Cheap tig cooler?

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Ok,   first let me begin by stating that i am in no way an expert in TIG.  But I have an AC/DC machine that has more than enough oomph to do scratch start with, therefore; I plan on building a cart that will support SS tig. heres my question.    I would like to get a water cooled torch.  I need a cost conscious water cooler.  I was thinking of a plastic drum, filled with water, a submersible water pump ( like those used in aquariums) and pumping out or in with 2 lines.I know it cant be that easy....so what am I missing?PS....IF Sundown III is on this forum.....STAY OFF MY THREAD !!
Reply:Thought for you and something we had discussed here. We have a small TIG machine and a water cooled torch is hardly ever necessary. But we thought if the need came up get a watercooled torch and just feed it off a water tap, put the other end in the drain and put a flow valve in the line.For occasional use the water usage would not be that high.As a hobbyist welder an air cooled does 90% of my welding without overheating the torch so water cooled would very very rarely get used.
Reply:I would not have a TIG machine WITHOUT a watercooled torch.You did not say which TIG machine you own.You said "WE" so I assume it is a business?If so you will need a watercooled WP20 Weldcraft torch.The smallest water cooler is a Miller coolmate 1 about $476.00Well worth it too. I just gave you valuable info. Will save you a lot of time.An aquarium pump will not work. You need 50 lbs. of pressure.You will need a solenoid /adapter also.The cooler needs a radiator and a coolant tank.It needs a muffin fan and other safety switches.Not worth doing it all yourself unless you have lots of time to study the designs and work out all the problems and make it safe for other people.You are being a little secretive too."we"=who?Welding machine type? etc.,.Building a cart for SS ? Makes no sense.Scratch start TIG very limited. Almost not worth water cooling.If you're running a business you need to get the right equipment or no one will even want the job when they see your rig.AWS certified welding inspectorAWS certified welder
Reply:Wonder if the OP has ever heard of the "search" feature.Not like there haven't been hundreds of threads on "homemade tig coolers".LMAO.Over on Hobart, the OP wants to start with a 55gal drum.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by darthwelderI need a cost conscious water cooler.
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomI would not have a TIG machine WITHOUT a watercooled torch.You did not say which TIG machine you own.You said "WE" so I assume it is a business?
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPIf you wanna do it on the cheap, I've seen people hook up their torch to a garden hose, and let the return hose drain out into the parking lot.
Reply:I just knew that this:   Originally Posted by darthwelderI know it cant be that easy....so what am I missing?PS....IF Sundown III is on this forum.....STAY OFF MY THREAD !!
Reply:Don, I went back and reread my OP....i never said..."we".  Did i miss something?50 psi huh? wow, that really sounds like a lot.  I know for a fact that the pumps I have wont do near that.thank you so much for the advice!!
Reply:Originally Posted by Mario428Looks like you are replying to the 2 initial post at once. The OP did not say "we" at all but I did. Yes I am talking about my business and "we" is my welder and I, I do not weld at work, am a hobbyist that works at home.eg.  http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=49942While I guess I appreciate the "valuable info" my welder has been welding for me for 6+ years and has only complained 3-4 times about a job that got his torch too hot to hold and they were very short term workAgain the OP sounded to me like he was talking a TIG welder in his home shop and I know many people who's home machine is scratch start. My home machine is "lift arc" but the business machine has full foot pedal control BTW it is a Lincoln Precision 175.Any other questions fire away, glad to answer if I can.
Reply:Originally Posted by darthwelderDon, I went back and reread my OP....i never said..."we".  Did i miss something?50 psi huh? wow, that really sounds like a lot.  I know for a fact that the pumps I have wont do near that.thank you so much for the advice!!
Reply:Yes.  my first thought was to use a 55 gallon plastic drum with a large submersible pump to pump water to my torch to help keep it cool.  you see, Im a college student working on a graduate degree...I have NO extra money.  I have 3 friends working on their thesis statements....and they asked if I would help them by fabbing a lot of the special pcs. for their project.  Sundown 1/3 took offense to my not sharing details with him about the others guys work.  That led to a bit of a p*ss*ng contest in which he made an absolute @$$ of himself on the hobart thread.  Man, how some people think that they are special or better than others, it cracks me up.   Anyway.....so here I am, looking for ideas, from real welders, not youtube nitwits.  So when Sundown 1/3 gets her panties all bunched up over a question.....and tells me to go google it...I just ignore her.  Reminds me of this mouthy sergeant we had one time.  always with the mouth.  So one night, in Iraq, when he went to relieve himself, we get a radio call and move out.....oops!!  someone got left behind?!!  LOL....a long walk home for that guy.  He sure got an attitude adjustment though.  Made it through his tour with out ever missing his ride...just learned to play nice with others!Anyway, thanx.  Feel free to share your ideas if you have any.  Keep it respectful, and you wont miss your ride!
