Wire speed vs. voltage. Which to Adjust....

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would like input from the resident experts. There is a general range for each thickness/type of weld/machine etc, But I really have not seen a good discussion, guide for dialing in the weld.  Which should get adjusted and how much to get that right weld.  we know voltage controls the profile of the bead and amperage controls the current or heat of the weld.  but what guide/suggentions/ approaches do you use to fine tune once you are in the range?  When, why, where, which one first etc.   Assume there is no WPS for the specific weld/project...    Defualt is mild steel but free to add SS or Aluminum too if you so desire,   hopefully this can be and educational thread...Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:I adjust the wire speed the most. But will adjust the voltage if I want the puddle to dry up, or wet out a little. Inductance control / pinch / arc force are also nice to dry up, or wet out the puddle too.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:From the Miller resource "Guidelines for Gas Metal Arc Welding (GMAW)", Page 8, from the Miller website (similar info available from the Lincoln website and from the rather nice info on the ESAB "ESAB University" site at http://esabna.com/us/en/education/esab-university.cfm ):- general parameters is 1 amp per each 0.001" steel thickness of workpiece (short-circuit transfer mode, spray transfer runs a much higher voltage)- using wire diameter info to get a relationship between WFS and amperage as follows (solid wire only, cored wires are different)   0.030" = 2 ipm/amp   0.035" = 1.6 ipm/amp   0.045" = 1 ipm/ampexample:  using some 1/8" thick steel and some 0.030" wire gives us ~125 amps desired (1/8"=0.125") and thus 250 ipm (125 amps desired x 2 ipm/amp = 250 ipm WFS)- set voltage  low voltage = wire stubs into workpiece high voltage = unstable arc, excess spatter  Set voltage midway between too low and too high, so that you get a Goldilocks JustRight voltage, set also by getting that nice 'frying bacon' sound (short-circuit transfer only).  Fine-tune specific parameters (adjust voltage slightly if you have a that ability with a continuous control for voltage, if not pick the 'closest' voltage and then fine tune WFS/amperage only, fine tune WFS/amperage during test bead for specific machine and shielding gas being used, operator 'preference' as to how the bead is being made, joint specifics (butt joint usually needs a bit less power than a lap or fillet joint, etc), weld position (out of position usually needs a slightly lower parameter setting than a flat position), joint fit-up, etc, etc).Watch the puddle and adjust WFS and/or travel speed to get the desired results.Oh, and maintain a consistent stick-out and gun angle too.Simple, right?  Unless I'm waaaaay off with the voltage setting I started with, I'll usually fine-tune just with the WFS (amperage).  If I had to keep turning the WFS dial down, I may then slightly nudge the voltage control dial down a bit as well (continuous voltage control machine, if a tapped machine holpefully I'm not that far off to start with   ).  Blowing a hole right through the (hopefully just the test bead) piece, turn down the settings.  Not quite getting enough penetration, turn up the settings.  Etc, etc.Last edited by MoonRise; 09-17-2013 at 10:22 AM.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:moonrise,  you did mention one that I forgot.  Inductance control. fortunately on my Lincoln SP250, I just select the correct wire and gas on the digital panel and it presets the correct inductance. better explanation of inductance would be nice here too.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawbetter explanation of inductance would be nice here too.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPThis might help. http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/MIG_handbook/592mig3_6.htm
Reply:@ southpaw - good points listed above.  Would also add the following:* Read/digest the 'GMAW Welding Guide' from Lincoln.  Available free in .pdf format at http://www.lincolnelectric.com/asset...L-56/c4200.pdf . Excellent primer on GMAW setups, electrode characteristics, shielding gases, and welding MS/SS/Al with short-circuit/globular/axial spray transfer.  The tables in each section are nice supplements to the data listed on the panel of a typical MIG welder.  Find myself referring to this .pdf (actually printed out a copy and bound it) over and over, especially when running a machine for the first time.* WFS controls amperage and heat into a workpiece, while Voltage controls arc length/shape.  Increase the WFS and more electrons flow to the work piece per unit time, resulting in greater heat/fusion delivered to the work piece. Increase the V and the arc length (distance from electrode to work piece) lengthens, resulting in a wider arc.  The challenge is WFS & V need to be in-sync to maximize the performance for a given diameter MIG wire.  'MoonRise' and CEP are spot-on.Last edited by ManoKai; 09-17-2013 at 04:05 PM."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:ManoKai,  your last sentence is what i was getting at with this thread,   when dialing in that final setting which way works best for each person.   do they adjust volts first or IPM.  etc,  how much of a change to one before adjusting the other..  MY SP250 is kinda trick that way in that on auto I can adjust either the voltage or IPM on the fly with the on gun trigger.  once the IPM changes past a certain point it automatically starts adjusting the voltage.   I think it works the other way around too but not tried that...    Again I'm shooting for "trade secrets" if you will from guys that do tons of MIG welding that will help out the hobbistTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by vwguy3Is that example stainless? Why else would you short arc with 98/2?
