Ductile iron welding

admin

I'm about to take on a project on a broken backhoe boom, on my Case 580, and I want to increase my chances of success. The piece that is broken is the lower portion of the main boom where it connects the the swing cradle. There are some complications I need to address with this break. Picture the lower 3' of the boom as an "H". The left lower leg is broken off about one inch below the cross bar and that last inch has a crack at the point of where the cross bar connects. The lower right side has a crack where the cross bar connects. The cracks go all the way through. The whole boom is one casting, so the cross bar is a cased joint to the lower legs.My question is grinding. How do I grind out the cracks around the cross bar? Do I grind both sides till the crack is gone then lay my root weld? What angle is best for my weld bevel? Do I bevel one side or both?Using High NI with pre and post heat along with peening, estimating 24 hr cool down.Any suggestions other than have some else do it will be appreciated.
Reply:Pictures would help alot.I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Have to work on that. Me and computers don't work well together. Will have to get someone to show me how.Pic's will be forthcoming.
Reply:Is this is the Case ductile iron with the "Do not weld" cast into it? Below is the quoted answer elsewhere about a similar repair."i have repaired cracks in ductile iron pipe.[emergency only].it is a bear.preheat ,7018 rods on low amps, post heat.and it will still crack on you. i would not repair anything ductile that was going to have much of a load on it."There it is...how to do it and the possible result. Ductile iron boom parts...I don't like !You have to try welding it...the new parts are too expensive not to. I hope it works for ya, but I don't think it will.
Reply:Here is a long discussion about it:http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...oe-HELP!/page4Good luck on your repair and post some pics Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Case was a pioneer when it came to replacing castings with welded parts int the 70's and 80's, they led the way.  I wonder why they switched back?   There should be plenty of those towers in wrecking yards, depending on which 580 you have.
Reply:Originally Posted by blackbartCase was a pioneer when it came to replacing castings with welded parts int the 70's and 80's, they led the way.  I wonder why they switched back?
Reply:Not sure what era your back hoe is, but in my short stint as a supervisor for the case new Holland warranty team (construction equipment side) I know that there are recalls/fix as fail programs fire the case back hoe booms. May want to contact your local dealer with the units serial number and check for any open recalls... How I'm not too far off subject in your thread, but figured it may help. Good luck.Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
Reply:Originally Posted by BradTNIs this is the Case ductile iron with the "Do not weld" cast into it? Below is the quoted answer elsewhere about a similar repair."i have repaired cracks in ductile iron pipe.[emergency only].it is a bear.preheat ,7018 rods on low amps, post heat.and it will still crack on you. i would not repair anything ductile that was going to have much of a load on it."There it is...how to do it and the possible result. Ductile iron boom parts...I don't like !You have to try welding it...the new parts are too expensive not to. I hope it works for ya, but I don't think it will.
Reply:Here are the pic's. Hope they made it.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveHere is a long discussion about it:http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...oe-HELP!/page4Good luck on your repair and post some pics Dave J.
Reply:Yikes!!  That's quite a break you've got to fix.Sounds like you've done your research and have a plan - good luck and hopefully she's back in the dirt soon Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:You're gonna have to line bore the holes when you're done...........and............I belive it's gonna be a short lived repair.....just sayin from experience..........good luck, you're going to need it6 Miller Big Blue 600 Air Paks2 Miller 400D6 Lincoln LN-25's4 Miller Xtreme 12VS2 Miller Dimension 812 4 Climax BW-3000Z bore welders Hypertherm 65 and 85Bug-O Track BugPair of Welpers
Reply:....one more thing............If I were to take on that one, which at this point in my career I probably wouldn't..........I would use 3076 Miller Big Blue 600 Air Paks2 Miller 400D6 Lincoln LN-25's4 Miller Xtreme 12VS2 Miller Dimension 812 4 Climax BW-3000Z bore welders Hypertherm 65 and 85Bug-O Track BugPair of Welpers
Reply:Originally Posted by ExpatWelderYou're gonna have to line bore the holes when you're done...........and............I belive it's gonna be a short lived repair.....just sayin from experience..........good luck, you're going to need it
Reply:Correct, the attachment holes.   250 DC is plenty for 1/8" or 5/32" 3076 Miller Big Blue 600 Air Paks2 Miller 400D6 Lincoln LN-25's4 Miller Xtreme 12VS2 Miller Dimension 812 4 Climax BW-3000Z bore welders Hypertherm 65 and 85Bug-O Track BugPair of Welpers
Reply:OooppsGuess I was reading the wrong info. I see that the heat range is about the same as Ni 99 1/8 to 5/32.SorryIs there a specific brand for this 307? I'd like to get some and try them out.Last edited by HissSplat; 07-26-2013 at 01:46 PM.
Reply:I use ESAB 307-16, I have not had very good luck with the Lincoln stuff.Last edited by ExpatWelder; 07-26-2013 at 01:55 PM.Reason: wrong number6 Miller Big Blue 600 Air Paks2 Miller 400D6 Lincoln LN-25's4 Miller Xtreme 12VS2 Miller Dimension 812 4 Climax BW-3000Z bore welders Hypertherm 65 and 85Bug-O Track BugPair of Welpers
Reply:I think if you can replace or do other way, it will be much better. But if u hv to weld it anyway, you can find some Ni-Based consumable which has high elongation. And try to weld it with Low Heat Imput procedure.Good luck!Sent from my GT-N7100 using vnWelding.netWelding Engineering Community of Vietnam - vnWelding.netwww.vnwelding.net/en
Reply:ESAB 67.43 to be specific.6 Miller Big Blue 600 Air Paks2 Miller 400D6 Lincoln LN-25's4 Miller Xtreme 12VS2 Miller Dimension 812 4 Climax BW-3000Z bore welders Hypertherm 65 and 85Bug-O Track BugPair of Welpers
Reply:Thanks.
Reply:I have owned backhoes for years.  Most popular backhoe around here was John  Deere and I have had a couple of them.  I remember when they put the natural gas in this area, the contractor used Case 580C's and I was impressed with them.  I really liked the over center backhoe store position, seems it put more weight  on the front end, the Deeres were always light in the front end even with a counterweight.  Used to have to carry the front bucket loaded when roading it at high speed to keep the front end from bouncing.As they say, "long story short", the reason I never did buy a Case b/h was the cast iron backhoe boom.  Very expensive to replace with a new one and nobody seems to have found a reliable welding repair for it that can be counted on to last.   From what I have heard, if you weld it consider it a temp fix until you find a reasonably priced replacement as it will not last.  I suppose if I owned one and it cracked or broke, I would probably fabricate my own boom if a cheap replacement cast iron piece wasn't available."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:I have never seen a Case boom destroyed that severely.  My assumption is that this machine has been used as a hoe ram most of it's life, or it struck a bridge on transport.  I'm not sure what you will spend on fuel for the pre / post heat and the rods, but I would save that money and put it towards a new used boom.
Reply:Originally Posted by HissSplatHere are the pic's. Hope they made it.
Reply:If Expat says 307, then he is probably right as he does alot of work on mining equipment.When you look at the big picture $2500 is cheap for a used boom. After all you must have gotten this machine cheap as probably the previous owner had priced a replacement. If you broke it, then shame on you for ABUSING it!When you really think about the labor to disassemble, prep, plus the gas to heat it, consumables, post heat gas. Then it will probably not last anyways. It will then tic you off royally when you are halfway through a job when it breaks again. I would spend the money buying steel to fabricate a replacement boom.My Opinion of Course!Originally Posted by drujininIf Expat says 307, then he is probably right as he does alot of work on mining equipment.When you look at the big picture $2500 is cheap for a used boom. After all you must have gotten this machine cheap as probably the previous owner had priced a replacement. If you broke it, then shame on you for ABUSING it!When you really think about the labor to disassemble, prep, plus the gas to heat it, consumables, post heat gas. Then it will probably not last anyways. It will then tic you off royally when you are halfway through a job when it breaks again. I would spend the money buying steel to fabricate a replacement boom.My Opinion of Course!