Reply:couldn't the waste water be feed back into the drain instead of run out on the street with just a tap hookup? from what I understand the run off shouldn't be such a great volume really anyway, why wouldn't that work? I've always seen guys say run it off in the driveway, wonder why not just back into the drain, I mean there should be no contamination or any other reason I can see why that shouldn't work, no?miller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:Originally Posted by darthwelderOk,    I would like to get a water cooled torch.  I need a cost conscious water cooler.  I was thinking of a plastic drum, filled with water, a submersible water pump ( like those used in aquariums) and pumping out or in with 2 lines.
Reply:Thanks so much for your input, and i will keep an eye out for that...THANX!!
Reply:another thing to consider if you go the hose route is have your water pressure tested. ive had to install a couple reducers in houses here close to the water tower that were well over 50 psi350P 30A spool gun cut master 51  syncro 250 other stuff " take a dog off the street and make him prosper and he will not bite you sad the same cannot be said for man" i didnt use punctuation just to piss you off
Reply:You need a water cooled torch, a fusible plug so if your water fails your will not burn everything up, your best source of info is on ckworldwide I believe they have a bunch of schematics for the torch layout if you have never seen it before or arc-zone.And some pics I found online, your going to need a procon type pump and they can be found, you have to be resourceful or carbonator pump. A cooling fin can be found at the back of a refigarator...old refrigarator/freezer that is.Build to siut your needs.Good Luck Attached ImagesLast edited by pistolnoon; 02-12-2011 at 04:47 AM.
Reply:I would really like to thank everyone so far for their time and their desire to share info.  Not everyone is as open to the questions of others are you guys are, and I prosper as the result.  I hope I can return the favor soon.  Thank You.
Reply:i found an old drinking fountain and robbed the radiator and fan out of it, the fan runs on 110v..  i'm going to use a harbor freight fountain pump rated at 268 gph to start with...  i will wire both the pump and fan on a single switch..    i'm planning on mounting the tank, submersible pump , radiator&fan setup in the bottom part of a small craftsman 3 drawer toolbox, vent the tool box on both ends, and run the hoses and mount the on/off switch on the side of the tool box.. then i'll mount the tig welder on top of the box...adding this in... i also have thought about using an old computer power supply and using a small agricultural sprayer pump (sprayer like you pull behind a 4-wheeler) and also using 3 or 4 computer fans mounted on a decent aluminum radiator of some type, such as a transmission cooler..Last edited by brucer; 02-12-2011 at 06:16 AM.tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...ooler+everlasthttp://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...ooler+everlasthttp://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...ooler+everlastI plan to build one mysdlf for now I just run the water to the grass. Here is a picture of a auto AC heat exchange I will be using with adapter tips for hose connections.have funTom Attached ImagesLast edited by acourtjester; 02-12-2011 at 09:52 AM.Reason: add
Reply:Originally Posted by bruceri found an old drinking fountain and robbed the radiator and fan out of it, the fan runs on 110v..  i'm going to use a harbor freight fountain pump rated at 268 gph to start with...  i will wire both the pump and fan on a single switch..    i'm planning on mounting the tank, submersible pump , radiator&fan setup in the bottom part of a small craftsman 3 drawer toolbox, vent the tool box on both ends, and run the hoses and mount the on/off switch on the side of the tool box.. then i'll mount the tig welder on top of the box...adding this in... i also have thought about using an old computer power supply and using a small agricultural sprayer pump (sprayer like you pull behind a 4-wheeler) and also using 3 or 4 computer fans mounted on a decent aluminum radiator of some type, such as a transmission cooler..
Reply:I found a full wp-9fv setup at a local pawn shop for 25 bucks.  it even had a gas lens in it, but no tungsten.  it looks to be in good condition, Ill find out soon.therefore, Im good for now.  Thanks guys!
