Sparking Tig Welds

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Hello All, Ive done a few searches on the site but just cant find the answer to my problem so hopefully I can get your help. First off - I am a beginner welding, so feel free to correct any of my assumptions or processes.  Setup:Tig welder DC neg set at 55 ampsFoot control4130 Chromoly 1" x .035 roundER70S-6 FillerRed tungstenCleaned Inside & out with silicon wheel then acetone.Problem: The welds begin to spark and make a mess. I often end up with lines in the beads of the weld. I make sure the filler stays within the gas to avoid oxidation but oxidation Im guessing is my problem? Different filler as in ER70s-2?? Any tips would be helpful.
Reply:I changed tungsten to a brand new stick before these photos and a clean unused filler rod as well.
Reply:are you tack welding with another process first?I am always tempted to grab my 6013 rod for tacking because I love it so much. The first tig project I did, tacking with 6013... I'll never do it again. Porosity all where my tacks were. I figured out how to go over them without problems, I just lower the heat at the tack and the tacks bubble out if I hang around long enough.  It works, but next time I will definitely be tacking with the TIG
Reply:1- some pics of your 'SPARKING' welds would be in order--to show the rest of us idiots what a 'SPARKING' weld is.2-since you're starting out and since you haven't gotten or studied any really basicmaterial--like the $25 package on Miller's site--do your self and others a big favorby investing in your education.3-The instant gratification mania of today's world--really doesn't apply totiggin' or any form of welding--it takes study, patience, practice and effort on your part.4-okay--now there's pics.5-Care to clarify what you refer to as sparking?6-If you're starting out--just begin with welding on flat, mild steel pieces in the flat.Last edited by dave powelson; 12-05-2010 at 07:42 PM.Reason: additionBlackbird
Reply:You might be running to hott. Having a gap that big on tubing that thin can be a problem, espicially while your just learning. Is the tubing clean on the inside too?Ya gotta spend money to make money!
Reply:While welding it looks like a "sparkler" except far further toned down. I'm not sure what the best way to describe it but hot "slag" is coming off the part. I classify myself as a beginner welder, I started over a year ago welding a few hours per week but I'm certaintly not a certified welder nor as good as the people on this site. The gap looks bigger than what it really is. The pedal control is never flat out its just where I set the welder.What is a good way to clean the inside of the tube?Same method for tacking.Here is what I have noticed. When starting the bead on another section of the node it starts off ok, no sparking everything seems to be fine, but when joining the current bead to an existing bead, it begins to "spark". Possibly not ending the weld correctly? I make the sure the gas postflow stays at the final resting place and is set at about 6 seconds or so.Last edited by Mocamber; 12-05-2010 at 08:58 PM.
Reply:I'm a beginner welder just like you, and I have found that the only times I get sparking is if my metal is contaminated or if I'm going over a stick tack weld.Does it spark if you are just laying beads on flat sheet/plate?
Reply:Unfortunetly we don't have any flat sheet or plate of chromoly around. The problem isnt an sure fire thing as it doesnt happen everytime, which to me screams the metal is not clean enough. But with the problem mostly occuring when I join an existing weld I begin to wonder. If you look at the first picture the tack went alright (no sparking), after cleaning the part for final weld I started my bead on the existing weld and immediately it began sparking.I will post more pictures tomorrow of different welds.
Reply:what did you use to clean it?
Reply:You'll also get sparks coming off of your TIG weld and porosity if your gas is turned up too high.  Try running a bead at 10CFM above the proper setting and you'll get sparks shooting off and the bead will bubble, oxidize and fill with porosity.  What CFM were you running your gas at?--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:try purging your shielding gas into the tubing to act as a backing gas , thats how weld all my 4130 chassis's  works great  just be sure the area your welding is the lowest point and start the purging a few seconds before you start to weld ,, you can get a purge manifold at any welding supplier ,,
Reply:Taiden,Generally, when you don't have a clue what you're talking about, it's best to STFU.You sure post a lot for a new welder who doesn't know jack.Remember, "Tis often better to remain silent and be thought the fool, than open one's mouth and remove all doubt".Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Did you just get your gas? Maybe you got a bad bottle of gas?Ya gotta spend money to make money!
