open root.

admin

what do you all find easier to put a root pass in?  Thinner wall pipe like 1/4" or thicker like 5/8" ?   I have been trying to run a root in some 3 inch pipe with 1/4" wall and have been having problems blowing through,  Think I will switch to a 3/32 6011 instead of 1/8 and run cooler.
Reply:Run the 1/8" jam it in there and run it like you stole it.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:tried it I end up blowing holes tried turning the amperage down til I had sticking issues.  Tried with 3/32 gap and 1/8' land,  also tried with 1/16" gap and 1/16" land.
Reply:1/16 gap. 1/8 rod I perfer 6010. Don't know if that's an option for you. Start at your 12 o'clock tack and push it in there. Make sure your moving fast and and keep your keyhole tight.  90 to 100 amps is the norm.  The key is to get the arc started tie in to your tack and start moving
Reply:Tozzi does it the way we teach . If you can see the "fire" on your side of the weld push it in more firmly.
Reply:crap I forgot to put in im running vertical up, and have to run vertical up also 6011 is the rod we use for open root its the shops pressure proceedure.Thanks guys
Reply:Just because you don't see fire on your side of pipe doesn't mean your putting your bead in correctly. I sometimes run a bigger gap and let the root flow in gap. I seem to get a mighty fine bead tthat way but keep in mind that's on bigger, thicker pipe
Reply:As aforementioned if your burning a hole to large to control:Move quickerorTurn the amps downIt all depends on fitup for me....Push the rod into the weld enough that the sparks / slag is shooting into the inside of the pipe.It will have a distinctly different sound when you find the sweet spot.Sounds to me like a big batch of Bacon frying in the pan.....SWEET sound. I can hear it across the yard.And to directly answer the question I like welding on thicker pipe. I can turn the heat up and let it rip.1981 Lincoln SA 200Miller Trailblazer 302gMiller 211 Mig Welder w/ AutosetI'm learning to stick metal together
Reply:Man , if your company really wanted a good quality weld , they'd have pipe that small and thin, tig welded.  Im guessing the "blowing holes" is happening after youve rooted nearly half the root .The pipe so thin and heats up quickly.   So, you must let it cool down .   This is how you can let it cool but still be productive.       Have your fitter put a light 1/16 land on bevel & fit it up with 1/16 gap.  Tack with a 3/32  6011  Youll end up with 1/32 gap after tacking.                                                       Now , tack up several fits like that , if possible.   Use 3/32  6011  around 70 amp and root 2 opposing quarters.   Ok , go to another fit that youve tacked up .  Root 2 opposing quarters on it.    Go to a 3rd fit if possible & do the same.  Now go back to 1st fit , it should be cool enough to root last 2 quarter without blowing through.  You see the pattern , im sure.   Hey ! dont take no "sh!t" from that fitter .  Good luck.
Reply:Any pipe under at least 4inch is really tig root teritory, not saying you cant do it with stick, but it's much harder due to the constantly changing electrode angle and the speed you need to go/change the angle. Your most likely blowing holes because you're letting the electrode point upwards as you progress around the vertical section of the pipe or going too slow. Try getting some plate and practising with that first. IMHO a 1/8 stick is far too big for what you're trying to do, and you'll most likely end up with a keyhole you could drop a golf ball through. 1/4 wall pipe is do-able but try using a 3/32 electrode with a 3/32 gap and a generous 3/32mm land (better slighty thicker than thinner).  Is there any reason it has to be done with 6010/11? you might find it easier with a 6013 at about 70amps.This is only what I would do, so don't be afraid to play with the variables to suit your own style.
Reply:as stated above 6011 root is the pressure proceedure for the shop no changing that.   I'll try the 3/32 inch 6011 I can run it a fair bit cooler.  I am just an apprentice, so I do not have years of experience.  Once I master putting a root pass in this small pipe I should find the larger pipes easier ?Thanks Guys.
Reply:Look you can do it. It don't have to be tig. 1/8 rod will work too. Learn to do it with 1/8. I weld with stick around 80% of the time so I know it can be done. I've made numerous 2" sch. 40 butt welds with a 1/8 electrode and let me tell you moving fast a low amps is key. Just keep it up you'll get it. And yes you'll benefit from learning on small pipe because the smaller the pipe diameter the harder the weld. I've made a few 1" butt welds using stick and yes they were x-rayed and passed. I'd have to say those were some of the tuffest welds I've had to make. Once you get your first good root on your 3" you'll feel like a million bucks. Good luck Newfie
Reply:Im sure I will get it.  One thing I have noticed is that my 1/8" land is a little on the slight side (not a full 1/8").  I figure fix that up a nice 3/32 gap and a 1/8 inch rod ran on the cool side 70 amps or so.    if I cant get that to work I will try a 3/32 rod.Last edited by Newfie_1986; 10-09-2010 at 03:43 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Newfie_1986as stated above 6011 root is the pressure proceedure for the shop no changing that.   I'll try the 3/32 inch 6011 I can run it a fair bit cooler.  I am just an apprentice, so I do not have years of experience.  Once I master putting a root pass in this small pipe I should find the larger pipes easier ?Thanks Guys.