Reply:Working in a power plant setting most of my career air cooled torches are all we use.  Alot of the 9 series & 17 series torches.  I use the 17 series for my own use & have never over heated it.  I do have on in my shop that is water cooled & love it for the flex it gives you from the cable & hose as compared to the thick rubber air cooled whip.  I don't know how much you plan to use it but i personaly would save the money & buy an air cooled torch.  Sounds like you have found a good deal on one i would jump on it.  Just try not to bend your flex head to much while the torch is hot it will break, if you do bend it while its cool i have never broke one.  Good luck broI stand behind my welding, I just won't stand under it!
Reply:Darthwelder, application would be the factor I would put most thought in when choosing air or water cooled.  If you plan on burning full pieces of tig wire one after another, air cooled wont work, it will burn you and the torch up.  On the other hand water cooled torch will stay cool all day long.  I use Weldtec watercooled performance series torch I believe its a cp 380 or 300 and havent had  any trouble and I weld all day.  Hope this helps.
Reply:Darth, eBay features (has in the past) lots of Procon pumps that will work great for cooling pumps and not budget breakers.These pumps have a screw adjusted pressure by pass that allows you to start the flow into your torch, then 'dial' in or adjust the pressure until water returns from the torch.If find this handy and have built a few water cooled systems this way.  I use aluminum tanks that corrode internally from the copper ions in the return water from the torch or torch leads.  But they last a while with a little glycol added to the water and save the effort of fin coolers and radiators? I like being able to 'dial' in the pressure needed to keep that to a minimum in the overall system.http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trk...All-Categoriesthey've worked well and are affordable if you're providing the 'rest' of the system?Cheers,Kevin MorinI have a little quibble with Kevin's approach of using the PRV (Pressure Relief Valve) on a Procon pump to control pressure at the torch.  Procon specifically advises against using the pressure relief valve for this purpose, although I acknowledge that it is a workable, albeit far from ideal solution.  Procon states that the PRV built into their pumps is an overpressure protective device to avoid prompt pump failure due to excess pressure, not a system pressure control device.A procon pump is a positive displacement pump.  That means that it puts out a constant volume of fluid at a given speed (normally 1725 RPM when driven directly with the usual induction motor), relatively independent of system pressure.  The fluid system will have an approximately fixed flow resistance (analogous to an electrical resistance in a circuit).  "Approximately" because the resistance witll change slightly with temperature, but this variation is negligible for this discussion.Using a positive displacement pump with excess capacity to drive a fluid system with a fixed resistance means that the pressure will rise until (1) something pops, usually a hose, (2) the system operates at excess pressure (and wear) if nothing gives out, or (3) a PRV vents excess fluid volume.  In either of the last two cases you would be heating the water not only by cooling the torch but also with exactly the amount by which actual motor power exceeds the power required to pump the water through the fluid system at correct pressure.  This excess heating is not negligible but without research I am not knowlegeable enough to give you a number.  As a rough extimate, say that the pump consumes it's full rated 1/4HP (typical) and half the pumped fluid is dumped through a pressure relief valve.  That's 1/8 HP of power going into heating the water (and eroding the PRV seat).  In this example, that's (746 watts/HP)/8, or about 93 watts.  That's not a huge amount of power except that (1) you have to get rid of it in your cooling system, and (2) it's actually worse than it sounds if you are using the PRV on the pump because the excess (heated) water goes right back into the pump inlet to be heated again in a tight loop with the result that the pump operates constantly at excessive temperature and wears out prematurely.If you insist in using a pump with excess capacity with a PRV to limit pressure, at least use a separate PRV that vents into the reserve tank where the excess heat has a chance of being dissipated before returning to the pump.The ideal solution is to match the displacement of the pump to the flow through your fluid system at the recommended system pressure.  Note that there is no excess cost with this approach other than the effort to arrive at a proper design and the inconvenience and possible delay of finding the optimum pump size at the price you are willing to pay.  My recommendation is to use a garden hose setup to measure flow through your fluid system at the recommended pressure.  If your water pressure differs from the torch design pressure, you can make an approximate correction in required flow by a simple ratio of the pressures.  Measure flow with a bucket of known volume and a stopwatch.Look up the proper Procon pump size using the design curves on their website.  Wait until the proper size pump comes up on ebay or your local salvage shops or reward Procon for providing a range of pumps by paying list price.Put the system together with a happy, long-lived pump without fear of bursting hoses and without having to use oversized radiators and fans.Here in California it is a sin (and probably also illegal) to use a once-through city water dump system.  That's why we use the water that flows while we wait for hot water to arrive at the sink to flush toilets.awrightLast edited by awright; 02-18-2011 at 04:21 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by acourtjesterhttp://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...ooler+everlasthttp://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...ooler+everlasthttp://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...ooler+everlastI plan to build one mysdlf for now I just run the water to the grass. Here is a picture of a auto AC heat exchange I will be using with adapter tips for hose connections.have funTom