Reply:http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...me-Moly-Tubing
Reply:The tack weld you show in the first pic has been brushed so we cannot see how badly it was oxidized to begin with.  That tack weld could be oxidized enough on the root side to cause the subsequent weld to be instantly contaminated.  For material 0.035" thick, you can have a tight fitting butt joint with no gap, and this could greatly help in making a small, precise, clean weld.  The tack weld looks poorly fused and wet to the base metal, I wonder if you are doing something weird with excessive arc length, excessive torch angle, and/or melting the filler with the arc and dripping it onto the joint?  The arc should be as tight as possible (approx 1/16"), the torch approx 20 degree push, and the filler added to and melted by the puddle not the arc.Sparking is due to contaminated shielding, as in lack of adequate shielding, or a leak in the system which is pulling in atmosphere, or contaminated base metal, as in not clean or previously oxidized.  Clean base metal, filler metal,  and inert shielding will yield a clean weld pool without sparking.  In rare cases of steel from unknown sources, the steel itself may contain excess oxides/sulfides etc. which can react poorly when welded.The second pic with the sparking weld, shows excessive discoloration and excessive width of discoloration, which indicates a combination of inadequate inert shielding, and excessive heat input presumably from traveling too slow with a low current.  Slow travel with low current causes a excessive heat to conduct out into the base metal, so there is a large heat affected zone (HAZ) with enlarged grain structure and reduced mechanical properties, as well as slower cooling rate so the weld and surrounding metal is hot enough to oxidize as the torch and shielding is moved forward.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIITaiden,Generally, when you don't have a clue what you're talking about, it's best to STFU.You sure post a lot for a new welder who doesn't know jack.Remember, "Tis often better to remain silent and be thought the fool, than open one's mouth and remove all doubt".
Reply:Decent comeback Taiden; let's keep it civil guys. Thank you. And, I have to ask, sparking; grounded well, and then, any oil in the tube? If no on the oil, and good on the ground, then is the torch tip clean, good gas flow?And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIITaiden,Generally, when you don't have a clue what you're talking about, it's best to STFU.You sure post a lot for a new welder who doesn't know jack.Remember, "Tis often better to remain silent and be thought the fool, than open one's mouth and remove all doubt".
Reply:Originally Posted by jakeruI reported your post for its uncalled for, hateful, unnecessarily strong language, and I hope the mods are listening.  Specifically, your language of STFU = "Shut the F*ck Up", "dont have a clue", and "dont know jack" references are inappropriate, unnecessarily strong, hateful language, which I hope the mods give you a time out for.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIITaiden,Generally, when you don't have a clue what you're talking about, it's best to STFU.You sure post a lot for a new welder who doesn't know jack.Remember, "Tis often better to remain silent and be thought the fool, than open one's mouth and remove all doubt".
Reply:Originally Posted by jakeruFrom what I can see, Taiden has contributed more of value to this thread than you have: http://weldingweb.com/showpost.php?p...5&postcount=12I reported your post for its uncalled for, hateful, unnecessarily strong language, and I hope the mods are listening.  Specifically, your language of STFU = "Shut the F*ck Up", "dont have a clue", and "dont know jack" references are inappropriate, unnecessarily strong, hateful language, which I hope the mods give you a time out for.
Reply:Hey all, The bottle Is set at 15 CFMIts not a new bottle either, I would much rather blame myself than the equipment as I am the inexperienced one.The filler was a new stick and was wiped clean.I'l post pictures of the torch/tungsten setup after work.The tubes are initally coated in oil, is "sparking" consistent with oil residue? Possibly the inside of the tube is not clean enough?And the ground is clipped onto the tube itself so all should be well there.
Reply:You said you were cleaning it with acetone, that should remove all of the oil residue quite easily.