Reply:I own both, a 580SM similar to that and an older 680E with a fabricated swing tower. I honestly think I would fabricate a new tower out of plate, copying their design as much as possible
Reply:As far as lineboring, I'm not sure how critical that is.  If I built it, I would just jig it with a rod.  If you look at the slop in most backhoes with any hours on them, they are nowhere close to lined up.  Obviously it would be better if it was machined, but I'm not convinced it is 100% necessary. What is the exact model of that case? I'll check around, there are some huge heavy equip salvage yards around here in the sacramento area.   Also for some reason I thought we were talking about the boom mount (tower), is that the main boom where it connects to the swing tower?  Is it an extendahoe or standard?Last edited by blackbart; 07-28-2013 at 05:15 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by blackbartAs far as lineboring, I'm not sure how critical that is.  If I built it, I would just jig it with a rod.  If you look at the slop in most backhoes with any hours on them, they are nowhere close to lined up.  Obviously it would be better if it was machined, but I'm not convinced it is 100% necessary. What is the exact model of that case? I'll check around, there are some huge heavy equip salvage yards around here in the sacramento area.   Also for some reason I thought we were talking about the boom mount (tower), is that the main boom where it connects to the swing tower?  Is it an extendahoe or standard?
Reply:If you can't find or afford a replacement I would weld it and plate it on the outside. There is a good flat area all the way around and up the boom. Go up past the dimple you see in the pics. You will need to work the plat a bit to get a tight fit. I would use some 1/2" plate. Cut it to fit and drill the holes the same size as the outside of the bushings. Buy new longer bushings, (I can get you a supplier if you need one) and make a longer pin. Put the new bushings and pin in while you weld. Then put the plates on last and weld them all the way around. I've done 2 like that, but not broke as bad as yours. Both held til the hoe was sold. Coincidentally both were for the same guy.
Reply:Originally Posted by welderjIf you can't find or afford a replacement I would weld it and plate it on the outside. There is a good flat area all the way around and up the boom. Go up past the dimple you see in the pics. You will need to work the plat a bit to get a tight fit. I would use some 1/2" plate. Cut it to fit and drill the holes the same size as the outside of the bushings. Buy new longer bushings, (I can get you a supplier if you need one) and make a longer pin. Put the new bushings and pin in while you weld. Then put the plates on last and weld them all the way around. I've done 2 like that, but not broke as bad as yours. Both held til the hoe was sold. Coincidentally both were for the same guy.
Reply:Hhhmm, must be a different model from the ones I worked on because I had no clearance problems that I remember, but it's been a long time. Can you take picks of the tractor side?
Reply:Originally Posted by welderjHhhmm, must be a different model from the ones I worked on because I had no clearance problems that I remember, but it's been a long time. Can you take picks of the tractor side?
Reply:Yes, because I don't remember there being a clearance problem on the ones I did, but I don't remember at all what model the hoe was.
Reply:Originally Posted by welderjIf you can't find or afford a replacement I would weld it and plate it on the outside. There is a good flat area all the way around and up the boom. Go up past the dimple you see in the pics. You will need to work the plat a bit to get a tight fit. I would use some 1/2" plate. Cut it to fit and drill the holes the same size as the outside of the bushings. Buy new longer bushings, (I can get you a supplier if you need one) and make a longer pin. Put the new bushings and pin in while you weld. Then put the plates on last and weld them all the way around. I've done 2 like that, but not broke as bad as yours. Both held til the hoe was sold. Coincidentally both were for the same guy.
Reply:There's never the time or money to do it right, but there's always time and money to do it over when it breaks again....I can't really think of one case in my life working with heavy equipment where "going cheap" ever really saved money. In almost every case it usually ended up costing way more in the long run..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWThere's never the time or money to do it right, but there's always time and money to do it over when it breaks again....I can't really think of one case in my life working with heavy equipment where "going cheap" ever really saved money. In almost every case it usually ended up costing way more in the long run.
Reply:Originally Posted by ExpatWelderI, personally, would NOT plate it...............you really want to see the next failure coming, and it WILL come, just a matter of time, if you plate it, the crack has to come out from under the plate before you see it.   I realize that you are probably not in the financial situation to buy a new or a good used piece, but as others have already suggested, that would be your best option.  All equipment that I own that makes me money is worth repairing properly............how much money does this backhoe make you...............how long will it take this thing to pay for the boom??   Sometimes you gotta spend a little more to make it worthwhile..........something to think about.
