying on without being fried.Just make sure you don't become part of the electrical circuit by grabbing onto the electrode, make sure the insulation on the stinger lead is in good order, ECT.   I am sure there will be others to come along that will add to the list that are far more qualified than I am. Anyhow good luck and weld safely.
Reply:Damn you guys reply in droves quite fast. Lol
Reply:Divers weld completely immersed in water. Common sense goes a long ways to keeping you safe. Never get between your electrode and the ground connection in situations like this. The electricity will take the shortest path, and if you are it, you are in trouble. Good general PPE is also important. Good boots and gloves will reduce the conductivity and make it less likely you will become the shortest path. Be careful if you get wet. Wet gloves etc will increase the likely hood you will get shocked..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Great. Thanks all. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. -No water -Kneeling on steel floor with rubber sole boots, body leaning against side of tank.-Box fan blowing air in with a vent on the bottom. Not ideal, but gotta do it. Won't be inside the tank for more than 5 minutes.DSW: You said "Never get between your electrode and the ground connection in situations like this". Maybe I'm thinking about this too much, but not sure I get what you're saying here. Can you give me an example situation to clarify?BTW: I am very careful when using my plasma cutter. I stand on a rubber mat and try to never touch whatever I'm cutting. Also focus on a good clean ground. Plasma cutters do not get the safety respect they should IMO.
Reply:Lets say you have 3 locations, lets call them A, B and C in that order. If your ground is at position A and your electrode is at position C, you are in between the two if you are in position B. If You are in either position A or C, then you are not between the work clamp and the electrode. When we wet welded, we'd stop every so often and reposition the ground, so that it was always on the other side of the diver from where he was welding. Also the closer your ground is to where you are welding, the lower the chance is you will get between the two and make the shortest path to ground.You don't have to have water to get shocked. Simply heavy sweat will do it. If your work clothes or gloves get soaked with sweat, then that lowers the resistance in them and increases the likely hood you can get shocked if the conditions are right..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I weld in stainless brewing tanks every day and the only time I've ever been shocked was from the high freq. in the tig torch.. To weld in an enclosed space you should have supplied air to your respirator and you should have the air tested every time before you go in thoughhttp://specific.net
Reply:X2 on the ventilation.    A solid confined entry protocol wouldn't hurt either and this is definately not something to attempt by yourself without a safety watch.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:To get zapped you need to be the piece completing the electric curcuit. A bird is perfectly fine sitting on one power line as the current has nowhere to go through it, if it touches two lines or one and a grounded object at the same time current will flow from the line, through the bird, and to the other line/ground.Touching grounded objects is harmless. Touching live wires is harmless. Touching both at the same time, bad idea. Trying to stay insulated on both sides, both where you touch ground and hold welding equipment might not be a bad idea... but on the other hand, it is also very important where the current passes through your body if it ever does. Current going from your right hand (holding the welder perhaps?) to the left hand where you support yourself on a grounded object goes straight through the heart, not a good thing. If you instead would have had your right elbow bare on grounded metal the current would have taken that path, not passing the heart. Not a pleasant thing to feel I guarantee, but better than stopping the heart.Having said that, most welding processes I know use relatively low voltages, and it shouldn't normally be able to push a high enough current through the human body to be real dangerous. But precautions are never a bad idea ofcourse, sh*t does happen and some people are more sensitive than others.
Reply:3X on ventilation....have a safety watch strong enough to help you out.
Reply:Originally Posted by G-sonHaving said that, most welding processes I know use relatively low voltages, and it shouldn't normally be able to push a high enough current through the human body to be real dangerous. But precautions are never a bad idea ofcourse, sh*t does happen and some people are more sensitive than others.
Reply:In my area doing tank work  requires the weldor to complete a confined entry permit which requires someone to be posted at the entrance of the tank in constant contact with the weldor and a handheld electronic air monitor inside the tank.REAL TRUCKS DON'T HAVE SPARK PLUGS
Reply:Originally Posted by gwileyElectricians (the older ones anyway) will work on service panels etc. with one hand to help prevent grounding through their heart by accidentally touching ground/live with their two hands.