Reply:Originally Posted by unknownWorking in a power plant setting most of my career air cooled torches are all we use.  Alot of the 9 series & 17 series torches.  I use the 17 series for my own use & have never over heated it.  I do have on in my shop that is water cooled & love it for the flex it gives you from the cable & hose as compared to the thick rubber air cooled whip.  I don't know how much you plan to use it but i personaly would save the money & buy an air cooled torch.  Sounds like you have found a good deal on one i would jump on it.  Just try not to bend your flex head to much while the torch is hot it will break, if you do bend it while its cool i have never broke one.  Good luck bro
Reply:Originally Posted by awrightI have a little quibble with Kevin's approach of using the PRV (Pressure Relief Valve) on a Procon pump to control pressure at the torch.  Procon specifically advises against using the pressure relief valve for this purpose, although I acknowledge that it is a workable, albeit far from ideal solution.  Procon states that the PRV built into their pumps is an overpressure protective device to avoid prompt pump failure due to excess pressure, not a system pressure control device.A procon pump is a positive displacement pump.  That means that it puts out a constant volume of fluid at a given speed (normally 1725 RPM when driven directly with the usual induction motor), relatively independent of system pressure.  The fluid system will have an approximately fixed flow resistance (analogous to an electrical resistance in a circuit).  "Approximately" because the resistance witll change slightly with temperature, but this variation is negligible for this discussion.Using a positive displacement pump with excess capacity to drive a fluid system with a fixed resistance means that the pressure will rise until (1) something pops, usually a hose, (2) the system operates at excess pressure (and wear) if nothing gives out, or (3) a PRV vents excess fluid volume.  In either of the last two cases you would be heating the water not only by cooling the torch but also with exactly the amount by which actual motor power exceeds the power required to pump the water through the fluid system at correct pressure.  This excess heating is not negligible but without research I am not knowlegeable enough to give you a number.  As a rough extimate, say that the pump consumes it's full rated 1/4HP (typical) and half the pumped fluid is dumped through a pressure relief valve.  That's 1/8 HP of power going into heating the water (and eroding the PRV seat).  In this example, that's (746 watts/HP)/8, or about 93 watts.  That's not a huge amount of power except that (1) you have to get rid of it in your cooling system, and (2) it's actually worse than it sounds if you are using the PRV on the pump because the excess (heated) water goes right back into the pump inlet to be heated again in a tight loop with the result that the pump operates constantly at excessive temperature and wears out prematurely.If you insist in using a pump with excess capacity with a PRV to limit pressure, at least use a separate PRV that vents into the reserve tank where the excess heat has a chance of being dissipated before returning to the pump.The ideal solution is to match the displacement of the pump to the flow through your fluid system at the recommended system pressure.  Note that there is no excess cost with this approach other than the effort to arrive at a proper design and the inconvenience and possible delay of finding the optimum pump size at the price you are willing to pay.  My recommendation is to use a garden hose setup to measure flow through your fluid system at the recommended pressure.  If your water pressure differs from the torch design pressure, you can make an approximate correction in required flow by a simple ratio of the pressures.  Measure flow with a bucket of known volume and a stopwatch.Look up the proper Procon pump size using the design curves on their website.  Wait until the proper size pump comes up on ebay or your local salvage shops or reward Procon for providing a range of pumps by paying list price.Put the system together with a happy, long-lived pump without fear of bursting hoses and without having to use oversized radiators and fans.Here in California it is a sin (and probably also illegal) to use a once-through city water dump system.  That's why we use the water that flows while we wait for hot water to arrive at the sink to flush toilets.awright
Reply:I have a procon pump, motor and some lines for sale here if you are interested:http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=49766
Reply:Originally Posted by Kevin MorinDarth, eBay features (has in the past) lots of Procon pumps that will work great for cooling pumps and not budget breakers.These pumps have a screw adjusted pressure by pass that allows you to start the flow into your torch, then 'dial' in or adjust the pressure until water returns from the torch.If find this handy and have built a few water cooled systems this way.  I use aluminum tanks that corrode internally from the copper ions in the return water from the torch or torch leads.  But they last a while with a little glycol added to the water and save the effort of fin coolers and radiators? I like being able to 'dial' in the pressure needed to keep that to a minimum in the overall system.http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trk...All-Categoriesthey've worked well and are affordable if you're providing the 'rest' of the system?Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:LMAO,Air cooled torch with gas valve on torch (no gas solonoid).Learning tig?Hope the LWS is "real close" cause he's going to be swapping a lot of 125's.Additionally, argon (per cu. ft.) is about twice as expensive when purchased in a 125 vs a 330 cu. ft. bottle.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIILMAO,Air cooled torch with gas valve on torch (no gas solonoid).Learning tig?Hope the LWS is "real close" cause he's going to be swapping a lot of 125's.Additionally, argon (per cu. ft.) is about twice as expensive when purchased in a 125 vs a 330 cu. ft. bottle.