Reply:What kind of cup are you using on the torch?  If you don't have a gas lens one would help, but i have used a standard cup and achieved plenty good welds.  FWIW i can weld mild or 4130 with no cleaning other than what was used for fitting and get a clean weld, if it's very important I will wire wheel the ends, but never have I had to degreaser with solvent to get a good weld.Somehow your getting contamination, probably gas shielding involved.     Your getting contamination from somewhere.Syncrowave 350Coolmate 3Millermatic 251Spoolmatic 30A
Reply:No Lens and I believe it is a #7 cup (not sure if cups have a standard numbering system). The distance from the end of the cup to the tungsten is about quarter inch.Sorry all, just trying to help based off my limited experience, since I too as a newbie TIG welder have had 'sparking welds.'I shall remain quiet if that's what the masses desire.
Reply:The gas flow rate seems a bit high to me.  I'd drop it down to about 11cfh for that thickness material.Those folks with more experience than I, feel free to chime in here if I'm off base --Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:I'm with Pulser here on the slow travel. He mentioned the oxidation, grain growth etc, I'll add that .25 carbon and above will also decarb at heat above 1300F. Even if you brush the surface when you approach a previous bead that has decarbed the parent metal surface at the edge of the bead, you'll see floaters in the air and a wet red ring at the edge of the original bead and sometimes even in front of and around your puddle.Also as mentioned a lot of other stuff will cause little stuff floating up around the sheilding cloud and frosting the point of your tungsten.1/4" seems like a lot of stickout without a lense for small tubing, get the angle a little wrong and the sheilding runs away.Matt
Reply:You should get out of the habbit of fitting up your joints badly, as a beginer your making life hard for yourself and when you come to build something they will warp like hell.  Also be a good idea to tack the joint properly before you start welding itLast edited by Baila La Pinza; 12-06-2010 at 01:23 PM.
Reply:Sometimes the OP gets good information from experienced folks who know what they're talking about (best case scenario).Sometimes a post gets so "poluted" with BS from people who don't know what they're talking about, that the "experienced guys" just throw up their hands and move on.In the case of this thread, the OP has gotten some excellent guidance combined with a lot of gobbly gook that just serves to confuse the issue.  In other words, he's gotten good information combined with BS.  How is a new guy supposed to tell who's right.It's frustrating for some of us "older guys" to see a newbie come on the boards full of P & V with a string of "how do I hook up my torch", "what amps should I use", "what tungsten should I use", etc. etc. and then a week later the same poster is back giving advice to someone with the same experience that they have.For the OP, here's a couple of suggestions.  Most have already been covered before so it's just a summary of things you'll want to try.Cleaning with tig is critical.  I suspect your "sparking" is largely a result of improper prep.Fitup is critical with tubing.  Way too much gap for that thinwall tubing.  No gap required in this case.Backgassing/purge not required in this case.Try a flow rate of 12-16 CFHReduce your tungsten stickout.  Sharpen to a pencil point.Maintain a "shorter arc".  Way too large a HAZTry to maintain a rather quick but consistent travel speed.  Practice on flat material before you take on circumference welds.  Maintain a consistent "angle of attack" with the torch.Again, cleanliness is next to godliness in tig welding.  Sanding and an acetone wipedown will pay dividends.  "Sparking" can almost always be attributed to contamination.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:TIG = clean things well BEFORE welding.Of all the arc welding processes, TIG tolerates the least amount of dirt/crud in or on the metal being welded.Next, thin-wall or thin section anything pretty much needs a good tight fit-up.  No gaps, no spaces.  You need to weld METAL, not air.  (thin sections -usually- do not have a problem with lack-of-penetration given even a little bit of power from the welder and a little bit of skill from the operator).  Leave the gaps for the thicker sections.Gas flow of about 15 cfh, give or take a bit depending on cup size and what not, is about right for that size weld.Consistent stick-out and consistent torch-to-workpiece angle is needed.And +1 on practice on some flat workpieces before working on tubing.  Dial things in (parameters -and- positioning) beforehand as much as possible.Clean it, clean it, clean it, practice, get good fit-up, and be consistent.  Oh, and clean it before you TIG it.  Clean it of -anything- that is not clean unoxidized metal.  No rust, no oil, no paint, no grease, no mill scale, no other oxides, just clean shiny metal.