Reply:i'm still lost at the original post.what is one foot on a rubber mat supposed to do for you ? of course,if you only stand on that one leg and dont touch the work with any other body part,you're all set.miller thunderbolt 250vlincoln square wave tig 175 prolincoln idealarc mig sp250everlast tig 210EXTeverlast power plasma 50chicago electric (hf) 130 tig/90 arcchicago electric 90 amp flux wire3 sets oxy/acet
Reply:All of the above, I would keep the ground as close to the weld zone as possible and nice and clean, clean the metal and the clamp. if your gonna laor sit on the tank floor put a car mat or other non conductive mat down, even some plywood. Just a feel good and can't hurt. The more of your body you have in contact that is not insulated the more chance you have of becoming between the circuit.As said many a guy has sat on girders or layed on decks while welding."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:I have been upside down in a ditch in a rainstorm doing "repairs"...Don't ask....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Zap, I once welded pilings in a coffer dam, 20 Ft below the surface of a river sinking in the mud up above my knees in a foot of water rain pants duct taped to my rain pants in the Farmington River in December. Worst part was getting unstuck from the mud, I really think it had something to do with my hip going out at a young age. You aint been till you walked on a muddy river bed, minus the river, LOL     Friction pilings for a new bridge, the whole thing was condemmed the following spring when the spring floods came and moved all the piers and abutments, Some times the engineers make mistakes to."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:Confined Space - a workplace not normally occupied by people where access and egress is impeded and where poisonous fumes or a lack of oxygen may occur.Need:CS Permit and Procedure - from owner of CSGuard - trained in CS procedure, to guard entry to CS, log who enters and leaves CS, to summon help in emergency and operate rescue gear such as a winch with lifeline attached to CS worker.  Trained in CPRWorker - trained in CS procedure, must wear PPE and such equipment as specified in CS procedure, if guard must leave, then worker must exit from CSAir testing - before entering and at start of each shift minimum.These are some of the precautions required.  Getting shocked by the welder is the least of your worries.  Many have died tragically in confined spaces, 5 minutes is more than enough time for you to be overcome and become unconcious.  Also tragically many coworkers have rushed in to save their fellow crewmember and have been overcome as well."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:Originally Posted by SnuffyI've heard alot of different number of how many amps directly through the heart will kill you and honestly don't know which is true.
Reply:Bah link failLast edited by Snuffy; 11-14-2012 at 12:19 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by papaharley03Our electrical safety and LOTO courses always quoted as little as .001 amps.
Reply:Originally Posted by papaharley03Our electrical safety and LOTO courses always quoted as little as .001 amps.
Reply:Its a simple circuit... Just don't make yourself part of it....Usually the only time I ever been shocked is when I was wet, from sweat most often (salty sweat is a great conductor). Occasionally from shoddy equipment.If your gloves are dry and all insulators are intact, you will be fine!Constant Current Weldor.Thank you all. Work complete. Fan worked well since the hole I crawled though was relatively large and there was another hole in the base allowing cross ventilation of sorts. Welding also took less than 2 minutes.Somebody said they didn't understand why I was using a mat, or had one foot on the ground... Without knowing what I was getting into, I attempted to keep myself insulated, right or wrong, I was just doing what I though was correct at the time before coming here for advice. There's nothing to not understand.
Reply:Now it's time to put the TIG down and get a MIG so I can get some work done. Think I'm going to pull the trigger on a Miller 211 tomorrow. Almost got the Hobart 230, but like the portability and dual voltage capability of the Miller 211. Based on what I've seen and read, it should be a pretty nice unit.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterI have been upside down in a ditch in a rainstorm doing "repairs"...Don't ask....zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammerare we not supposed to ask because the cause of the damage was self inflicted?
Reply:Roger..."the pattern is full"There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger