new to tig, and having a constant problem

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hey gents, i have been miging for the past 5-6 years, and have finally purchased a tig machine of my own!its a miller diversion 165.here is the problem, i cant get a small arc. all i get is a massive flame looking thing from out of the end of the tungsten and it just melts the aluminum in a penny sized area all around it.i have pure argon set to 15, and have tried the ball end green tungsten, which sucked. and then put in the orange tungsten with a tapered tip and small flat spot, and its pretty much the same. i cant form any bead at all with any sized wire and it just continues to melt the aluminum in a penny sized area all around the tungsten.:-/ needless to say im very disappointed and i would be so grateful if someone could steer me in the right direction.the thickness of aluminum is pretty much 1/8 and a little under.please help me get started on the right foot here.
Reply:Too long an arc.  Tungsten needs to be 1/16"-1/8" from the workpiece.Go to millerwelds.com and click on the "resources" tab.  Scroll down til you see their offer for the Student Pack.  It's $25 including shipping.  Includes a great Tig Handbook, a GMAW Handbook, a GMAW-P handbook and a bunch of other useful stuff.Learning to tig weld on a message board is NOT the way to go.  You can pick up useful tips, but you need to have a basis to tell good guidance from BS.  And, lord knows, there's enough BS put out on these boards.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:good advice for the book pack and you need to tell us more info :machine settingsgas and cfh settingfiller type OH AND PICS WOOD HEP ALOTidealarc 250/250 ac-dc tigidealarc 250/250 ac-dc tig #2 used for sticklincoln sp100hh125dual arbor grinder polisher30 yrs of hand tools52 pitch blocks 6p-26prake gauge -pitch gaugeG&D prop repair 918-207-6938Hulbert,okla 74441
Reply:machine is set to ac, 100-115 amps per the thickness of the aluminum, green tungsten with a shiny ball end, 3034 aluminum filler, argon at 15, and i had the tungsten so close the first time it stuck and welded to the piece, so i had to get a new tungsten out. :-\ill post pics for sure.my friend is a certified underwater welder and he said it sounds like the heat is up to high and/or the metal is dirty and needs to be much cleaner.i have the dvd video and book already. i have read up and followed everything as they said, so im very stumped.
Reply:tvr,Miller DOES NOT recommend the use of pure (green) tungsten, balled on an inverter.They recommend ceriated (I like 2% lanthanated).The "balled tungsten" could be part of your problem.You don't have a lot of adjustments on the Diversion, so it's most likely the tungsten or the tungsten/workpiece distance.Sounds like you might have a "book" but not the right book.I'd probably be more inclined to listen to advice from tig welders, rather than underwater welders.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:If your really serious about getting familiar with that Tig Machine take a course at your local adult ed college.........You won't be sorry  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:I wondered why I kept getting SHOCKED.........  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Hey TVR,You have experience with MIG & just got a TIG..... two completely different worlds. Gotta start from the beginning all over again. First, your starting bass-ackwards regarding material. You should wean yourself on some 1/8" steel 3-4" coupons & practicing on butt welds to learn puddle/heat/arc distance/travel control. CLEAN metal! It's gonna take some real time unless you do as suggested & take a vo-tech/college class to learn the fundamentals.Next, aluminum is the last material to learn on. Until you get extremely proficient with using the TIG unit, you'll not get optimum results with aluminum. There are a myriad of threads/posts on this & other forums with alum. TIG. Do some homework. I also second the suggestion to get the Miller tutorial pak for reference data. You can also go to this website link to observe some great video that will give you some practical undertanding of the process. YES!!!! LOSE THE PURE TUNG.!!!  I also use 1.5/2% Lanthanated & I like 1.5% Ceriated for the really thin(<.045) alum. corner seams I do. The other primary factor with aluminum is the cleanliness(SS brush/Acetone) that has to be maintained. Alum. is the most finicky of metals. Start on steel & then work your way into alum.......should be ready in 6mos if you give 1-2hrs/day practicing.Dennyhttp://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/Complete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:thanks for the replies. i appreciate all your advise.i got the starters pack with dvd, and the tig welding miller manual for dummies. my buddy said the same thing about starting with aluminum. not the best choice. my thinking was if i can get the hardest part down, than the easier material will be a snap.i used the orange rod that came with the diversion first. ground it the correct way, and made a little land on the end. i thought that was the reason so i switched to the green one to no avail. :-/i wish i had something to take video with so i could literally show the process taking place, but i dont have that luxury at the moment. if the welding supply co. filled my bottle with something other than argon(which is what i asked for), could that have something to do with the index finger thick arc that i am getting?i hold the torch vertical for like 4 seconds to "get a pool going" before adding filler and dropping the angle to push forward, and the only thing that happens is the metal in a pennies diameter starts to like sag/distort. its like the torch is heating a larger area and not a precise point, and i dont see an arc at all. it looks like a jet flame that kinda moves around a little. and when i tip it to the 15' angle to add filler, the jet flame curls out and up and melts my filler rod before it even makes it to the piece! its like a damn fire breathing dragon or something thats jacking it all up.i dunno. i guess ill try it out on some carbon steel tomorrow and see if thats any different.thank you again for your advise and time.Last edited by TVR; 02-23-2011 at 08:49 PM.