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawI'm shooting for "trade secrets" if you will from guys that do tons of MIG welding that will help out the hobbist
Reply:OK, how about this.  Step #1 - check material thicknessStep #2 - check door chart or manual for suggested parameter settingsStep #3 -  based on joint fit-up and type, make SWAG about whether to turn settings (mostly WFS, sometimes a little bit of voltage adjustment as well if using a continuously-variable voltage machine) up or down slightlyStep #4 - make test weldStep #5 - adjust parameters as desired after/during making test weld.  Usually just WFS adjustments for fine-tuning, unless original parameter SWAG was waaay off.  Blowing hole right through, turn things way down (check door chart or manual for next lower suggested settings and adjust as needed).  If you get no arc and the wire stubs into the workpiece and just pushes back the gun, make sure you have the workpiece clamp attached and attached well.    If no nice 'sizzle' sound, turn up voltage slightly and leave WFS alone and try again.  Too much spatter and/or the bead looks 'burnt', then turn down the voltage a bit.Watch the puddle and listen to the arc.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseOK, how about this.  Step #1 - check material thicknessStep #2 - check door chart or manual for suggested parameter settingsStep #3 -  based on joint fit-up and type, make SWAG about whether to turn settings (mostly WFS, sometimes a little bit of voltage adjustment as well if using a continuously-variable voltage machine) up or down slightlyStep #4 - make test weldStep #5 - adjust parameters as desired after/during making test weld.  Usually just WFS adjustments for fine-tuning, unless original parameter SWAG was waaay off.  Blowing hole right through, turn things way down (check door chart or manual for next lower suggested settings and adjust as needed).  If you get no arc and the wire stubs into the workpiece and just pushes back the gun, make sure you have the workpiece clamp attached and attached well.    If no nice 'sizzle' sound, turn up voltage slightly and leave WFS alone and try again.  Too much spatter and/or the bead looks 'burnt', then turn down the voltage a bit.Watch the puddle and listen to the arc.
Reply:@ MoonRise - 'zactly.  Watch n Listen.  Nice step-wise protocol. Gun'a start using it myself. Ha! Mahalo."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseOK, how about this.  Step #1 - check material thicknessStep #2 - check door chart or manual for suggested parameter settingsStep #3 -  based on joint fit-up and type, make SWAG about whether to turn settings (mostly WFS, sometimes a little bit of voltage adjustment as well if using a continuously-variable voltage machine) up or down slightlyStep #4 - make test weldStep #5 - adjust parameters as desired after/during making test weld.  Usually just WFS adjustments for fine-tuning, unless original parameter SWAG was waaay off.  Blowing hole right through, turn things way down (check door chart or manual for next lower suggested settings and adjust as needed).  If you get no arc and the wire stubs into the workpiece and just pushes back the gun, make sure you have the workpiece clamp attached and attached well.    If no nice 'sizzle' sound, turn up voltage slightly and leave WFS alone and try again.  Too much spatter and/or the bead looks 'burnt', then turn down the voltage a bit.Watch the puddle and listen to the arc.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPIt doesn't say, I took it as for mild steel. Don't know why anyone would use 98/2 except for spray transfer.
