Need expert help!

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I'll try to keep this short.I am looking for advice from pro-welders. I looked around this forum a lot gathering information but a lot of the welding terminology is lost on me. What I did gather is that a lot of people here REALLY know their stuff.In February a local "business man" offered to build a food vending cart for a small business I was starting. We agreed on plans and a cost and let him do his thing. Months and months went by with no word, which worried me. Finally six weeks past the due date we were shown the cart. It didn't look good, was late, and came in way over budget but we wanted to get to work before the season was done. When we put water in the holding areas it leaked like crazy. After a lot of headaches and running around I just want my money back.Attached are some pictures of the cart. A handful of local welders looked at these pictures when I asked if they could fix the work and literally laughed me out of their shop saying this thing isn't worth the scrap it is made out of.Based on the attached pictures can anyone tell me anything about this cart? Were the proper welding techniques used? Was the metal cleaned/rolled properly? Will the seems last more than 6 months? The putty on the joints was to stop leaks and they still leak, is putty meant to be a permanent fix or is it a band aid?Any other info anyone needs I will gladly supply. Just trying to resolve this nightmare situation.Thank you all in advanceAdam Gagnon
Reply:OUCH!  The local "businessman" doesn't happen to be named Danny that puts up YouTube videos of his work is he?  Another long story. In my opinion you'd be $$$ ahead by having a reputable shop build you a new one from scratch.  The time it would take to fix that disaster of a job would far exceed starting over.If you paid in advance the lesson of the day is no pay until the job is completed on time, on budget and more importantly done right - which the builder missed on all accounts.I know that's not what you want to hear but that's my opinion.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:+1 what Duane posted. No health dept would ever let you serve food from that cart.
Reply:Duane is right, scrap it and start over with someone who knows what they are doing."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:That is a butchered mess, cut your losses and start over.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:Yes to all the above and back to square one...Junk that Start overBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Looks like he started off with scrap materials and botched the job from there on...nothing looks to have been done correctly. If he was indeed a "business man" it wasn't in the welding business or he would starve! Is any of that material even food grade stainless?Lincoln PrecisionTig 275Miller 251Miller DialArc 250Bridgeport millHossfeld bender & diesLogan shaperJet 14 X 40 latheSouth Bend 9" 'C'Hypertherm 900Ellis 3000 band saw21"Royersford ExcelsiorTwo shops, still too many tools.
Reply:Thanks for all the fast replies.I paid him half upfront (so he could buy materials). Have a second court date with him on the 4th to try and get a judgement on getting my money back. I don't see how we can lose, just trying to gather all the info I can. I don't know what materials he used, but none of it is stainless steel. The guy who volunteered to build it has a food cart of his own he built so I thought he knew what he was doing, got scammed badly.
Reply:Originally Posted by WallyHawk The guy who volunteered to build it has a food cart of his own he built so I thought he knew what he was doing, got scammed badly.
Reply:I would take the guy to small claims court- I imagine you spent over a grand and I would want to try and recover some of that cash so it could be be spent on a new cart.I imagine a real cart would be about 2-3 grand. Probably moreLast edited by Broccoli1; 08-25-2013 at 12:22 PM.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:What a disaster!  If you want more laughs, show that to a health inspector.Adam,Here's a weld my kid did during his first stick welding class.  And it was a vertical weld, top to bottom.  I don't think your vendor used any welding technique, let alone proper. Attached ImagesLast edited by Oldendum; 08-25-2013 at 12:39 PM."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:Originally Posted by WallyHawkThanks for all the fast replies.I paid him half upfront (so he could buy materials). Have a second court date with him on the 4th to try and get a judgement on getting my money back. I don't see how we can lose, just trying to gather all the info I can. I don't know what materials he used, but none of it is stainless steel. The guy who volunteered to build it has a food cart of his own he built so I thought he knew what he was doing, got scammed badly.
Reply:See if you can get a written statement from one or two of the shops you had review the job for your attorney to use in your case.  May have to pay an hour or two at their shop rate for it but if it helps . . .Not sure how much weight the opinions gathered from an industry based forum will carry but you may want to discuss same with your legal councel.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:I'd say he did a good job of grenading your business. Kept you strung out till it was too late to take another route, gave you a cart that would drive customers away, and took some of your money doing it. Smart guy. "The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55See if you can get a written statement from one or two of the shops you had review the job for your attorney to use in your case.  May have to pay an hour or two at their shop rate for it but if it helps . . .Not sure how much weight the opinions gathered from an industry based forum will carry but you may want to discuss same with your legal councel.
Reply:http://www.jesrestaurantequipment.co...FUkS7AoduCAAYA should of just bought one sir.
Reply:Go and get pictures of " REAL CARTS" made by professionals for court. That is above and beyond bad. I wonder what kind of business in was in. what a waste of material.    It would definitely be better to build another.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Small claims , no lawyers allowed.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Small claims , no lawyers allowed.