Reply:I agree with Denny, you need to start with steel before moving to alum. With steel you will see the puddle reaction to changes in the heat as you adjust the pedal. If you can not manipulate your heat alum tig will be impossible. Once you have stell down cold, then making the necessary changes for doing alum will be much easier.100-115 amps is way low as a setting for 1/8" alum as well. If you are taking 4 seconds to get a puddle going you are taking WAY too long. On that machine you need to set the amps to max to do 1/8" alum. You need the extra amps to get the puddle started quickly and then back down as soon as the puddle starts. Also the surface oxide on alum melts at a higher temp than clean bare alum. By the time you slowly get the heat up to where the oxide layer melts, the inside is already molten and uncontrolable. Thats one of the reasons cleaning alum and heat control are so important with alum.The bad or wrong gas could cause issues, but thats a rare occurance usually. I'd expect the issue comes from your lack of training. If you want to learn tig quickly, you should look into a class at a local tech school. When you figure what you would pay to get all that practice done on your own, let alone the instruction, the class is stupid cheap.Oh and a commercial diver who does stick would not be my 1st choice for getting tig basics... Then again I've done it myself and I'm making suggestions... If he's figured out how to tig underwater I want to see picts! .No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Just a nutter guess but you could have a leak and not getting enough Argon coverage.take everything apart and put it back together- some times we miss something simple in assembly.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Just for fun... try establishing an arc with the gas shut off, and compare the results with what you are getting with the gas on.  It may not be the only problem you're having, but it sounds like there is a coverage problem goin' on... wrong gas, inadequate flow, leak, ??????
Reply:Are you using a foot or hand remote control?The torch should be plugged into the (-) terminal.(I don't know if it's possible to reverse the torch/ground cable connectionson a Diversion.)FWIW--I played with a customer's diversion-once. It's simply a diversion from what a decent TIG welder can do. Poorest excuse of a TIG welder I've ever run.Blackbird
Reply:yeah, i am def going to start on some mild and/or stainless today and see if the prob persists.i will unhook the gas line and reconnect. i wish there was a way to just flow the gas out of the cup without needing an arc, but its all triggered by the same button :-/my friend, who is now underwater certified, worked at a metal fab shop here in winter haven for 3 years after attending the vo-tech schools. he can weld anything, and is great at it. but his title is now underwater welder, so i address him as such. i talked to him for a bit last night(he now lives in gainesville) and he is going to come down on sat and get me setup on the straight and narrow hopefully.i will try out some steel and report back today. i know i keep saying it, but thanks for your input, its very valuable to me.
Reply:update!so i tried the orange tungsten ground to a point then put a small little flat spot on it. set the argon to 12put the amperage at the level the machine suggests on the front for this piece of 1/8 steel plateand here is what i got:same fire breathing dragon type stuff.so i adjusted the amps down to the 1/16 range, made a few no-filler, and some 3/32 filler passes, and REDEEMED myself!as for the aluminum, here was what a piece looked like from yesterday:sunken in, warped crater from the dragonand here is what it looks like on the underside:i can weld the steel and operate the wheel control pretty good for my actual working first 4 passes!im going to go weld to pieces together now and see how i do.it is night and day. the dragon is gone and i have a stable path that doesnt melt the world. lolinput?
