Question about argon.

admin

I have another question relating to fuel. I was wondering what the readings on athe reg. should be for argon on a mig welder? Thanks
Reply:I use 15-20 cfm. I don't know about the regulator readings, though. I use a ball-type flowmeter because I can read the flow directly.
Reply:Thanks, yea i got a welder from some one and they jus left the tank and reg. on, so that they could just turn the machine on but now i think the tank is low, but i wanted to adjust the reg. to the right settings.
Reply:A regulator is CFH and a Flometer is CFM.  On GMAW or GTAW use a Flometer or flo-gauge, not a Regulator.  JohnSMAW,GMAW,FCAW,GTAW,SAW,PAC/PAW/OFCand Shielding Gases.  There all here. :
Reply:I thought a regulator was for regulating psi and a flowmeter was cfh or cfm.HH 187Miller Bluestar1EAHP AlphaTig 200X
Reply:A true regulator is for maintaining a lower pressure, so is labeled in PSI or kPa.A "flowgauge" is a regulator that has a calibrated orifice to a known flow at certain pressures.  While still a regulator, the dial is labeled in CFH.  This is accurate enough for most users and are the types that come with most hobbiest MIG equipment and even some industrial units.A flowmeter uses the floating ball and you set the pressure spring directly to get the flow that you want very accurately.Nothing in this field is labeled in CFM except your air compressor equipment!
Reply:So then would 20 psi on the victor regulator be more less 20 cfm on the flowmeter ?  I seem to be going through the argon tank too fast.  and just want to make sure i'm on the right setting and not wasting gas.  its 50 bucks to fill it here.
Reply:If your Regulator only has one gauge you have the wrong one for the job.It should either have two gauges or a gauge and a ball-flowmeter, one that reads out in PSI in the thousands and this is your tank pressure. The only will read out in CFH, and this is your flowmeter.With either style you set the adjustment knob on the unit to the CFH you are trying to achieve. If you feel your consumption is too high, try lowering your flowrate. 15-20 is typical. Some situations you might get away with even less.But if you don't have the proper equipement, all of this is moot anyway!Also, to correct the original post. Argon is not a fuel, it is an inert shielding gas that prevents oxidation of the molten weld pool and promotes ionization of the arc. For Short Circuit transfer MIG (typical), you should be using a Argon/CO2 mix. 75%/25% is pretty normal.Last edited by chicksdigwagons; 03-31-2009 at 10:03 PM.
Reply:PSI will not be CFH.  There will only be a conversion possible at a known orifice size, which is how a flowgauge works.You need a flowmeter or flowgauge labeled in CFH.  That said, you don't really need to know the number anyway.  See if you can turn it down until you get porosity and then turn it up a bit until you never do.  Who cares what the number is?
Reply:I'm using Argon/CO2 Mix 75/25 and i have a victor regulator with 2 gages.. i don't have the ball flow meter yet.  I figured i could get by without it.  I turned one of the gages 20  and started welding  It was all going well till went through a 125 cf tank in less than a day, i don't know maybe its just me...but isn't that too much ??  so i guess i'll have to "jimmy it" as MAC702 suggested till i get good weld, or once i get my bailout money i'll go out and buy a flow meter
Reply:Originally Posted by Bucilini...I turned one of the gages 20  and started welding...
Reply:20 psi.
Reply:Originally Posted by Bucilini... i don't have the ball flow meter yet.  I figured i could get by without it. ...
Reply:20 psi.. did seem like there was  too much pressure coming out of the welding gun.  So i'll have to tweak it tomorrow...
Reply:Bucilini;As MAC702 stated above,A "flowgauge" is a regulator that has a calibrated orifice to a known flow at certain pressures. While still a regulator, the dial is labeled in CFH. This is accurate enough for most users and are the types that come with most hobbiest MIG equipment and even some industrial units.