Reply:Since I started out mig welding with a millermatic 200 which has a stepped switch for voltage control, I usually set the voltage first and then dial in the wire feed speed to suit, guidelines from miller are ballpark but are seldom dead on for me.Last edited by norite; 09-17-2013 at 05:07 PM."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseOK, how about this.  Step #1 - check material thicknessStep #2 - check door chart or manual for suggested parameter settingsStep #3 -  based on joint fit-up and type, make SWAG about whether to turn settings (mostly WFS, sometimes a little bit of voltage adjustment as well if using a continuously-variable voltage machine) up or down slightlyStep #4 - make test weldStep #5 - adjust parameters as desired after/during making test weld.  Usually just WFS adjustments for fine-tuning, unless original parameter SWAG was waaay off.  Blowing hole right through, turn things way down (check door chart or manual for next lower suggested settings and adjust as needed).  If you get no arc and the wire stubs into the workpiece and just pushes back the gun, make sure you have the workpiece clamp attached and attached well.    If no nice 'sizzle' sound, turn up voltage slightly and leave WFS alone and try again.  Too much spatter and/or the bead looks 'burnt', then turn down the voltage a bit.Watch the puddle and listen to the arc.
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawUnless you are Deaf then the whole listening thing goes out the window.
Reply:My LN-25 and my Super S-32P do not have door settings.Great thread, I've always wondered what others do but forget to ask. I start with the settings from the Miller app on the iPhone, and I usually adjust the WFS to fine tune.How would you handle, in GMAW, the old saying for SMAW, comparing it to a woman? "If a woman is standing (high weld bead), and you want her to lay down (flatten the bead), you need to get her hot (turn up the heat)."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:Set your voltage for material thickness being welded, then tune it with wire speed. It used to be a l lot easier with the tapped machines, as you had more limited voltage control, usually a tap every 2 volts. Now with better controls, it kind of muddies the waters on what to adjust. I generally just set the voltage, tune the wire speed, weld and look. Tune as needed.
Reply:When you can snatch the welding rod from my hand , you have learned all that you can and it will time be to leave the templeEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1When you can snatch the welding rod from my hand , you have learned all that you can and it will time be to leave the temple
Reply:Originally Posted by vwguy3I thought the same thing.This post is exactly why I think Autoset is NOT a good thing for noobies,you never learn to set the machine yourself.I do undersatnd that Autoset is aimed at the person that has never welded and makes setting the machine easier with limited skills.
Reply:Originally Posted by vwguy3This post is exactly why I think Autoset is NOT a good thing for noobies,you never learn to set the machine yourself.
Reply:@ CEP - Polarity~hilarity!.  That's why knowing WHY we do what we do is always important.  Understand the physics/reality first ....then turn the knobs and get'n busy.  Always amazes me when humans do not want to know "why?" or seek out a cause/effect relationship for an event/process."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-GyorgyiOriginally Posted by noriteSince I started out mig welding with a millermatic 200 which has a stepped switch for voltage control, I usually set the voltage first and then dial in the wire feed speed to suit, guidelines from miller are ballpark but are seldom dead on for me.
Reply:Originally Posted by MX727Biggest reason I sold my MM212 and got a MM252.  Didn't like Autoset or the tapped settings.  I wanted the digital numbers to help understand what was going on.
Reply:I like digital meters so I don't have to do this anymore. But the older I get I forget my settings, and have to write them down anyway.  Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by copeSame here with my MM210 and HH187.  I have ±244VAC, so I cut wire speed a little lower than recommended on the door chart, and I am usually on.
Reply:I'm like Stick-man, buying the wrong machines, none of mine have door charts.  Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPI'm like Stick-man, buying the wrong machines, none of mine have door charts.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveBut you guys are pros and don't mind .
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPI'm not a pro! I'm just a hobbyist.
Reply:Harbor Freights sells welders? I'll have to go check that out, I could use a few more! Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Mine does not have a door chart either!  but does have this...and here are the settings for .035 mild steel with 75/25 ARCO2 for comparison...  if you have a machine that gives actual voltage and IPM on the door chart not % or abstract # and letter..These setting change obviously, based on what is set in the above videoTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:I don't know if this will hurt some machines, but I usually set it using Millers calculator (now on a smart phone app) then I dial the wire feed as I am welding, mostly listening for the sound.  I don't know if it is wise to adjust all machines under load though.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPI'm like Stick-man, buying the wrong machines, none of mine have door charts.
