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I have been asked to build a pair of basic handrails, the catch is that they are slightly curved (so I guess not so basic). I have researched how to do it and I will basically end up either making a jig or getting a hossfield bender. Anyways I was wondering if anyone could clue me in on what something like this goes for. The cap rail is 1 3/4" wide, 1/2" pickets, 1" posts, 1" channel top and bottom, spaced 5" on center (I know not code but I have that worked out with contractor) and approx 7' long each side. I attached a picture of the curve. I am usually at $60/foot for straight stairs but not sure how much more I can charge for this. Also mounting holes will need to be core drilled into blue stone. I have researched the forum about the coring but if anyone has anything else to add such as depth I would love to hear. Thanks in advance Attached Imageswww.somethingdifferentftw.blogspot.com
Reply:As far as pricing goes I'm not much help, I just use the usual formula of (materials+markup+labor+markup+equipment rental+markup+overhead+markup)=price. I will add that $60/ft is giving it away, though. I haven't sold rail for that price in over 7 or 8 years unless it's f.o.b. primed, my shop w/o installation.Regarding core drilling generally an absolute minimum of 4" will be needed and more is better. I like 6" or better but many pours aren't that deep, so you do what you can. For a 1" newel post I'd use a 2" bit. For post setting grout I like Emacogrip or Rockite brand non shrink grout. If this is going in a stacked masonry application, like brick or block, if you drill past one brick or block deep make sure to mix the grout real thick so it doesn't leak out through the crack between the layers. If you need to color match the grout to the block I like to leave the non shrink grout about 1/2" below flush then use a regular brick setting grout mix with the colored mix for the last 1/2".If you've never used these types of grout before be careful, it can be messy and will stain other surfaces. If you get in on something be sure to clean before it dries or your f***ed.Cure times are pretty fast, too, about 10 to 15 minutes or less on hot days, a little more in cold weather, and the thicker it's mixed the quicker it'll cure, too.Brian LeonardAppalachian Ironworks L.L.C.434 Long Branch Rd, Marshall, NC 28753828 649 9966828 702 [email protected]
Reply:Wow, thank you for dropping some knowledge on me. What, if you don't mind me asking, is a more realistic price for straight runs? My specialty is more in the one off custom pieces, furniture etc. Always learning and passionate about what I do. Thank you for the feedbackwww.somethingdifferentftw.blogspot.com
Reply:Try about $125- $150 per foot.
Reply:Originally Posted by walkerTry about $125- $150 per foot.
Reply:Originally Posted by WelderDaveWow, thank you for dropping some knowledge on me. What, if you don't mind me asking, is a more realistic price for straight runs? My specialty is more in the one off custom pieces, furniture etc. Always learning and passionate about what I do. Thank you for the feedback
Reply:Brian,I sincerely appreciate the time you have taken to respond, I also appreciate the kind words. I understand where you are coming from on pricing, and no you are not being an a**. I am VERY serious about my business and the work I do. I guess I just looked to this site as a starting point on the research. My intention was not to have everyone here bid the job for me I guess more of a ballpark. My clientele is growing and I need to grow with it. Again thank you for the detailed response@walker, thank you for the response as wellwww.somethingdifferentftw.blogspot.com
Reply:Brian, thanks also for the general run down. It's nice to sometimes have an idea what prices are for other types of projects that I don't do, in the back of my mind when customers are kicking tires and want an idea just how much a project in general might run. I don't do much concrete and steps any longer like I used to do when I was younger and my buddy was alive and in the busness, but occasionally I run into one or two that want a quote and usually just suggest they get a seperate estimate, if the township requires rails. It's nice to have a ballpark number like $75-100/ ft plus or so to give them so they get an idea that they need to add at least $500-750 to the steps at a minimum for small back door steps..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:You wrote 'not to code, but have it worked out with the contractor'. What?You have to make the rail meet Code, no matter what. And 1/2 inch square pickets/balusters spaced 5 inch OC is no-way-in-hell to Code AFAIK. Code requirements for stair and railings are often rather picky. Find out exactly what the Code requirements in your area are and make -sure- that you meet them. Cause it would suck to be off by even 1/8 inch on some spacing requirement and not meet the Code requirements and then have to remove/redo/eat the job. If that happens, any and all profit is Poof-Gone.Nice write-up and explanation Brian, The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:I ran into a situation this spring for a customer where that design would work even though it isn't "code". Code said they needed hand rails on the steps even though the the code said they didn't need gaurd rails for the top landing. They didn't need any balusters at all, just a hand rail because they had more than 3 consecutive risers and the top was less than 3' (IIRC) from grade, because the yard dropped away from the house. I could have simply done away with the need for a rail, if I could have just pushed some extra dirt up against the 1st step and "deleated" one riser.Doesn't look like this applies here, but some times the code is goofy like what I ran into..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseYou wrote 'not to code, but have it worked out with the contractor'. What?You have to make the rail meet Code, no matter what. And 1/2 inch square pickets/balusters spaced 5 inch OC is no-way-in-hell to Code AFAIK. Code requirements for stair and railings are often rather picky. Find out exactly what the Code requirements in your area are and make -sure- that you meet them. Cause it would suck to be off by even 1/8 inch on some spacing requirement and not meet the Code requirements and then have to remove/redo/eat the job. If that happens, any and all profit is Poof-Gone.Nice write-up and explanation Brian,
Reply:DSW, I had a similar thing happen. The house had a stepped beds and the total rise was less than 3 feet, but there were 5 risers. One inspector said it didn't need to meet code and another did. The clients design was definitally not to code. I ended up building them to code. I found out later the home owner later modified them to have them his way.
