7018 vertical up and whipping

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I'm out of solutions and hope maybe someone can suggest which direction to go:Using 1/8" rod and 3/16" or even 1/4" mild steel, I can't seem to get control of the weld puddle using 7018 (whipping or weaving). I know going to 3/32" rod would allow lower amps, which works fine. Also, using 6010 or 6011 or 6013 is fairly managable. What I'm trying to accomplish is using a "worst case" situation to make sure I'm able to control the puddle in any situation that might arise. The "bubblegum" appearance seems to occur no matter how fast the arc moves up the seam or how low the amps. I've tried every other variable I can think of - I was hoping someone might be able to tell me what they do at the outer limits of holding a 7018 vertical puddle when the amps are at the lowest setting that will sustain the arc; i.e., is it feasible to hold the whipping motion away from the puddle, say, three seconds to really let it cool down, or would something counterintuitive like turning up the current open up a keyhole and end up being the best option. I realize I'll need to practice before it begins to look decent, but I'm hoping to at least start by working in the right direction.Any thoughts are much appreciated.
Reply:First of all, 7018 is not a whipping rod, so forget everything you know about running a 6011 or 6010.  With 7018, your rod should never leave the puddle.  To do a vertical with 7018, turn the current down a little lower than you would weld in the flat/horizontal or overhead (about 110 amps for 1/8" rod is a good place to start, adjust from there).  Start at the bottom of joint with the rod pointed slightly up.  To keep it from drooping out, pause at the toes and zip across the middle.  Don't hang out in the middle.  This allows filling the toes without over filling the middle.   Don't do a huge wide weave, but you will be moving the rod from side to side a bit, from one side of the puddle to the other.   Hold one side until you see the slag run around, then move to the other side and hold, then move up no more than 1/8" and over to the other side and do it again.   You're building little horizontal shelves of metal to stack atop each other as you go up.  Keep your arc tight.  If it gets too droopy, either your heat is too high, arc length too long, or you're moving too slow or spending too much time in the middle. Start your practice on thicker metal, say 3/8" or thicker, 4" wide by 6" long or more flat bar, so you have enough metal to act as a heat sink to keep from overheating too quickly it while you practice.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:7018 and whipping is a no no. That will leave you with nothing but porosity. Keep your rod tight to the puddle to ensure good shielding.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:What they said. If you can run 6013 up hill 7018 shouldn't give you that much trouble.Tough as nails and damn near as smart
Reply:The welder (power source) means a lot.Some machines just don't have the ideal basic characteristics, or the ability to be "dialed-in" as well for up and overhead that other welders do.This is were the dual-control (amps and volts) machines really shine.What'ya runnin'?What kind of fine adjustment do you have?Good LuckLast edited by denrep; 11-25-2010 at 09:38 PM.
Reply:Amps and volts adjustment on a constant current stick welder?   I have an XMT and  Dialarc and have welded with CST's.  These are all considered excellent stick welding machines.  None of them have a voltage adjustment in constant current stick mode.  There is a 'dig' or 'arc control' adjustment on the XMT and CST, maybe that's what you're referring to by voltage adjustment?MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:The only machine I've used with that feature was a Lincoln SAE 350.  The dial on the left had settings for NORMAL, OVERHEAD, LARGE ELECTRODE and SPECIALTY ELECTRODE from what I remember.
Reply:I would say Desert Rider says it best. The only thing I would add is usually for my first pass I will run a vertical stringer bead with a very slight weave. On v -grooved stock I am weaving from one side of the v to the center of the v and over to the other side of the v, maybe only twice the diameter of the rod. Then my second pass will consist of a triangular weave, holding at the top of the triangle and traveling quickly across the bottom of the triangle building my shelf. Then I will weave my third or more passes as Desert Rider has explained. You just need some repetitive practice and before you know it you'll have it down pat.
Reply:When running a vertical weave for say a T-Joint or a flat groove i like to hold the electrode on one side for almost a full second and then quickly move across to the other side in a nearly horizontal (slightly upward) motion and hold again for another second on the other side. Repeat this process all the way to the end of the weld. Hold the rod at about a 15 degree angle pointing upwards. When you are actually running the bead the slag is going to look terrible, but once you chip it off the weld will look nice. If you have globs of filler after you chip the slag and you are going to run another pass turn your heat up a little and push through the glob quickly. You have to be careful not to hangout in the middle of the bead too long or you are going to get globs.Sorry if I made this more confusing, its hard to translate what your hands do into words. HahaHere is a fillet that Was vertical when I welded it.Cain's Mechanical LLC Southwick, MAwww.cainsmechanical.comRig:-2006 Chevy 2500 utility body-Lincoln Ranger 10-Miller Spectrum -Tons of hand and power toolsAWS D1.2 Structural Steel Certification
Reply:Thanks, more decent and thoughtful tips that a year's worth of reading the literature. I can't figure out how to past a response into the various comments received, but the points that caught me by surprise most were interesting.  