Reply:I feel a SUNDOWN III diatribe coming on......
Reply:Darth,Actually it was very easy to see right thru your line of BS as soon as you started posting.You may be able to buffalo a bunch of college students about how much you know about welding/fabrication, but when you try the same crap with guys who know the business, they see right thru you.Actually, I hope you keep posting.  It's always good for "the joke of the day".Furthermore, if you had the first clue about what you're talking about, you'd understand that the previous comments were spot on.When learning tig, you'll use considerably more argon than you will once you become proficient (if that ever happens).An air cooled torch with a gas valve will use more argon than a tig welder equipped with a gas solonoid.  You'll use more gas (preflow) prior to striking an arc, and you'll use more gas post weld because you manually have to turn off the flow of gas.  That's not even discussing the amount of trashed tungstens because you forgot to turn on the gas before you struck the arc.  A 125 cu ft. bottle of argon is NOT an economical size bottle to be learning tig with.  I have a couple 125's but they're used for portable use only.  My 125's cost me $52 to fill.  On the other hand, a 330 costs me $82.   You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out the cost/cu. ft. differential.If you're doing any "serious tig welding", you'll be going thru a 125 in less than a day.  If you wish to spend your time swapping bottles rather than learning to weld, then that's your business.  The gas supplier will love you.Your "attitude" is what will prevent you from ever becoming proficient at welding.  You ask a bunch of "off the wall" questions, and when you don't get the response you wanted to hear, you become confrontational and want to argue with people.  You've made no effort, outside of asking a bunch of ??? questions on an internet board, to further your knowledge of welding.  Several reference resources have been recommended to you, but no, you already "know it all".You insult the welding community by implying that all YOU need is the right tig welder and you're ready to fab up a rather complex prototype project (involving SS, thin aluminum, and mild steel).  You seem to totally disregard the hours, weeks, months of "hood time" necessary to develop the skills required to complete such a project.  You're at a point where "YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW" and are too thickheaded to understand that.I've taught a lot of guys how to tig weld over the years, but you wouldn't make it thru the first two hours.I just think it's sad that you've been able to hoodwink a group of grad students into thinking you know more about welding than you really do.  Hopefully they'll wake up and find someone who knows what they're talking about so that they can get their project completed.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIDarth,Actually it was very easy to see right thru your line of BS as soon as you started posting.You may be able to buffalo a bunch of college students about how much you know about welding/fabrication, but when you try the same crap with guys who know the business, they see right thru you.Actually, I hope you keep posting.  It's always good for "the joke of the day".Furthermore, if you had the first clue about what you're talking about, you'd understand that the previous comments were spot on.When learning tig, you'll use considerably more argon than you will once you become proficient (if that ever happens).An air cooled torch with a gas valve will use more argon than a tig welder equipped with a gas solonoid.  You'll use more gas (preflow) prior to striking an arc, and you'll use more gas post weld because you manually have to turn off the flow of gas.  That's not even discussing the amount of trashed tungstens because you forgot to turn on the gas before you struck the arc.  A 125 cu ft. bottle of argon is NOT an economical size bottle to be learning tig with.  I have a couple 125's but they're used for portable use only.  My 125's cost me $52 to fill.  On the other hand, a 330 costs me $82.   You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out the cost/cu. ft. differential.If you're doing any "serious tig welding", you'll be going thru a 125 in less than a day.  If you wish to spend your time swapping bottles rather than learning to weld, then that's your business.  The gas supplier will love you.Your "attitude" is what will prevent you from ever becoming proficient at welding.  You ask a bunch of "off the wall" questions, and when you don't get the response you wanted to hear, you become confrontational and want to argue with people.  You've made no effort, outside of asking a bunch of ??? questions on an internet board, to further your knowledge of welding.  Several reference resources have been recommended to you, but no, you already "know it all".You insult the welding community by implying that all YOU need is the right tig welder and you're ready to fab up a rather complex prototype project (involving SS, thin aluminum, and mild steel).  You seem to totally disregard the hours, weeks, months of "hood time" necessary to develop the skills required to complete such a project.  You're at a point where "YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW" and are too thickheaded to understand that.I've taught a lot of guys how to tig weld over the years, but you wouldn't make it thru the first two hours.I just think it's sad that you've been able to hoodwink a group of grad students into thinking you know more about welding than you really do.  Hopefully they'll wake up and find someone who knows what they're talking about so that they can get their project completed.