Reply:Yup, That's what it sounds like to me. Or you're reading the gauge wrong. I'd go take another close look at the gauge before anything.At 20CFH, and a 125CF tank, you should be able to leave the trigger depressed for 5 hours straight and not run out of gas. So something is SERIOUSLY wrong for you to go through that much gas in a day of Either style, ball-flowgauge or metered orfice gauge are going to provide you with accurate flow-metering. If money is tight just get whatever you can afford as you will not see a significant difference between them. You can't really Jimmy it without the proper part. Without that orifice you might not be able to tweak a reg low enough.
Reply:A two gauge single stage regulator for argon has one gauge reading flow, rather than pressure, it has an outlet connection with approximately 1.2mm orifice. It usually has a maximum outlet pressure of around 250KPA. A regulator with a flowmeter attached to the regulator is normally set to 250KPA non adjustable outlet pressure and the flowmeter has a needle and seat to adjust the orifice for the desired flow.CheersBilly
Reply:Here's a pic of an Argon Regulator with 2 gauges.  One for PSI left in the tank, and the other for CFH.  Ain't modern technology great?  If this is like your regulator, set it a 15 and see what happens.  Porosity, go to 20. Attached Images
Reply:Question....when setting your working CFH left gage do you adjust it with trigger pulled or off? because i know pressure changes when you hit the trigger,say you set it to 20 hit the trigger and it will drop off 20.HOBART IronMan 230 MIGSmith Lifetime WH200 HD O/A Torch
Reply:Set it with the trigger depressed.  If you don't want to spool out wire, release the tension on the wire feed motor.  Just unsnap it, set your CFH, then resnap the spring on the wire feed motor, you are good to go.Sounds like the OP is using an Ox/Acet regulator?MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Ok yea thats how i always do it just wanted to make sure,thanks Mark!HOBART IronMan 230 MIGSmith Lifetime WH200 HD O/A Torch
Reply:If you have the ball type flow meter the best thing you can do to improve your flow use is to change your lines to a smaller id you can purchase them here, net-welding.com, and they have alot of info, if you have the dual gauge flow meter like above their is nothing more that needs to be done, set your flow to 15cfh indoors and adjust > as required.
Reply:Oldiron2, I think its worth mentioning an addition to your post about the details of the two types of flow metering being discussed.Flowgages or regulators with a 'frit' or flow restricting orifice in the outlet fitting MUST be sized to the gas density- Flowmeters can meter and display for each of the most common inert cover gases by rotating the tube and observing the graduations for that gas.  I agree completely that its important to make sure the Flowgage is present; not a just a pressure reducing regulator.  If the the pressure reducing regulator is used without the secondary flow restriction of torch valves, or an orifice there will be no flow control.Flooding a weld zone using a pressure indicator as the sole control will waste 95% of the gas- or more.The picture provided is for a CO2 gas Flowgage as the output pressure indicator dial is labeled - so to use argon on a Flowgage instead of a Thorpe tube based Flowmeter- its critical the orifice is for that gas and the corresponding pressure indicator's dial face should show that gas.Thorpe tubes [glass tubes with 'floating' balls] require the gas to float a ball of a known mass and diameter so the three scales around the tube are graduated to show the level of the flow for each different gas as it lifts a ball of known mass and diameter to a specific level or ht from the base.The reason this is more accurate is the floating effect of the ball's mass over the differential pressure of the orifice frit to control flow.  A Flowmeter is based on gas mass and a Flowgage is based on Cv [constant volume of gas flow through an opening] of the gas through an orifice frit [hole in a plate] to control flow; differential pressure.  The Thorpe tube is more accurate over a much wider range of shop temperatures and different gases compared to the Flowgage and will result in more economical use of expensive gases like argon.Regardless of temperature the gases' mass of flow must lift the ball to float; but gas density by cooling from the regulator's King effect in pressure drop or heating from the shop temp will make a Flowgage have variations which can be expensive and wasteful so the 'low cost' [read less exact] method of measuring gas flow in all conditions- isn't always the less costly Flowgage style of cover gas flow control.  