DesertRider33 ("DR33")'s 1st post makes me think if I'm in a V-groove thinner than 3/8", it's going to be hard to run a stringer first pass, which I was really trying to do by using the whipping motion. Since part of the solution he offered was to practice on 3/8" plus more total coupon than I normally use, maybe the heat sink effect will slow things down. I think I've been a little hesitant to pause long enough to "see the lage run" on each side of the weave. I keep thinking the puddle's starting to sag, but I'll try that and make a really tight weave on the first pass so it approximates a stringer. Tresi indicated that if I was ok with 6013, then 7018 should be no problem, I think he had the weave rather than whipping in mind, but in truth I'd have to admit 6013 is also right at the limits of holding a decent bead, maybe not quite as bad as 7018, but it still seems to get away from me after say 4 to 6 inches of weld. Again, I'll be trying the "more heat sink" approach to see.I'm almost certain denrep's reference to "dual control" and DR33/Jay O's refinements, actually may be more to the heart of the problem - I've got a Miller Thunderbolt XL (225/150 AC/DC) about 5 years old, and from what I can tell there's no "dig" setting. From what I've read the "dig" feature increases the open circuit voltage initially to get the arc started and then drops off to a lower working amp level. Without that, and with the 7018 rods being a little old and damp, I'm setting the amps for the very lowest I can get an arc to strike, usually it takes a lot of scratch striking before an arc will start, so I have to turn up the amps more than I'd like and that may be the trouble with not only the 7018 but 6013  (1/8")rods as well Reverse Polarity's triangle weave sounds like it will get the arc away from the shelf to let it cool better where the amps are too high because the rod sticks at a lower setting.Finally, Kb1fix's picture gives me what I'll consider the ideal bean profile, I hadn't been sure exactly how close to a flat bead "row of dimes' was possible on vertical. But I wondered what plate thickness and rod diameter he was using - I don't want to make the weave too wide, but if I knew for sure the plate was 1/8", I think I can estimate how many rod widths are allowed. I didn't know you could "push through the glob quickly" to level out the next pass. That makes me think I should be able to feel the tip of the rod pushing against the V-groove on the first pass. That may be another area I was going wrong, I though a short arc had the rod tip still was floating just above the weldment, not touching it - my 7018's always stick when I let the tip touch.I'd better quit for now. Can't tell you all how much your advice means, it's been hard to get any help where I live. Sorry to be so verbose. If anyone sees a major misconception in the foregoing, I'd really appreciate a dope slap.
Reply:You shouldn't be whipping 6013 either. Depending on what you're welding 4-6 inches might be all that you're going to be able to do at one time going up. The farther you go up the hotter that it's going to get.Tough as nails and damn near as smart
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33Amps and volts adjustment on a constant current stick welder?   I have an XMT and  Dialarc and have welded with CST's.  These are all considered excellent stick welding machines.  None of them have a voltage adjustment in constant current stick mode.  There is a 'dig' or 'arc control' adjustment on the XMT and CST, maybe that's what you're referring to by voltage adjustment?
Reply:Thanks for the clarification. One last question: Originally Posted by tresiYou shouldn't be whipping 6013 either[To avoid a misimpression, am I understanding your precaution correctly that even careful vertical up whipping 6013 likely produces hidden defects (inclusion/porosity) a la 7018, or is it simply that the dreaded "droop" with 6013 is just about as difficult to eliminate?] depending on what you're welding 4-6 inches might be all that you're going to be able to do at one time going up. The farther you go up the hotter that it's going to get.
Reply:denrep,  I will have to disagree with your last post.  I think he has a perfectly fine welding unit.  yes, a larger welder would be fine, but many people use and learn on simple crackboxes all the time.  What buster needs it is to see proper rod manipulation.  If you can't weld with the smaller unit you won't be able to weld with a larger one.I am a proponent of a beginner buying 50lbs of electrode and practice.  yes a good teacher will help, but only time under the hood will teach what happens at the puddle.  Lay the rod down flat, hold the rod straight up, change the rod angle to see what happens to the bead.  you can learn alot even when you don't know what you are doing.I would encourage a beginner to buy 50lbs of 6010/11 and then 50 lbs of 7018.  after they have burned them then they can buy a 50lb of 6013s.  those three rods constitute the major classes of rods a person will encounter for steel.  they can add 7014 and 7024, but they are the easiest rods and if they can run the former then they can these.This is a great aid to learn with....http://www.weldingvideos.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by buster1Thanks for the clarification. One last question:Sorry for any unintentionally badgering tone, but I've been really trying to inhale the vast experience you guys bring to bear and I keep getting back more and more to my own possible basic misunderstandings. For instance, would it be correct to assume whipping in general is primarily limited to 6010 or 6011 in the flat position to ensure a controlled keyhole on the first pass with less than 1/4" thickness? I know that's probably an overstatement, but would that be the unstated or understated beacon I may have missed along the way?Again, thank you for your patience. You wouldn't believe the hours I've spend doing thinks wrong despite pouring over the available literature that seems to delight in leaving out something crucial.
Reply:Originally Posted by denrep[I]Anyway, that's no solution for Buster 1 right now.However, I do believe that vertical work with a basic buzz-box would be very difficult to master.[That helps clear the air more than you know, I'd been thinking I had state of the art equipment and no aptitude for the discipline, although I continue to have a sinking feeling most of the guys here could do as well with a 12 volt car battery and jumper cables]Buster 1 - To help work-around  the transformer welder's limitations, the adjustment dilemma and starting issues, you could try striking your electrode in a scrap area and after a few seconds of burn jump to your work with the hot stick. That way your adjustments can be dialed-in closer to your ideal work settings rather than being a compromise for cold start issues. [I'll try it, and to help think my way through in case that's a good start but not all the way home, am I trying to heat up the rod at the outset so it strikes an arc at lower operating amps on the workpiece? Seems like I remember back before I learned to knock the flux off the end of a partially used 7018 rod to expose the metal filler, I had to gradually crank up the amps to get the arc started and it would still stick and turn red before you could break it loose. And that was the end of that rod. But I'll try the 'pre-heat' technique and lt you know.] Oh and work with decent and fresh electrodes. If you could somehow try a higher-end machine, I think you'd find that a basic transformer machine has limitations which you may have reached.Good Luck.