Reply:[QUOTE=TVR;477791]thanks for the replies. i appreciate all your advise.. my thinking was if i can get the hardest part down, than the easier material will be a snap.reasonable thinking , but if is a huge word...if grandma had bawls , she'd be grandpa.....
Reply:I would practice some more with the amp control on that thing. You should be able to back the amperage all the way down to nearly nothing regardless of what you have it set to on the machine.
Reply:Hey TVR,For you & all the other youngsters/newbies wetting your feet with TIG, here's a good thread posted by John Swartz, Product Manager, Miller Welding that will provide some enlightenment regarding tungstens.Dennyhttp://www.millerwelds.com/resources...-Tungsten-TypeLast edited by yorkiepap; 02-24-2011 at 09:05 PM.Complete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:man i got some good practice in today after work!i learned that tungsten prep is very very important. i also found that the pointier it is, it seems like the smoother and more stable the arc on the steel. i did the point at about 2.5 times the thickness of the 3/32 tung.i can tell a major diff in heat now from all of the welds i did today. the fat and less uniform low level ones had a lot of heat, the tall, thin welds that didnt penetrate out the bottom too far had less, and so on.i have gotten much better with the steel in just the one day i have had in practicing and essing with all the parameters and diff thickness materials.so with that aspect, i am very satisfied with my 1 day progress. i should snapped some pics of the last few beads i ran. not pro by any means, but pretty close to some clean migs ive done without the splatter.as for the aluminum, still no dice. the pointed tip is awful for it, it just makes it cave in and melt easier. i think i am going to buy some orange tung in a 10 pack to use for everything. have 5 sharp for steels, and have 5 flat/balled for aluminum, if i ever get it to work. no joke, the alum will not form a puddle of an kind on any alum i used at any heat setting. if its too low. it does absolutely nothing, if i up it, while waiting for a puddle to form, the whole area starts to cave in. tried all the way to 160amps with no dice. *sigh. guess ill have to wait and see if my friend joey can get it to work on sat. its very disappointing as i picked up the steel and started doing it like it was no thing after the first weld. but the alum, i have spent part of today and all of yesterday and still cant even get a 2 segment bead without the crap melting like Styrofoam next to a flame. :-/
Reply:I read your statement about if you get the hardest part down the rest will be a snap...This might be true but in the mean time you might get discouraged by NOT seeing good results.......As mentioned Aluminum can be a tough one to  learn on.....Especially thin stuff that your pics show your using........If you HELL BENT on welding aluminum at least start with a fairly thick piece (1/4 " )  that way you will have time to see what is going on before it melts.  A  few hands on lessons are in order for you before you start learning BAD HABITS which are hard to change...Your choice of aluminum grades is important also since not ALL grades are weldable.......look for 6061 stamped on the metal somewhere.....Last edited by B_C; 02-24-2011 at 05:47 PM.  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Hey TVR,Just wondering... are you breaking the surface oxide layer on the aluminum with a SS brush & some acetone to have the metal chemically clean? I'd still suggest to stay away from the alum. till you really get proficient with arc control.DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:yeah, i cleaned it with a stainless brush, then acetone wipedown... still just wants to melt an area and make the surface similar to a cover on a pool, like its still solid, but it just dips down if i stick a filler rod to it. something has to be wrong somewhere. i mean i cant even get a puddle and a 2 segment bead. the stuff just warps up and is useless. and its 1/8 alum plate.like i said, the steel part is great, it is very easy to manipulate now and just strike, then dab away a nice weld. the aluminum on the other hand is like totally non-functional.
Reply:I'm with BC start with some thick alum.Thin for a beginner is not forgiving things happen to quick to recognize what is going on,Your thin alum isn't anodized is it?Vinnie
Reply:TVR,the pic of the steel shows that you have absolutely zero inert gas shielding!  Have you corrected that now?  Have you got recent pics of your progress?