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:I can see situations where someone who recently learned how to do something may actually be in a better situation to give relevant advise to someone else who needs to learn it, than someone who learned how a long time ago (someone who may have more years of experience), but who may have forgotten what its like to be in that learning situation.So in my opinion, *anyone* who wishes to help someone else on weldingweb, as long as they are not making misrepresentations or attempts to deceive, etc should be free to do so, without being personally attacked, which is really inappropriate IMO.Sundown, if you think your advise is so golden, then be a big man, and let your advise stand on its own without the crutch of "taking out" others' contributions through unprovoked personal attacks.If you feel previously given advise to a problem is incorrect, then explain factually why or based on our experience etc, you believe it to be so.  Simply denigrating others contributions to try and make yourself look better is not helpful for the community, IMO.Thank you for at least shifting gears in your latest post on this thread, and at least providing some potentially helpful content, which granted I have indeed found to be insightful at times in the past.I just want to keep on hearing everyone else's opinion too.  And I want to participate in a respectful environment.
Reply:Originally Posted by jakeruI can see situations where someone who recently learned how to do something may actually be in a better situation to give relevant advise to someone else who needs to learn it, than someone who learned how a long time ago (someone who may have more years of experience), but who may have forgotten what its like to be in that learning situation.So in my opinion, *anyone* who wishes to help someone else on weldingweb, as long as they are not making misrepresentations or attempts to deceive, etc should be free to do so, without being personally attacked, which is really inappropriate IMO.Sundown, if you think your advise is so golden, then be a big man, and let your advise stand on its own without the crutch of "taking out" others' contributions through unprovoked personal attacks.If you feel previously given advise to a problem is incorrect, then explain factually why or based on our experience etc, you believe it to be so.  Simply denigrating others contributions to try and make yourself look better is not helpful for the community, IMO.Thank you for at least shifting gears in your latest post on this thread, and at least providing some potentially helpful content, which granted I have indeed found to be insightful at times in the past.I just want to keep on hearing everyone else's opinion too.  And I want to participate in a respectful environment.
Reply:Gentlemen!!Please go back to your corners and take a breather..Nobody makes the "rules" around here about conduct and such except the Admins.So please give it a break.Before I over rule all of ya! ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat Bastardif you feel something is out of line then use the report feature
Reply:Sorry Mr. Jakeru, So the next time a new welder starts babbling on about tack welding with stick (which obviously wasn't the OP's problem), I'll just let the OP sit there scratching his head.Then there was the expert recommendation about backgassing.  Even told the OP where to get the plugs.  Brilliant.Yea, I guess I just been tig welding too long to know how to do anything properly.  Maybe you'd like to come to my shop and show me how to do it.  After all, I didn't have the advantage of learning the process on U-Tube.  (He11, now that I think about it, I don't think we even had color TV when I learned tig)Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:my thought process, right or wrong was this1) I see no haz in first pic, does that mean he cleaned up the tack weld after making it? I think so2) since I assume he cleaned it up afterwards, is it possible he tacked with another process and was cleaning up the gunk? possible3) hmm last time I tacked with another process (6013) I got "sparking tig welds" when making a pass. Maybe this could help4) post: "hey, are you using another process to tack? because when I tack with stick and weld with tig, I get sparking tig welds"I don't see how this is not constructive, but I understand why a bunch of newbie weldors spouting out random stuff could be not helpful. I just don't see my post as random stuff. Maybe that's my newbie talking, in which case, I will refrain from trying to be helpful in any other threads regarding welding issues.Had he been a veteran weldor, I would have not posted.Also, since it is obvious that I am still learning, a few reasons why my post was not helpful would have been helpful to me. I am here to learn, not to teach... but sometimes trying to help out another person and getting corrected is a way to learn that what you thought was right, was wrong.Last edited by Taiden; 12-06-2010 at 05:29 PM.