Reply:If your blowing holes in your root you have a few potions. Turn your current down, run a tighter root gap or run a thicker land. Either of those will will help you.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Rod angle is huge. Rod pointing into the puddle: bigger more fluid puddle, hotter, bigger keyhole. Rod pointed into gap away from puddle: Smaller puddle and keyhole. Once the amperage is set right (I use 1/8" 6010 at 65-80 amps depending) rod angle my key to keeping the keyhole under control. On the overhead portion I can the a point form on the flux and no whip and pause is necessary.
Reply:3/32 land, 3/32 gap here. 1/8 5P+   around 90 amps. Im almost straight into the bevel, slight drag angle. Sch 40 pipe. Sch 10.... havent messed with....Welded 2" up to 12" so far at work.... 5P+ is my best friend...Lincoln Power MIG 210 MP ( boat anchor )Lincoln Weld-Pac 100 HDHobart IronMan 230Cutmaster 42Jackson NexGenSumner Ultra ClampsDWM120
Reply:The beauty of 6011 is it can be run on AC and either polarity.  Crank that arc force up all the way to ten and run it around 65 amps. By turning the arc force up it  raises the arc voltage at the lower amperages and will keep the rod lit, There is a cheater trick, but give it a practice shot and check out your results. The way to "cheat" a 6011 is to run it on straight polarity, it will basically spray itself in there but keep that rod pushed right in the gap. I prefer to use reverse polarity though. As for technique,go from from 6 oclock to 9 or 3 oclockand change to a new rod from 3 to 12 push that rod in and let it freeze, push and  freeze push and freeze,  as u go up and advance all the spatter and sparks will go to the inside of the pipe and you should do just fine.Last edited by Doug247; 10-11-2010 at 04:42 AM.Reason: pardon the wobbly pop talkNothing Ever Got Done By Quitting, Never Give Up.
Reply:Running on an old dialarc  no arc force to adjust.   I have a lot of new things to try I will try them out this week when I get back to work.   Thanks guys
Reply:3/32 gap and landing. 6010 rod at 55-65 amps. You are beveling right?Rod should be basically straight in. If the keyhole is opening up to much, move faster with wider whips and keep the rod pointing more back. If its not opening, move very slow and point the rod more toward the direction of travel.
Reply:The OP has stated procedure calls for 6011 and whipping the root in is not a good idea on thinner pipe as it inputs more heat. If he runs tight gap,runs correct heat and has a good land he'll get it. Practice in this case will cure his problem
Reply:Wow, so many theorys.    My suggetion is don't expect to make it happen the way it's supposed to happen right now.    You need a little more practice.    Root pass is the hardest pass.     Gap the pipe a little more than you think it needs to be.     Turn your amperage down a little more than it would for the proper gap.    Then practice the keyhole.   You'll burn through, because of the gap being to big, but thats how your going to get the feel for it.   Expect to make mistakes.    Youll also be able to see the puddle better.   I like to make a small circular counterclockwise motion when I get in trouble as far as being to hot or to bic og gap.    That'll also help assure a good tie in.    I'd use 6010 1/8.    The bigger the pipe, the easier.   The wall thickness of your pipe isn't going to play as much as a role in heat variance as you were concerned about  a root pass.    Your ears will play a role in this also.    But to answaer tha question about gap and land, I like a sixteenth and a sixteeenth.
Reply:Ditch the 6011 and get 6010. Read my post and see what I do. It doesn't really matter there isnt a 'correct' way. I used to run a heavier 3/32 land with a 1/8 gap at 65 amps and ran faster then ****.
Reply:Maybe zhillz you should read the entire thread. The guy said he has to run 6011and that its uphill. A tight gap is better on uphill IMO. 65 amps is far to cold for an uphill stringer. But what do I know I only weld pipe for a living day in and day out. I'm done.  Peace
Reply:Originally Posted by slim83Maybe zhillz you should read the entire thread. The guy said he has to run 6011and that its uphill. A tight gap is better on uphill IMO. 65 amps is far to cold for an uphill stringer. But what do I know I only weld pipe for a living day in and day out. I'm done.  PeaceOriginally Posted by zhillzHow is 65 amps to cold? Don't 6010 and 6011 call for about the same amperage? Besides, if he isn't whipping it but dragging, he would want it colder. I run 63-66 amps with a heavy 3/32 land and a 3/32 gap.
Reply:The 6010 I use is a 1/8" rod.I understand your questions and I love to see how yall do your welding since everything I see on here is different from another.In the 2g position, with a 3/32" landing and either a 1/8 gap or 3/32. I like bigger gaps for some reason and I only use 1/8 gapes on 5g to make sure I can get proper penetration on the bottom. The machine is a Lincoln Invertec on stick crisp setting. Arc control is 0 and hot start is half way (5).The reason most like it this low is because of how slow it is to make sure you get back to exactly the right position at the keyhole to make a unison inner root. The main reason though, is to make sure you never get a big ole keyhole. You can even drag it in when you do it like this and all you have to do is keep your rod angle correct. The rod should be parallel with gap and straight in or angled back towards the keyhole slightly. Watch whats going on! You have to literally see the rod penetrate through the land. If you're in the middle of a weld and it's questionable, angle the rod towards the direction of travel or whip wider.
Reply:What do you guys mean by "keyhole"?
Reply:Good for you.  I'm done. I don't know what I'm talking bout been awhile since I was in welding school zhillz.
Reply:Originally Posted by TaidenWhat do you guys mean by "keyhole"?
Reply:Originally Posted by slim83Good for you.  I'm done. I don't know what I'm talking bout been awhile since I was in welding school zhillz.