Reply:Originally Posted by yorkiepapHey TVR,For you & all the other youngsters/newbies wetting your feet with TIG, here's a good thread posted by Frank Swartz, Product Manager, Miller Welding that will provide some enlightenment regarding tungstens.Dennyhttp://www.millerwelds.com/resources...-Tungsten-TypeHey Ed,Thanks.... my bad...DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:i have learned very much in these first few seated hours!the fire breathing dragon and scorching of the aluminum comes from the torch being too far off the material. i replicated it a few times just to prove my hypothesis. yay. thats one thing i figured out. i thought the opposite, like the closer i got the torch to the material, the hotter it would get, but it just centralizes it more so the material doesnt all heat up at once. i was probably about 1/4" out or so and didnt really notice it, and i think my angle was more toward 30' or so.as for the shielding gas problem: the very first pic where the steel is heated somethign serious was from waaaaaaaaaay too many amps and having the torch too high.here is a pic i snagged before i called it quits(on my cell. the camera died). its 2 old pieces of carbon with some nuts mig'd to them, i wire brushed the paint off and laid a nice little bead. 1/16 wire on 1/8 steel. clean and a little wobbly, but hey, its my first day. lol
Reply:Hey TVR,Yes, you will find that mistakes are our greatest teachers....BTW, yup....that resembles a TIG bead.....DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:i actually laid some aluminum beads as well! forgot to mention it. they are blob like and follow a strange path, but they are raised and didnt soak into the aluminum all the way. its weird, its like you need to start it hot, then right away pull some amps back, dab the filler, and start your path. i am thinking about buying the foot pedal attachment. it seems like the alum dabbing goes quicker than the steel. like i could do a 4" alum pass faster than a 4" steel. does that sound right or am i just being hasty still on the alum?also, i think the alum plate i am learning on a a crappy reg mix aluminum, because i get this black crap in the weld bead and it looks like a mig weld with slag or something on it. even after vigorous prep work.
Reply:Hey TVR,Just keep in mind that alum. does run hotter & faster than steel. It really takes practice. Also, get a piece of SS(14-16ga) or a piece of flat copper(or flattened) & use it for a backing on your alum.. It will help to act as a heat sink to allow you a bit better heat control.DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Get a foot pedal.....I use Zirtung (brown stripe )sharpen to point....It will ball on its own to the amps your using.....Only time I use an amp slid or wheel is when I have to climb into a fabrication and cant use a peddle...Certain situations I will bring peddle with me and use it like a thigh master...squeezing with knees....Adjust arc control as practical...Good Luck
Reply:TVR,I see no etched zone around the bead on the aluminum.  Are you using A/C?  You should be.  As far as having the correct gas and good coverage . . . hold the electrode 1/16 above the material, start and arc and increase the heat until a small (1/4" dia.) puddle forms, then stop the arc and hold the torch still until the postflow has finished.  The puddle should be shiney and have no color . . . try this on D/C with steel and A/C with aluminum and post some photos. -jimDynasty 300DXSmith He/Ar gas mixerMM350PHobart Handler 120Smith LW7, MW5, AW1A
Reply:Originally Posted by yorkiepap YES!!!! LOSE THE PURE TUNG.!!!  I also use 1.5/2% Lanthanated & I like 1.5% Ceriated for the really thin(<.045) alum. corner seams I do.
Reply:Originally Posted by 4sfedTVR,I see no etched zone around the bead on the aluminum.  Are you using A/C?  You should be. -jim
Reply:http://www.thefabricator.com/article...lding-aluminumThis should cover your questions.....BTW I get this mag at work has some decent articles.
Reply:I have seen contaminated tanks cause some problems. But it looks like you are starting to grab at the concept.  Its not as easy as it looks on video.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldI have seen contaminated tanks cause some problems. But it looks like you are starting to grab at the concept.  Its not as easy as it looks on video.