Reply:welder dave i really like the website. your stuff looks amazing!
Reply:These are all very valid points. I am definitely rethinking this one, the last handrail I did was directly for a customer and I refused to do it unless the spacing was 4" on center. I was afraid of the same thing especially safety as he has two small children. I appreciate the positive and constructive criticism as opposed to an all out blast session. I am not afraid to walk away from the job but considering the drawings I got didn't have a scale attached to them I think 4" on center will be fine as well as any other mods for code.Thanks to all for the responses and feedback, I really like this forum.@sixxgeeee Thank you so much I appreciate the kind words!www.somethingdifferentftw.blogspot.com
Reply:My core business is Balustrading.We have these non compliant requests all the time , usually from the Home-owner very rarely from the Arch or Builder.Our policy is if it is not in code , we will not do it.OK a lot easier to say when you've been established for years and always have plenty of work.ButEven with waivers etc it is simply not worth the risk ,nor in another light appropriate for a moral and professional tradesman.If a builder is asking for out of code work you need to question their integrity and if you want to work for them, the public is a bit different (i.e. their motives of form over function coupled with a possible ignorance of consequences both physical and legal ) but hold to your principals.Remember codes are there for a reason , not just to piss off tradesmen.My 2c Good LuckBrett ThompsonLast edited by Brett; 09-24-2011 at 04:27 PM.A good guess is better than a bad measurement
Reply:try 3-15/16" in spacing, not 4" on center.
Reply:1" spindle 5" on center Leaves 4" in between. Perfectly legal
Reply:Hey Dave Just looking on your web sitewww.somethingdifferentftw.blogspot.com Your little Custom tables are similar to the tables I did inhttp://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=38941and your larger table , very similar to mine inhttp://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=47542Great minds think alike (or as my Mum says "fools seldom differ" )BrettA good guess is better than a bad measurement
Reply:As far as pricing goes, I recommend timing your builds and keeping up with all your materials and supplies used. Figure out your operating expenses per hour (light, water, sewer, hourly pay) as well. If you do not know your bottom line then you cannot figure out your profit margin. I worked at a structural steel plant where the owner would time certain builds without people knowing. About 2-3 times a year he would time everyday stuff also. All these formulas of $$ per foot maybe correct, but you will not know exactly until you know your operating expense. Most companies like to run between 50% - 75% profit margin (profit margin is not markup).
Reply:do yall have to add tax to end products and services? If you do not then don't mark up your materials. only add more to your profit margin or mark up your labor costs. I ran in to an issue in the south where one of the contractors was marking up material and the irs slapped his hand for "retailing" his material he bought wholesale and not adding tax.