Reply:GO AWAY?Heck no.Reading your posts is my "Joke of the Day".Just when I begin to think they can't get any dumber than the last post, they do.You may have been able to BS your way thru life, but that won't work on a welding forum.Actually, it's pretty comical to watch you stumble, fumble and fail.  I just hope the grad students you've hoodwinked wake up and realize how full of BS you are, before you take them down with you.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Hey darth,You will have to live with & accept the fact that anyone posting on any forum is subject to a response from any other member. Most of the forums are a wealth of information that is valuable to many. It is just a media to get help or learn. If you find issue with another member, you can use the "ignore" function, or simply not post anything if you don't want to be challenged regarding information.DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Originally Posted by BlueweldersA fountain pump will be a high volume/low pressure pump.The torch only passes a small volume of water and the pressure has to be relatively high.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIYou may have been able to BS your way thru life, but that won't work on a welding forum.Actually, it's pretty comical to watch you stumble, fumble and fail.  I just hope the grad students you've hoodwinked wake up and realize how full of BS you are, before you take them down with you.
Reply:A/C Guy, I think Bluewelders was referring to a pump for a pool fountain, not a drinking fountain.  In any case, most common centrifugal pumps,  sump, utility, pool, fountain, condensate, or coolant, are not going to provide the pressure required for torch cooling and most would provide much higher flow than required.  Someone cited 50 PSI which seem to be about the number I recall for torch cooling.  The coolant passages in a torch are of necessity small to minimize the bulk of the torch.  This implies low volume at relatively high pressure (at least high relative to the pressure generated by a pool pump).  The "head" developed by most common small centrifugal pumps varies from a foot or two to about 32 feet which equates to one atmosphere or 15 PSI.  Sure, there are special purpose, high power centrifugal pumps with much highe rated outlet pressure but it would be truly silly to use one of them for torch cooling.awright
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIDarth,Actually it was very easy to see right thru your line of BS as soon as you started posting.You may be able to buffalo a bunch of college students about how much you know about welding/fabrication, but when you try the same crap with guys who know the business, they see right thru you.Actually, I hope you keep posting.  It's always good for "the joke of the day".Furthermore, if you had the first clue about what you're talking about, you'd understand that the previous comments were spot on.When learning tig, you'll use considerably more argon than you will once you become proficient (if that ever happens).An air cooled torch with a gas valve will use more argon than a tig welder equipped with a gas solonoid.  You'll use more gas (preflow) prior to striking an arc, and you'll use more gas post weld because you manually have to turn off the flow of gas.  That's not even discussing the amount of trashed tungstens because you forgot to turn on the gas before you struck the arc.  A 125 cu ft. bottle of argon is NOT an economical size bottle to be learning tig with.  I have a couple 125's but they're used for portable use only.  My 125's cost me $52 to fill.  On the other hand, a 330 costs me $82.   You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out the cost/cu. ft. differential.If you're doing any "serious tig welding", you'll be going thru a 125 in less than a day.  If you wish to spend your time swapping bottles rather than learning to weld, then that's your business.  The gas supplier will love you.Your "attitude" is what will prevent you from ever becoming proficient at welding.  You ask a bunch of "off the wall" questions, and when you don't get the response you wanted to hear, you become confrontational and want to argue with people.  You've made no effort, outside of asking a bunch of ??? questions on an internet board, to further your knowledge of welding.  Several reference resources have been recommended to you, but no, you already "know it all".You insult the welding community by implying that all YOU need is the right tig welder and you're ready to fab up a rather complex prototype project (involving SS, thin aluminum, and mild steel).  You seem to totally disregard the hours, weeks, months of "hood time" necessary to develop the skills required to complete such a project.  You're at a point where "YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW" and are too thickheaded to understand that.I've taught a lot of guys how to tig weld over the years, but you wouldn't make it thru the first two hours.I just think it's sad that you've been able to hoodwink a group of grad students into thinking you know more about welding than you really do.  Hopefully they'll wake up and find someone who knows what they're talking about so that they can get their project completed.
