Welding a cast Iron engine Block

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GREETS EVERYONE!Pull down you visors because this one will likely burn your retinas!You might recognize that kind of engine.   It is a Hemi.  A modern 5.7L hemi engine.  And that hole is the results of piss poor powered metal rods they most modern engines use. This one failed at 130K miles driving 55 mph down the highway.  They make a nice hole don't they?Anyway the rest of the engine is like new.  This one lived on Mobil 1 and good regular maintenance.  It is like a new engine internally except for the broken rod, piston and of course the hole in the block.  Seriously, the bore looks perfect, the rod journal looks perfect.  The failure is poor metallurgy from the powdered metal rod.  So, I'm fixing it.  I have already done some research on welding cast iron using MuggyWeld 77 rods.  The broken out section is only a 1/4" thick.  I plan to find a 1/4" piece of steel, grind it to hole size, and weld it in.  Now the question for you pros out there.  How would you go about this repair.  The ones that are planning to reply "order a block" don't bother.  I would really like to hear from those who have used the 77 rods for cast iron.  Right now, it is an expensive paper weight.  The cost of a rod, piston and fixing the block is all I will be out.   What do ya think?? Attached Images
Reply:PM member castweld (or wait for him to respond) who does this type of work all the time.  You can do a search to see what I mean.  There are others that can help as well but Peter for one makes his living doing what you're looking at.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Do you have the piece that broke off? I think brazing it would be a better option.
Reply:Originally Posted by llamafurDo you have the piece that broke off? I think brazing it would be a better option.
Reply:Dr,Why wouldn't you use a piece of cast iron, say from another block, as your filler piece?  That will help you avoid the different CoE between steel and cast.  Or even from a frying pan right of the walmart shelf.  How sweet would it be to have "Lodge" on the side of the block.Did that window come out that clean or is that after you cleaned it up?  Good luck I'll be watching this thread.
Reply:I'll be watching too!!! I don't know the nickel comp of the muggy rod.With Duaneb I'll wait on Castweld... Looks like a candidate for coldwelding, but the pan seal is going to take some serious love.+1 on trying to find some iron to put in it, but we recently had a fella weld up a water pump using a steel coupon if I remember right. Duaneb also saved a badly broken gen motor block some time back, use the "search" for cast iron welding and get in the mood.Matt
Reply:Originally Posted by david_rDr,Why wouldn't you use a piece of cast iron, say from another block, as your filler piece?  That will help you avoid the different CoE between steel and cast.  Or even from a frying pan right of the walmart shelf.  How sweet would it be to have "Lodge" on the side of the block.Did that window come out that clean or is that after you cleaned it up?  Good luck I'll be watching this thread.
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55PM member castweld (or wait for him to respond) who does this type of work all the time.  You can do a search to see what I mean.  There are others that can help as well but Peter for one makes his living doing what you're looking at.
Reply:You can order cast plate from MSCLarryMiller XMT 304 CC/CVSyncrowave 180 SDLincoln PowerMig 255XTTermalDynamics 52Lincoln 305GComlpete machine shop to back it up
Reply:Originally Posted by david_rHow sweet would it be to have "Lodge" on the side of the block
Reply:Originally Posted by LarrysmachineYou can order cast plate from MSCLarry
Reply:Dr RightousI think just about everyone would attack this in a different manner. If it were me.... I'd make a steel patch, weld in the pan rail portion and that bolt boss before welding patch into block. I'm guessing your preferred welding method is stick? Muggy Weld? Don't know what it is (rod) but it is probably a relabeled nickel/iron rod. I'd use a 55 nickel iron rod- AWS A5.15. Start at one end and weld about 1/2 inch long stop and peen the crap out of it, when you can hold your hand comfortably on last weld, do next one, which would be other end. Alternate sides untill welds have met in middle. Problems can be distortion in block, check line bore before and after welding. May need to be remachined. Deck is far enough away that it will not likely be affected. Cylinders close to weld need to be checked for distortion also.Have fun.PeterEquipment:2  old paws2  eyes (that don't look so good)1  bad back
Reply:Unless you are bound and determined to use the Muggyweld rod, you should consider getting some certified nickle rod from your LWS. I can't knock their product because I have never used it. I have even been tempted to order their sample kits and try them out. I don't think a critical application like yours is a suitable project to test out one of these miracle rods. Most of them are just a lot of hype. I agree that a steel patch wold be your best bet. I like to use a patch that is thinner than the casting, and even put a bit of a cup in it.That pan seal and blind bolt hole will require your attention aswell.Post some pics of your preparation. Good luck!