Orifice flow control, differential pressure control, is not temperature compensated like mass flow: frits can't compensate for various conditions of the cover gas like a Thorpe tube does.  Last but not least is the relative accuracy of a 2" Bourdon tube style pressure indicator- not the most reliable and accurate instrument on the scene.  But a ball of fixed mass is very accurate in lift by a flowing MASS of gas; and the scale is easily as long as the 270 degrees of the 2" gauge.mark123,  if you're buying argon, go with a Flowmeter using a Thorpe tube it buys itself before you know it.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Flow meter style regulator............ Attached ImagesMarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Are you using straight Argon in your Mig welder ?Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.Originally Posted by Kevin MorinFlowgages or regulators with a 'frit' or flow restricting orifice in the outlet fitting MUST be sized to the gas density
Reply:Most Regulators are Preset at 50#'s into the flowmeter, so when you pull the trigger, you will get a gush of gas until it gets down to flo settings.  This has been a problem for years, just know what is happening.  JGSMAW,GMAW,FCAW,GTAW,SAW,PAC/PAW/OFCand Shielding Gases.  There all here. :
Reply:Originally Posted by weldgaultMost Regulators are Preset at 50#'s into the flowmeter, so when you pull the trigger, you will get a gush of gas until it gets down to flo settings.  This has been a problem for years, just know what is happening.  JG
Reply:[QUOTE=Kevin Morin;384854]Thorpe tubes [glass tubes with 'floating' balls] require the gas to float a ball of a known mass and diameter so the three scales around the tube are graduated to show the level of the flow for each different gas as it lifts a ball of known mass and diameter to a specific level or ht from the base.Kevin,I didn't know about the different scales on my ball type flow meter til I read this.  Went out and looked and sure enough they are...but not by much in the 20 cfh range.  Also, mine only has two scales...argon and CO2...but that's what I get for buying cheap stuff..oh well.mark123, I bought my (cheap, two scale) ball type flow meter for my TIG for a little less than $50 new delivered.  I also have a "two round gauge psi and cfh" flow regulator/meter for the MIG.  I like the ball type a lot better....it's just more "believable".Miller 211 w/ spool gunMiller Dynasty 200DXLongevity 60i IGBT plasmaO/A w/ crappy chinese torch/gaugesSouth Bend 10K latheGrizzly 4029 10x54 millGrizzly 7x12 hor bandsawangle grnders, bench grnder, bench belt sndr7.5 hp 80gal cmprsor
Reply:BTD,If the tube has an argon scale it seems fine to me.  I've got a few with two scales and few with three scales but I was just pointing out the different gases' mass or molecular wt.I use the Flowmeter (tube and ball) for both MIG and TIG but that's because they're there- not because I'm gearing up.  If I recall those purchases they were a lot more than 50$US more than a few decades ago!damanif your regulator style Flowgage is labeled with that size frit/orifice for that gas-C25; then it makes sense from here- my point was that someone might have the wrong hole size restriction and either have too little of one gas or way too much of another.Lots of TIG torches have gas lenses were you may flow in the 4-5 cfh range.  But most aluminum MIG, I'm a Miracle Metal type of welder, is up around 45-55 cfh of cover so the Flowgage type may be less accurate, at low flows, but works fine for most MIG.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Originally Posted by Kevin Morindamanif your regulator style Flowgage is labeled with that size frit/orifice for that gas-C25; then it makes sense from here-