Reply:[QUOTE=TVR;478702 it has this black soot like crap in it and just looks awful.[/QUOTE]You've got a gas coverage problem or a bad tank- it does happen. Happened to me with a New tank from the LWS and I went through exactly what you are.It doesn't affect Mild Steel welding as much (well it does but as a beginner we don't know what BAD is) but once I tried AL it was really crappy. I too thought it was just me being a noob and put down the torch out of frustration.I picked up a different jug of Argon because it was on CL for Cheap and some other stuff.I hooked up that bottle of Argon and then everything worked as it should.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:well damn. i literally just bought it last weekend brand new. got it in, and headed to my welding supply store, had it filled and went home to get on it. ho do you clean or fix the problem? dont say buy another 160 dollar tank either...  :-/
Reply:Originally Posted by TVRwell damn. i literally just bought it last weekend brand new. got it in, and headed to my welding supply store, had it filled and went home to get on it. ho do you clean or fix the problem? dont say buy another 160 dollar tank either...  :-/
Reply:Originally Posted by TVRmachine is set to ac, 100-115 amps per the thickness of the aluminum, green tungsten with a shiny ball end, 3034 aluminum filler, argon at 15, and i had the tungsten so close the first time it stuck and welded to the piece, so i had to get a new tungsten out. :-\ill post pics for sure.my friend is a certified underwater welder and he said it sounds like the heat is up to high and/or the metal is dirty and needs to be much cleaner.i have the dvd video and book already. i have read up and followed everything as they said, so im very stumped.
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomThe filler number is 4043 not 3034.BTW you do have the machine set for aluminum right (AC)?On that machine I believe they have made it very easy for you it just says steel or aluminum on the switch.
Reply:If you bought a new tank somewhere else before you took it to the LWS and asked them to fill it, they may have assumed it already had residual argon rather than air or a vacuum in it. Did you tell them it was new? If it still had  air, you would then have oxygen mixed with the argon which would be enough to cause the aluminum problem. What has the tungsten surface looked like after being used? If it had perfect coverage by nothing but argon, it would be clean and shiny still. The tungsten oxides and nitrides look different so should be apparent if present, and will go up into the cup as far as the tungsten was hot enough, assuming the gas was contaminated.
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2If you bought a new tank somewhere else before you took it to the LWS and asked them to fill it, they may have assumed it already had residual argon rather than air or a vacuum in it. Did you tell them it was new? If it still had  air, you would then have oxygen mixed with the argon which would be enough to cause the aluminum problem. What has the tungsten surface looked like after being used? If it had perfect coverage by nothing but argon, it would be clean and shiny still. The tungsten oxides and nitrides look different so should be apparent if present, and will go up into the cup as far as the tungsten was hot enough, assuming the gas was contaminated.
Reply:Originally Posted by TVRi didnt tell them it was new when they filled it. and i think he filled it 75/25 argon/O2, because he said, "75/25, right?" and i said no, and didnt go on to question him about the last fill to seem like an ***. just made sure this one was pure argon that has been around the block and doing its job right this time.i just got a raggedy ol' looking green and rust colored one now with a pure argon,non-flammable gas sticker on it. lolas for the tungsten it developed a little ball tip, and itself was shiny, but a little ways up the tungsten was black specs that looked like if a magnet had picked up some small black metal shards on it.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Well how does yer welds look now?
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Well how does yer welds look now?
Reply:Be careful telling some people you are a Art Major.Some people in the welding world will discount you immediately.I know because I have am an artist too. Masters degree in sculpture.That is one reason I became a certified welder and CWI- so I would not have that problem anymore!And I have extensive experience in welding too.BTW....That razor blade with "Made in China" is very funny.LOLAWS certified welding inspectorAWS certified welder
Reply:From post #12... like I said.Just for fun... try establishing an arc with the gas shut off, and compare the results with what you are getting with the gas on. It may not be the only problem you're having, but it sounds like there is a coverage problem goin' on... wrong gas, inadequate flow, leak, ??????Glad to hear you've got the problem solved.
Reply:^yes. thank you!i wanted to make sure i followed up in the thread. you have no idea how many threads i searched only to have dead-ends with no answer/resolution. its so irritating. lolthank you very much for all of your insight and help weldingweb members. i appreciate it all very much!