Reply:Originally Posted by yorkiepapHey darth,You will have to live with & accept the fact that anyone posting on any forum is subject to a response from any other member. Most of the forums are a wealth of information that is valuable to many. It is just a media to get help or learn. If you find issue with another member, you can use the "ignore" function, or simply not post anything if you don't want to be challenged regarding information.Denny
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomI agree with SundownIII on this, and all of his facts are correct.He is cruel but fair.
Reply:awright, I have never contacted Procon about their pump use policies so it was interesting to see your statement the PSV, which is located as a bypass port between the inlet and outlet, shouldn't be used to reduce system pressure.I've used this pump since 1989 that way, and its been on several torches.  First on a Cobramatic (MK products) then on a WeldCraft 300A hand TIG torch now on a TIG gun and its done pretty well on all of them.I guess my ignorance was/is bliss?  On each hose set I had to use two pair of 25-30' hoses to get the stretch out from the power supplies so that is about 50-60' out and about the same back to tank. In all the systems I've used an aluminum 'box' tank of whatever material was handy when I needed to make the tank.  It was originally supplied with a steel tank and all of the applications the pump has outlived the tanks.I don't agree with Procon's ideas (policies) because the obvious fact of the longevity and reliability of the applications I've had this pump in.Its interesting to know, about the idea of not using a PSV to regulate bypass to keep a reduced pressure in the delivery header; but I can't agree its not a good way to reduce pressure.  I think the volume being bypassed may be worth a close look? If water is incompressible, then a few drops will make the difference between doubling the output pressure. In hydro-testing with 15-30,000 piston pumps (Spague Telednye or Haskel)  the higher pressure pumps only deliver about one or two drops per stroke.  In a vane pump bypassing those dozen or two drops of water apparently won't damage the Procon or I'd have seen some higher failure and lower reliability.I'd have liked to wait till the "right" pump came by but I had to cool those torches, so I did.  I still use that same pump today, and its still pumping pretty good, so I think loosening the spring loaded bypass valve to keep the system pressure down and control the flow rate in the hoses is as good as any other method?flow in a restritive system is proportional to the pressure differential inlet to outlet and the length and size of the restrictive orifice.  If the restriction can be considered fixed ? (torches and hoses cumulative bores and lengths of passages) then the remaining variable is pressure DP over the system.As the Procon vane pumps will generate a large amount of pressure if working against a higher resistance then I think it a great idea to allow the pump's bypass to be adjusted so the flow is at the lowest pressure possible to get flow. As you note, hoses will eventually suffer, fittings may leak and the motor is pulling more amps than needed building up higher than required pressure.So by using the bypass to reduce pump output to control overall header pressure you get all the things that are beneficial and none that are damaging.  The bypass is a simple hardened orifice and ceramic valve plug that lifts and allows flow past.The lower the water pressure the less erosion potential of the valve trim faces- so the small bypass pressure means less and less damage.I'm regulating the pressure down around 30-35 psi not at the pump's 100 psi capacity, and as that valve is designed to lift and bypass at the full pressure it is hardened and these faces seem to be doing fine at the lower pressures.I think Procon is focused on the user who is regulating at the higher of the pump's output pressures?  I can see that if  you were nearly deadheading this pump say, 100 to 150 PSI and you used the bypass to control pressure you'd be introducing a 100psi injection into the inlet side port, that would reduce the inlet suction and the pump would/could easily loose suction lift if the bypass closed when it has just had a jet of 100psi water flood the inlet. Without a check valve in the inlet suction line and a flooded suction port the lift might be gone and the pump might cavitate and that I can see would damage the vanes and end plates.As to heat in the pumps outlet water? I don't think that operating the pump at 30% of design pressure is really creating enough heat to be of any concern in bypass. The tank and hoses, guns and pump all remain nearly cool to the touch until the TIG system is running continually above 225A for more than an hour at a time.I just bought another pump for another water cooled MIG torch and I anticipate doing the same thing with that one.  I really don't even know which model of Procon pump I bought, or the flow or pressure ratings, I'll just rely on the bypass to keep from over pressuring.