Reply:Good God....didn't any of you read zap's post?Enough already.Get back to actually answering the OP question or it's getting locked down.http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:more food for thoughtAre grinding the Tungsten correctly?http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...Book_Chpt4.pdfEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:edit: nevermind
Reply:I will agree with Sundown.Close up the gap on the tubing. For .035" a tight fit is what you want.Less tungsten stick-out...and a shorter arc.What diameter filler are you using?http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:Originally Posted by jakeruI can see situations where someone who recently learned how to do something may actually be in a better situation to give relevant advise to someone else who needs to learn it, than someone who learned how a long time ago (someone who may have more years of experience), but who may have forgotten what its like to be in that learning situation.So in my opinion, *anyone* who wishes to help someone else on weldingweb, as long as they are not making misrepresentations or attempts to deceive, etc should be free to do so, without being personally attacked, which is really inappropriate IMO.Sundown, if you think your advise is so golden, then be a big man, and let your advise stand on its own without the crutch of "taking out" others' contributions through unprovoked personal attacks.If you feel previously given advise to a problem is incorrect, then explain factually why or based on our experience etc, you believe it to be so.  Simply denigrating others contributions to try and make yourself look better is not helpful for the community, IMO.Thank you for at least shifting gears in your latest post on this thread, and at least providing some potentially helpful content, which granted I have indeed found to be insightful at times in the past.I just want to keep on hearing everyone else's opinion too.  And I want to participate in a respectful environment.
Reply:Originally Posted by Mocamber.The tubes are initally coated in oil, is "sparking" consistent with oil residue? Possibly the inside of the tube is not clean enough?
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabWhat diameter filler are you using?
Reply:Another post point when welding SS especially, but it can be an issue for steel sheet also: As stated multiple times, the open gap will allow air in, and monkey up the works. Sometimes it is a good choice to coat the back of the seam to be welded with Solar flux. With SS, it is often crucial where you can not properly back purge. I have seen sheet material-4130, and some CR sheet that was not happy with me. Solar flux on the seam backside, and the use of a copper plate under the weld help tremendously. It's a shame that SO MUCH of tig welding is all about the setup and prep. We get used to a simple weld, and it might be 20 seconds of pedal time, to 2 hours of pedal time. But all easy stuff, and we forget the true preparation that is called for with a 'spec' weld. When we take a whole lot of time and prep the joint 'properly'...... we tend to see fantastic welds. If you are not familiar with all the prep and protocol for a certain weld that you REALLY want to see come out tip top, spend a few minutes searching the words weld prep, tig weld preparation, joint preparation, copper backer, back purge, wind block. There are about 10,000 posts tied to all of this, with SO many specialized methods to get the most from welds. It was a thought I had today, when I saw an empty tub of solar flux at work.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:I agree rojo, the prep/setup takes longer then just welding the piece alone.Ya gotta spend money to make money!
Reply:Thanks all for the info. I believe i have the problem sorted out and I'm putting the blame on inadequant cleaning of the oil residue on the inside of the tube. Heres a picture of another weld with proper/better cleaning of the tube. Yall can poke at my welds all you want, I'm just happy they are clean and its up to me now BTW this tube is much thicker at .065
Reply:It's always good when you figure it out...Clean is EVERYTHING when doing anything TIG...When doing tubing like you show the inside needs to be cleaned as far as you can get inside..The more the merrier I always say..The oil and funk will wick to heat and before you know it...yuk.You have the skill set now you need to work on your "Smoothness"...You will get there but it don't happen overnight..Keep at it....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:roflmao........nubs and pro tig welders  and a painter........i vote : contamination  poor sheilding        thermal arc 252i  -  millermatic 350P -   miller XMT, cp300ts, 30a 22a feeders, buttload of other millers, handfull of lincolns, couple of esabs  -   Hypertherm 1250 G3