Reply:Originally Posted by castweldDr RightousI think just about everyone would attack this in a different manner. If it were me.... I'd make a steel patch, weld in the pan rail portion and that bolt boss before welding patch into block. I'm guessing your preferred welding method is stick? Muggy Weld? Don't know what it is (rod) but it is probably a relabeled nickel/iron rod. I'd use a 55 nickel iron rod- AWS A5.15. Start at one end and weld about 1/2 inch long stop and peen the crap out of it, when you can hold your hand comfortably on last weld, do next one, which would be other end. Alternate sides untill welds have met in middle. Problems can be distortion in block, check line bore before and after welding. May need to be remachined. Deck is far enough away that it will not likely be affected. Cylinders close to weld need to be checked for distortion also.Have fun.Peter
Reply:Originally Posted by Pro-FabUnless you are bound and determined to use the Muggyweld rod, you should consider getting some certified nickle rod from your LWS. I can't knock their product because I have never used it. I have even been tempted to order their sample kits and try them out. I don't think a critical application like yours is a suitable project to test out one of these miracle rods. Most of them are just a lot of hype. I agree that a steel patch wold be your best bet. I like to use a patch that is thinner than the casting, and even put a bit of a cup in it.That pan seal and blind bolt hole will require your attention aswell.Post some pics of your preparation. Good luck!
Reply:i think the best thing to do is buy a chevy
Reply:I would get a  cast iron pan that is square with a lip on it. That way you will have the shape you need for the pan flange already on it. Don't just clean the flux off and weld again. You have to peen the weld to releave the stress you impart when you weld and no more than 1" of weld at a time. However I don't let it cool between welds. Once the heat is in I stay with it until the weld is done.I would try to get some rods from United Technologies Products (UTP). They have a rod that is more cast iron and very little nickel. Try to get a UTP book on their rods, it has good instructions on how to use their rods and they are the real cast iron specialists in rods.
Reply:Funny to see this this thread.  i just got home.  Had to do an emergency "Cast iron to Steel" weld today.   It wasnt a critical part and I only had 7018 1/8th" and 6010 3/32" w me. it was for the tounge jack on a 20K trailer  trailer   if you've ever disected one you know what i mean.    i had to weld the cast peice to the 4x4 inner pipe.  it actually went really well  Pre heated to 525 degtacked in place re heated again.Welded w 3/32" 6010 using 1" welds till the welding was done.  (alternated sides until filled)    i did tap the heck out of it on each side.   i was suprised no cracks when i let it cool and ground it smooth.It was for my buddys backhoe trailer and needed a jack for a job tommorow till he bought a new one. Good luck on welding that engine block!!    i know you can do it.Here's a pick of a similar tounge jack Attached Images“I'm going to do the thing that God put Galen Beasley on this Earth to do:Have Salon quality hair and weld.Nothing like a good cup of coffee and the smell of 6010 burning in the morning. 971-204-3444 cell API ASME Structural NDT and Repair
Reply:Hi DR. I checked out your "how 'dat happen" and I gota tell you the top of that piston looks like something came in contact with it at the edge where the land is broke. I see a straight line across the carbon print and a half moon shape that apperas to be smashed down. For that ring to be captured something had to compress that land. I know you said the combustion camber was fine, but it looks like something was in there.
Reply:i have been driving my 82 dodge with a 97 cummins in it for about 9 years. i bought it with a hole in the block one could stick your fist through. i knew i wasnt qualified to weld it. i took a piece of 1/8 in. steel and formed it over the hole, made a gasket, drilled and tapped for 1/4 in. bolts and it has worked this long. looks kinda like the plate over the power take off hole in a trans.
Reply:Originally Posted by trapperjohnHi DR. I checked out your "how 'dat happen" and I gota tell you the top of that piston looks like something came in contact with it at the edge where the land is broke. I see a straight line across the carbon print and a half moon shape that apperas to be smashed down. For that ring to be captured something had to compress that land. I know you said the combustion camber was fine, but it looks like something was in there.
Reply:Do you have access to a TIG machine? If so, you might try to TIG the patch in with some silicon bronze filler. I read about it on weldingtipsandtricks.com, tried it out on a broken cast iron waterpump from my parent's retirement shanty, and it works like a hot damn! Preheat and stress relief rules still apply, of course. Just a suggestion! I'm interested to see how the repair turns out regardless of the route you take. Good luck!
Reply:Originally Posted by trackbirdTypically a rod fails during the exhaust stroke when there's less resistance to the piston moving up the bore (it's not fighting the compression stroke). Usually the failure is at the point of the "toss" (as it's often called) when the rod starts back down the bore and has to reverse the direction of the piston and "yank" it back down the bore. That's when the rod often comes apart. If that's when this one failed, I suspect the piston hit the head. That would explain the smashed compression rings (I had an engine do this same thing years ago). Is there a matching shiny spot on the head where the piston may have come in contact with the head surface?