Reply:.....
Reply:Originally Posted by blackbartI don't know if this will hurt some machines, but I usually set it using Millers calculator (now on a smart phone app) then I dial the wire feed as I am welding, mostly listening for the sound.  I don't know if it is wise to adjust all machines under load though.
Reply:Originally Posted by blackbartI don't know if this will hurt some machines, but I usually set it using Millers calculator (now on a smart phone app) then I dial the wire feed as I am welding, mostly listening for the sound.  I don't know if it is wise to adjust all machines under load though.
Reply:Originally Posted by copeTapped, no, infinite, it's OK.  I have done the same thing.
Reply:Here is an example of variation among machines.  My Lincoln says .035 for 1/4"steel, 316 IPM & 19.4v. Miller's calculator says  360-380 IPM & 21-22v.   Sent w/ Tapatalk using Swype, pls excuse typosTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:I adjust my two mig machines in completely different sequence from each other. The passport doesn't tell you wfs or voltage, only ratio numbers. I start with the door chart to get in the ball park based on joint and fit up, then usually leave the voltage and fine tune the wire feed. The Lincoln 350mp  has digital readouts and a synergetic mode that sets the voltage automatically. The voltage can be fine tuned up or down and then will follow along as you adjust your wfs. As stated above the sound and feel of the arc is critical for fine tuning and comes with seat time on a machine. The arc characteristics of the two machines couldn't be more different from each other. The Miller has a bright sizzle sound with a crisp arc...if in a software controlled mode the arc of the Lincoln has a hissing sound almost like its spraying when your not and the arc is very soft/buttery (there is a cv mode on the lincoln and then it welds more like any other straight cv machine). I like to have music playing in the shop while I'm working so one day I thought it might be a good idea to try some ear buds, took me about 1/2 of a second to realize how much I depend on hearing the arc while mig welding. Pushed myself through a couple beads before I took them out and never brought them back to the shop again.
Reply:Originally Posted by Stick-manI sure as heck aint no pro. I still run wire for ten seconds and multiply by six. I just start with the Miller app settings. One day I will make marks or make a log of setting info.
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawHere is an example of variation among machines.  My Lincoln says .035 for 1/4"steel, 316 IPM & 19.4v. Miller's calculator says  360-380 IPM & 21-22v.   Sent w/ Tapatalk using Swype, pls excuse typos
Reply:Originally Posted by con_fuse9Yeah, the pros run the wire for six seconds and multiply by 10.
Reply:Originally Posted by southpawHere is an example of variation among machines. My Lincoln says .035 for 1/4"steel, 316 IPM & 19.4v. Miller's calculator says 360-380 IPM & 21-22v.
Reply:Originally Posted by wireheadThe Lincoln value is pretty close to what I used in school. I went through a bunch of textbooks and compiled midrange voltage settings vs steel thickness and fit a straight line through the points to obtain the following "Rule of Thumb":V = 14.7 + 0.75 * thickness (mm)So from measured millimeters of thickness (up to about 1/2" or so), I'd first set voltage on the XMT to that required by the Rule and then set wire feed speed about half way between stubbing and burnback. There was also an adjustment for inductance, but leaving it about half way seemed to be "about right". I could perceive only slight differences at either extreme setting.
Reply:Good info!  I'm going to have to try that equation out. If it works for me I will have to put it in my "**** I should remember, but have to write down" notebook. Honest, that's what I call it. -Pottsie
Reply:The equation applies only to short circuit tranfer from 0.035" wire and limited thickness but it sure is a lot easier for a nubee to remember all of the various settings your instructor just seems to pull out of thin air. Takes some of the mystery out of the black box by organizing a lot of information succinctly. An interesting conclusion from V=.... is that there is a minimum voltage required just to get an arc to start weldingMr. Kemeny was correct.Last edited by wirehead; 09-19-2013 at 11:38 PM.XMT304 (school)SP125+ (home)HF 4x6 BandsawGood judgement comes from experience and much of that comes from bad judgement.