Reply:daman, I don't know that gas by name or composition, I use a helium argon mix or pure, but I'll wager it's 75/25 so the density/relative gravity is just a bit higher than argon, a little less mixed gas will go through the frit so add 5% -10% to your flow rating on the pressure indicating "flow" gage if the orifice is for pure argon- to compensate for the added carbonD and you should have the flow about right. I think someone already said to skip the readings and dials and turn it down till you worm hole. Keep adding gas until that clears and you're home - mark the dial with a marker and that's the sweet spot.An alternative is to call the mfg.'s tech support line and ask if there is a specific frit/orifice for that gas?Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Originally Posted by Kevin Morindaman, I don't know that gas by name or composition, I use a helium argon mix or pure, but I'll wager it's 75/25 so the density/relative gravity is just a bit higher than argon, a little less mixed gas will go through the frit so add 5% -10% to your flow rating on the pressure indicating "flow" gage if the orifice is for pure argon- to compensate for the added carbonD and you should have the flow about right. I think someone already said to skip the readings and dials and turn it down till you worm hole. Keep adding gas until that clears and you're home - mark the dial with a marker and that's the sweet spot.An alternative is to call the mfg.'s tech support line and ask if there is a specific frit/orifice for that gas?Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Most of the time, the 'calibrated orifice' type flow regulators are just fine.  This part of welding usually ain't rocket science.  Now -making- the regulators is more like rocket science, but using it isn't.  Yes, a 'floating ball' type of flow meter can give you a 'better' flow reading, but the orifice is usually 'close enough'.(one exception is if you kink or pinch off the gas hose somehow.  The ball-type flow meter would show that the flow stopped or was reduced, the flow-regulator type doesn't show any real difference.)Yes, I usually set the flow rate with the gas flowing (gun ON, ie trigger pulled).  I either just turn down the wire feed to min or release the drive rolls, then either snip off the bit of wire or just back wind the spool a little bit to put it back.  I figure that also lets me make sure the hose is purged before I actually start welding.  Some high-end/bigger machines may have modes/settings that let you purge the lines (or do other things, like 'jog' the wire without the gas being on, etc).C25 or pure argon are usually close enough with the flow-regulator type IF the regulator was made/calibrated for those gas types.  Gas mixes with high amounts of helium may be a bit different, and pure CO2 may be a bit different as well (more though that pure CO2 can freeze up a regulator though if the reg wasn't made for pure CO2).  Such details will usually be in the manual for the machine/regulator, so RTFM applies as usual.  For 'small' GMAW or GTAW stuff, usually just set the flow to 20 CFH and you are close enough.  If outside with a possible slight breeze, maybe you push that up to 25 or so CFH.  If inside in still air, maybe lower it to 15 CFH.  Just remember that more flow does not always mean better, too much flow can cause turbulence and/or air-entrainment and result in worse shielding.  Big machine/wires may call for much higher flow rates (like 30-50 CFH), so you might want to double check the recommended gas flow rates on the machine and/or wire parameters if in doubt.  Again, RTFM.  But for 'small' stuff (wire and machine and amps), 20 CFH or there abouts is usually the desired/right setting.  YMMV.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Just called Hobart tech support he said im fine with the factory installed .032 orifice and that it's calibrated for any Argon mix.thanks moonrise..on my 230 when you turn the wire speed to 0 it stops the wire feed so you can purge the hose with out waisting /feeding wire,nice option IMO.Last edited by daman; 04-19-2010 at 11:04 AM.HOBART IronMan 230 MIGSmith Lifetime WH200 HD O/A Torch
Reply:Originally Posted by damanJust called Hobart tech support he said im fine with the factory installed .032 orifice and that it's calibrated for any Argon mix.thanks moonrise..on my 230 when you turn the wire speed to 0 it stops the wire feed so you can purge the hose with out waisting /feeding wire,nice option IMO.
Reply:Yea i got the 15' gun,tried some test runs today inside no wind at 15 CFH and all seemed fine,i just don't like how that needle really drops then climbs back to set pressure.HOBART IronMan 230 MIGSmith Lifetime WH200 HD O/A Torch
Reply:If you really want to get down and get an accurate reading of what your flow is you might be able to rig a flow meter calibration of your own by filling a known container with water flipping it upside down in water stick the hose in it and count how long it takes to displace it, or fill a gallon jug(or measure out one cube) with water, stick the hose in a ballon and time the displacement.If your paying for it, you want to make sure your not wasting it.