Reply:castweld have you ever used ni 44 (tig)
Reply:I was always taught to preheat when welding cast iron. Am i wrong? I have done several cast iron repairs and always preheated first. I used to have a set of "melt sticks" that would melt at certain temperatures. If i remember right cast was recommended preheated to 1000 ?? Grind a bevel into all surfaces to be welded. Weld and post heat. Then slowly cooled, submerged in sand to keep from cracking. Every repair i have done has worked and held as far as i know. Might look into this.I found this link that was interesting. http://www.locknstitch.com/PreheatWeld.htmMoose13Last edited by moose13; 04-06-2011 at 09:26 PM.Originally Posted by ed maccastweld have you ever used ni 44 (tig)
Reply:Originally Posted by moose13I was always taught to preheat when welding cast iron. Am i wrong? I have done several cast iron repairs and always preheated first. I used to have a set of "melt sticks" that would melt at certain temperatures. If i remember right cast was recommended preheated to 1000 ?? Grind a bevel into all surfaces to be welded. Weld and post heat. Then slowly cooled, submerged in sand to keep from cracking. Every repair i have done has worked and held as far as i know. Might look into this.I found this link that was interesting. http://www.locknstitch.com/PreheatWeld.htmMoose13
Reply:Originally Posted by castweldHeating is an accepted method, so is cold welding. I would rather heat in the 1100 degree range but in this case the block would have to be remachined on most surfaces (expensive). Although cold welding is not "best" method it will cause less high heat related problems. It does work, I repair many castings both ways.Peter
Reply:Originally Posted by galencwiHi cast welddesribe cold welding cast-  what temp range are you referring to?that was my first try on cast welding the other day so i looked it up.  it said to keep the metal out of the  150F to 499F range  and not go over 1200F-1400F because it causes brittleness.  I kept it in the 500F+ range is that what your referring to?
Reply:thank you.“I'm going to do the thing that God put Galen Beasley on this Earth to do:Have Salon quality hair and weld.Nothing like a good cup of coffee and the smell of 6010 burning in the morning. 971-204-3444 cell API ASME Structural NDT and Repair
Reply:After welding the block, the crankshaft and cam bearing bores should be align bored to compensate for any distortion (warpage) created by the localized heat of the welding.I offer three choices: Good, Fast, & Cheap. You may pick two.Hobart AC/DC StikMate LXHarbor Freight AD HoodHarbor Freight Industrial Chop SawDeVilbis 20 Gallon, 5 HP Compressor
Reply:Don't know if considering the operating temp of an engine block which is usually around your coolant temp180*-220*.  The oil splashing of the crank case has some cooling effect and the block itself is kept in check by the coolant system.  This is nowhere near the "hot spots" would would be near the upper cylinder walls.
Reply:Originally Posted by castweldCold as in do not make another weld untill you can hold hand comfortably on last weld-under 150F.Peter
Reply:Originally Posted by Dr. RighteousSo a Cold Weld is not preheating the area to be welded at all?
Reply:My preferred method of cold welding, which I use for all large castings it to preheat as much of the casting as possible, and as evenly as possible, but not more than300 - 400 deg.F. If you sand down some surface area around the break, you can keep an eye on it while preheating to see that you don't cause discoloration. Then I  set and tack the patch or missing pieces. Once I am all setup, If I can hold my bare hand on it, then I start with a short stitch, and keep myselfbusy by peening it with a sharp pointed chipping hammer until it is cool enough to touch bare handed again. If I am forced to leave for even a short period, a cover it with a fire blanket or leather jacket. If it cools off to the point of being back to room temperature, then I start over with the heater, but if at all possible, don't stop untill the repair is complete. If it feels like when you wrap your hand around a mug of hot coffee, then it should be ok.
Reply:Originally Posted by Dr. RighteousSo a Cold Weld is not preheating the area to be welded at all?
Reply:I have repaired many 427...428 "Windowed" Ford blocks but we always took them apart and pre heated the block in a homemade oven with 300 lbs of charcoal going to get it red hot..Repair the area and then return to oven and let cool naturally..This took 3 days but they always held.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:"And that hole is the results of piss poor powered metal rods they most modern engines use."You meant powdered compressed metal right?AWS certified welding inspectorAWS certified welder
Reply:Gives a whole new meaning to "Blown Hemi"  ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:I have a bad one i am trying to repair. I dont know if i am going to be able to do it though, it brought at one of the cross bolts... And the pan rail area also has a chunk taken out of it... what do you guys thinkHTP Invertig 201Lincoln Idealarc SP250Miller 180 AC StickBy farmall:They should have held the seagull closer to the work, squeezing evenly for best deposition.
Reply:That don't look all that bad..You have to inspect the inside up to the cam bore for cracks.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Yeah i just dont know how to go about making the boss for the cross bolt to go through, and make sure its square with the main cap while it gets welded up. Never really done this sort of thing, my dad wants me to try and fix it. Its only a 427 side oiler. HTP Invertig 201Lincoln Idealarc SP250Miller 180 AC StickBy farmall:They should have held the seagull closer to the work, squeezing evenly for best deposition.
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald Branscom"And that hole is the results of piss poor powered metal rods they most modern engines use."You meant powdered compressed metal right?