Reply:It shouldn't be hard to win.  I wouldn't waste money on a lawyer because it will be harder to get a judgement for the down payment + attorney's fees than it would be to get just your down payment back.  More than likely you would end up with a judgement for your down payment, but still be on the hook for attorney's fees.You also have to be ready for this guy not to pay.  With that in mind, it is likely that you will pay the lawyer out of pocket and be out more money than you would have been otherwise when he doesn't satisfy the judgement.Now would be a great time to be friends with a CWI.  Get him to write a letter describing why the welds are bad or even better bring him with you as an expert witness.  Just keep in mind you have to file any witnesses beforehand in most jurisdictions, not jsut show up the day of.Beck's Welding and Fabrication, Inc.-Misc. Metals Fabrication & Installation-
Reply:Originally Posted by OldSchoolPSDIt shouldn't be hard to win.  I wouldn't waste money on a lawyer because it will be harder to get a judgement for the down payment + attorney's fees than it would be to get just your down payment back.  More than likely you would end up with a judgement for your down payment, but still be on the hook for attorney's fees.You also have to be ready for this guy not to pay.  With that in mind, it is likely that you will pay the lawyer out of pocket and be out more money than you would have been otherwise when he doesn't satisfy the judgement.Now would be a great time to be friends with a CWI.  Get him to write a letter describing why the welds are bad or even better bring him with you as an expert witness.  Just keep in mind you have to file any witnesses beforehand in most jurisdictions, not jsut show up the day of.
Reply:Originally Posted by OldSchoolPSDNow would be a great time to be friends with a CWI.  Get him to write a letter describing why the welds are bad or even better bring him with you as an expert witness.  Just keep in mind you have to file any witnesses beforehand in most jurisdictions, not jsut show up the day of.
Reply:That is just plain sad, I feel for you! I feel bad for people that get taken like this.
Reply:If it winds up a judgment is issued in your favor and he doesn't/won't pay up, file a lien against him based on said judgment with the county clerk.  Anytime he attempts to sell property or a background check is performed on him it'll crop up and he'll have to deal with it.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:do what you can to ruin the reputation of the craftsman responsible. as for the cart all you can do is poop in it and cover it over with a tarp.Thanks again to everyone for the amazing responses! Don't feel bad about trashing the cart, I know its garbage. To make matters worse in this long feud I don't even have possession of the cart. He insists I pay him an additional 2000 dollars before I can even attempt to get it inspected (an inspection I'm confident it can not pass). When that stipulation was added is when I filed for court the first time. He hired a lawyer this time around, not sure on New York's rules on lawyers in small claims court. Trying to research that now.
Reply:Not that I'm advocating old school measures but you're in New York? I'm figuerin' there must be a "Vinney the Hammer" or a "Forty-four Frankie" back there that'd cost less than a lawyer who'd have a very personal way of putting forth his own expert opinion on your behalf. I'm just sayin'. That's criminal.
Reply:Is it my imagination or did this "business man" use JB Weld on some of those fittings? What a douche!!!Best of luck Wally... I hope the judge rules in your favorInsanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Reply:That's terrible. I guess that legal action would be the only thing to do. That fellow is no welder.Miller Millermatic 252Miller Syncrowave 200Liincoln AC-DC 225Victor O-A Set
Reply:The pictures you showed here should be enough evidence for your case.  If you can get a CWI to look at them and give you something on official letterhead saying that they are not satisfactory, you should have a pretty easy time at it.  Under no circumstances should you give him any more money for anything!  You will lose your money and hurt your case!  A decent lawyer would argue that a second payment constitutes acceptance of the work performed.  That, and from the sound of it your chances of collecting are slim to none.  Write the $1200 off as bad debt and move on.  Keep the legal case going but don't hold your breath...Beck's Welding and Fabrication, Inc.-Misc. Metals Fabrication & Installation-
Reply:Count your loses and move on. Pay by credit card when you can. Don't give more than 25% down, don't leave without a signed contract, make sure whomever you are dealing with is licensed, boned and insured. Cost a little bit more to do business with legit companies, but the problems are fewer.
Reply:Originally Posted by WallyHawkI'll try to keep this short.
Reply:Not sure why a bunch of the images stopped working.What is a CWI? I'd love to get a letter from one if they're an expert in the field. The whole situation has gotten worse.
Reply:I believe he mans a certified welding inspector.
Reply:Originally Posted by WallyHawkNot sure why a bunch of the images stopped working.What is a CWI? I'd love to get a letter from one if they're an expert in the field. The whole situation has gotten worse.
Reply:It couldn't possible have gotten any worse than what we are seeing in those pictures. That's without a doubt the worst fabrication, welding and just generally fooling around with metal.that I've ever seen.Miller Millermatic 252Miller Syncrowave 200Liincoln AC-DC 225Victor O-A Set
Reply:Originally Posted by jlamesNot that I'm advocating old school measures but you're in New York? I'm figuerin' there must be a "Vinney the Hammer" or a "Forty-four Frankie" back there that'd cost less than a lawyer who'd have a very personal way of putting forth his own expert opinion on your behalf. I'm just sayin'. That's criminal.