Reply:Some A$$hoole probaby sold it to you KNOWING it was broke.............................Seems like honesty is a thing of the past.If I were in your situation I would attempt to fix it.  Try a test area first...........small area, 2-4 inches.  Gouge it out, grind ALOT to get all the carbon out from gouging and hit it with some 307...........do a little at t time so you don't get it too hot.  If the small area is OK, you should be good to go with the whole thing.  I would not try to pre heat or post heat.  I know some are going to argue with that, but that's how I personally would do it.......the first time.  Then if that does not work, move to Plan B............I am not sure what my plan B would be yet........keep me posted.6 Miller Big Blue 600 Air Paks2 Miller 400D6 Lincoln LN-25's4 Miller Xtreme 12VS2 Miller Dimension 812 4 Climax BW-3000Z bore welders Hypertherm 65 and 85Bug-O Track BugPair of Welpers
Reply:Originally Posted by ExpatWelderSome A$$hoole probaby sold it to you KNOWING it was broke.............................Seems like honesty is a thing of the past.If I were in your situation I would attempt to fix it.  Try a test area first...........small area, 2-4 inches.  Gouge it out, grind ALOT to get all the carbon out from gouging and hit it with some 307...........do a little at t time so you don't get it too hot.  If the small area is OK, you should be good to go with the whole thing.  I would not try to pre heat or post heat.  I know some are going to argue with that, but that's how I personally would do it.......the first time.  Then if that does not work, move to Plan B............I am not sure what my plan B would be yet........keep me posted.
Reply:We've been here before. Originally Posted by denrep. . .Today I had a chance to leaf through my copy of  "Ductile Iron", it has a chapter on welding, I gave that a quick review. Mainly it's the characteristic of having distinct layers that makes  DI welding difficult.I was surprised to find that brazing was strongly discouraged; mostly because of difficulty in removing spheroids prior to brazing.To make a long story short - Most recommended process without full annealing, is to use 50-60% Ni electrode, with a soft mildly penetrating arc. . .
Reply:I agree and have seen many things come in over the years where you just have to ask "what were you thinking"? LOL. But a cobbled repair is a far cry from a well thought out and well done repair. I made my living for many years doing this kind of repair for guys like this where new or replacement means not having a piece of equipment. There are few things that cannot be repaired to as good as new, even if they don't look new. This one does have some serious challenges, but depending on what the tractor side has and what there is to work with it is very repairable. If it was a daily user and there was a crew that could be out of work because of a breakdown then it's easy to justify a replacement. I don't believe there is a way to just weld it without some type of plating or gusseting that will be very reliable tho. I also agree with no pre or post heat too.
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepWe've been here before.This is a critical repair, to say the least.Shortcuts are out.Some in-depth "homework" is in order before attacking the casting.Did you see Broccoli1's link?Particularly the REFERENCES section?I'd recommend a review of some of those publications.
Reply:I wouldnt weld that **** man... If that thing fails at the heat effected zone, you could get into serious liability issues, its a single cast for a reason... I would never tell a man what to do, but just what i would do.Sal
Reply:...cont thats contingent with its applications, i read right over it being a small backhoe, may be fine.. Sorry brother. Just looking outSal
Reply:Originally Posted by DSW  View PostThere's never the time or money to do it right, but there's always time and money to do it over when it breaks again.......God I love this saying can I post it in my shop....
Reply:In my opinion that is a throw-away. It is severly damaged and the cost of repair will exceed the cost of replacement. I have repaired cracks in case booms before with reasonable success. The crack must be gouged out and cleaned up. I then preheat butter the weldment with stainless and then weld with 7018. Not a sure thing but has worked for me.
Reply:I honestly would not have a clue as to where I would start on that. The only thing I could think of would be beveling it, getting it all tacked up then preheating, welding a slight amount, then move somewhere else to weld, and just watch the stresses and heat input as well as slow cooling - that is the only thing I could personally think of. That crack actually scares me if I had to do it.