Reply:I've been following this thread with real interest. I just wanted to say thanks to Brian and welderdave and the other posters for the frank discussion of bidding railing jobs. It's always a challenge to balance answering the customer's question, "How much will this cost?", in a timely manner, without using guesswork. I've not done any railing or ornamental ironwork recently, and only once in the past. As others have already mentioned, pricing will differ by region due to material costs, labor costs, costs for subbing out work, and what the market will bear. But it's helpful to see some other examples of costing just for a sanity check on my own calculations.As someone who hasn't really specialized in one area of metal fab, it's tough to find enough data in my job records to come up with good estimates to use for ballparking jobs. As I'm sure you all have found at one time or another, it's tough to come up with a good shortcut for initial estimates; e.g. $$$$/ft of finished product, $$$/lb of raw material required, $$$/piece fabricated...Scott Young, thanks for the interesting tidbit on how the IRS views material markup and sales tax. I collect sales tax on all work, unless the customer provides a certificate stating they're exempt. I file these certificates away forever. I do not typically mark up materials, but rather add a fixed % of time to the labor estimate to attempt to cover time spent on drawings, parts and material ordering, and pickup, etc. This takes more time, and probably eats into my profit margin; as my estimates on "non-billable" time are chroniclly low. But it sounds like this is safer from a tax regulation perspective.David R started a thread for business owners to disuss these sorts of issues. But it never took off here. Does anybody know of other forums where business owners field these kinds of business questions? I'm talking about a generic small business owners discussion group, not necessarily a metal fab forum.I've used nolo.org on occasion to look up tax law questions. But other than that, I don't know of any other public forums for this kind of topic...Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:Originally Posted by A_DAB_will_doI've been following this thread with real interest. I just wanted to say thanks to Brian and welderdave and the other posters for the frank discussion of bidding railing jobs. It's always a challenge to balance answering the customer's question, "How much will this cost?", in a timely manner, without using guesswork. I've not done any railing or ornamental ironwork recently, and only once in the past. As others have already mentioned, pricing will differ by region due to material costs, labor costs, costs for subbing out work, and what the market will bear. But it's helpful to see some other examples of costing just for a sanity check on my own calculations.As someone who hasn't really specialized in one area of metal fab, it's tough to find enough data in my job records to come up with good estimates to use for ballparking jobs. As I'm sure you all have found at one time or another, it's tough to come up with a good shortcut for initial estimates; e.g. $$$$/ft of finished product, $$$/lb of raw material required, $$$/piece fabricated...Scott Young, thanks for the interesting tidbit on how the IRS views material markup and sales tax. I collect sales tax on all work, unless the customer provides a certificate stating they're exempt. I file these certificates away forever. I do not typically mark up materials, but rather add a fixed % of time to the labor estimate to attempt to cover time spent on drawings, parts and material ordering, and pickup, etc. This takes more time, and probably eats into my profit margin; as my estimates on "non-billable" time are chroniclly low. But it sounds like this is safer from a tax regulation perspective.David R started a thread for business owners to disuss these sorts of issues. But it never took off here. Does anybody know of other forums where business owners field these kinds of business questions? I'm talking about a generic small business owners discussion group, not necessarily a metal fab forum.I've used nolo.org on occasion to look up tax law questions. But other than that, I don't know of any other public forums for this kind of topic...
Reply:Originally Posted by BrettHey Dave Just looking on your web sitewww.somethingdifferentftw.blogspot.com Your little Custom tables are similar to the tables I did inhttp://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=38941and your larger table , very similar to mine inhttp://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=47542Great minds think alike (or as my Mum says "fools seldom differ" )Brett
Reply:Update, I spoke with the contractor and all is well, they have no issue with compliance. They liked the price...maybe a little to much but they are adding a couple of things so I can make up a little in that. Again thanks to all that have commented and given their feedback. I truly feel fortunate to be a member.www.somethingdifferentftw.blogspot.com
Reply:Originally Posted by WelderDaveUpdate, I spoke with the contractor and all is well, they have no issue with compliance. They liked the price...maybe a little to much but they are adding a couple of things so I can make up a little in that. Again thanks to all that have commented and given their feedback. I truly feel fortunate to be a member.I would love to get the hossfeld, waiting to see if my other idea works or not. No doubt I would use that bender for everything but the die sets...whew they are priced pretty healthy, lol. As for the 4x4 stuff, my automotive days are done, a decade was enough for me. Thanks again. If you ever make your way to Atlanta hit me up.www.somethingdifferentftw.blogspot.com
Reply:So I finally got this handrail finished and thought I would post a picture. Thanks again to all who gave input much appreciated. Big thanks to Troy at Swag Offroad for the dies to roll flat stock on end and the weld on wings for the HF Tubing roller. Attached Imageswww.somethingdifferentftw.blogspot.com
Reply:Looks very good!Brian LeonardAppalachian Ironworks L.L.C.434 Long Branch Rd, Marshall, NC 28753828 649 9966828 702 [email protected]
Reply:Thank you, definitely a learning experience. What I learned was to find someone with the proper tools to roll those rails, lol.www.somethingdifferentftw.blogspot.com
Reply:Congratulations. Looks good.
Reply:Great job. |
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发表于 2021-8-31 23:32:02