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:[QUOTE=awright;475355]I have a little quibble with Kevin's approach of using the PRV (Pressure Relief Valve) on a Procon pump to control pressure at the torch.  Procon specifically advises against using the pressure relief valve for this purpose, although I acknowledge that it is a workable, albeit far from ideal solution.  Procon states that the PRV built into their pumps is an overpressure protective device to avoid prompt pump failure due to excess pressure, not a system pressure control device.Kevin Morin beat me to the punch on responding to the above statement and pointed out that these Procon pumps are routinely used on commercial tig coolers and they come from the factory with their pressure regulators set to produce about 50 psi of pressure in the torch lines, but you can certainly turn the regulator up on them to get them over 100 psi,  so I don't think AWRIGHT was correct in his assesment.  Bernard has been using the internal pressure bypass for about 20 years.  I have built a number of coolers over the years using regular carbonator Procon pumps with their pressure bypass set at 50 psi with absolutely no problems.  Here is the most recent pump I built for my Everlast that is available on YouTube:  Miller Syncrowave 350Millermatic 252/ 30A spoolgunMiller Bobcat 225g w/ 3545 spoolgunLincoln PowerArc4000Lincoln 175 Mig  Lincoln 135 Mig Everlast 250EX TigCentury ac/dc 230 amp stickVictor O/AHypertherm 1000 plasma
Reply:[quote=DougAustinTX;476367] Originally Posted by awrightI have a little quibble with Kevin's approach of using the PRV (Pressure Relief Valve) on a Procon pump to control pressure at the torch.  Procon specifically advises against using the pressure relief valve for this purpose, although I acknowledge that it is a workable, albeit far from ideal solution.  Procon states that the PRV built into their pumps is an overpressure protective device to avoid prompt pump failure due to excess pressure, not a system pressure control device.Kevin Morin beat me to the punch on responding to the above statement and pointed out that these Procon pumps are routinely used on commercial tig coolers and they come from the factory with their pressure regulators set to produce about 50 psi of pressure in the torch lines, but you can certainly turn the regulator up on them to get them over 100 psi,  so I don't think AWRIGHT was correct in his assesment.  Bernard has been using the internal pressure bypass for about 20 years.  I have built a number of coolers over the years using regular carbonator Procon pumps with their pressure bypass set at 50 psi with absolutely no problems.  Here is the most recent pump I built for my Everlast that is available on YouTube:
Reply:Darth, calm down man.  I don't know what happened on the other forums but in this thread SD posted some useful information and I don't see any attacks.  It seems as if he has bruised your ego and you're taking offense to it.  The only way to learn is to accept criticism.  I've been TIG welding for 3 days now so trust me I'm getting a lot of criticism from the guys at the shop.    I don't have any choice but to take it in stride and learn what I can from it.  Total beginner question, but how do you know if an air cooled torch is overheated?
Reply:Well, Kevin, the proof is in the pudding.  Between you and DougAustinTX I'm sure you two have infinitely more direct experience with actual use of the Procon than I do.  My comments are from a theoretical basis, which I still defend (theoretically), but I certainly can't challenge your experience.It's interesting that the current Procon website no longer has the fairly strong advisory against use of the PRV to regulate pump outlet pressure that was there when I started (but never finished) rebuilding a salvage Miller tig cooler several years ago.  I picked two of the coolers up in a lot of welding equipment at an auction but didn't (and don't) have a water cooled torch setup.  Maybe someday...They do have the rather mild statement in their "Suggested Piping Layout," ...we recommend by-passing any flow of the relief valve directly back into the reservoir, rather than back into the inlet feed line.  If the inlet feed line is used, introduce the by-pass flow at least 12 inches upstream of the pump inlet port."  Elsewhere they mention the issue of heating of the by-passed fluid but nowhere do I find the prohibition I cited.  Perhaps they are acknowledging the common practice of using the PRV to regulate line pressure and are quietly retreating from their earlier prohibition.Incidentally, they do offer a separate PRV that can be vented back to the reservoir.  My primary position is that it is best to match the pump to the load and avoid venting.  My fall-back position is that it would be better to use the separate PRV and vent to the reservoir in preference to using the integreal PRV.  However, I can see when I'm outgunned and no troops are about to come over the horizon and rescue me so I am abandoning the field.awright
Reply:Originally Posted by Dave_KTotal beginner question, but how do you know if an air cooled torch is overheated?