Welding a Brake Drum Forge

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Getting into welding and forging at the same time. I bought a Miller Diversion 180 TIG last year. Seems like a pretty good machine. No welding experience, so I'm learning as I go.Yesterday, I welded a large truck brake drum to a black iron pipe flange (not galvanized - I want to keep living). As the subject says, I'm making a brake drum forge.Anyway, I pretty much consider this operation a failure. As far as I can tell, the brake drum is attached, but most of the welds cracked and the drum itself actually cracked where I plugged the mounting bolt holes.I like to learn from my mistakes, so I thought I would post this and hopefully learn what I did wrong and how to do it right in the future.Here's my theory:Wrong filler material - I used mild steel filler rod.No preheatDidn't control cooling rate.Am I right? What filler should I have used? How would I go about preheating and slowly cooling this object? I have an oxy/acetylene torch, but isn't that too hot? Should I use a propane torch? What kind? Also, what is a good way to cool object slowly? Encase in sand?Thanks!Last edited by Trevarthan; 09-14-2013 at 01:34 PM.Reason: add photos
Reply:From the discoloration, you got that screaming hot. I've managed to "make do" with small non critical welds like that simply by running very short beads and keeping the total heat input down. You should be able to lay your bare hand directly on the bead you just welded before running the next one. I also jump around to help spread the heat out. If available high nickel filler would be the way to go, but it's not cheap and often not easily available in tiny quantities. Nickel filler is more ductile than standard E70 and it "gives" a bit more helping to avoid cracking issues. I've also seen stainless used on occasion, again probably due to the nickel content in stainless.For what it's worth I wouldn't worry about the cracks. My antique cast iron coal forge has a much larger crack in it and it still runs just fine.Last edited by DSW; 09-14-2013 at 03:53 PM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I made mine with a 14" wheel and welded a thick metal disc to the bottom and cut a 55gal drum to fit around the upper lip of the rim.  Pipe up the middle with a tee section to attach a fun house blower. Attached ImagesLast edited by MWalden; 09-14-2013 at 08:33 PM.
Reply:Nice old blower there..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Treverthan...Wow...you went to a lot of trouble mounting that flange to the drum.  Do what most people do and just drill some 1/2" holes in your drum to match the flange holes and simply bolt them together.  Mount the bolts with the heads in the drum.  If and when you have to replace your drum, it's a lot easier than grinding your welds!  If you melt your bolt heads, just replace them.
Reply:MWalden - You might want to cut a hole or a "U" in the vertical back shield of your forge, in case you ever want to heat the middle of a piece of metal that's more than 14" long...Last edited by Kelvin; 09-16-2013 at 07:00 AM.
Reply:I did. You just can't see it because of the charcoal piled up in the last pictures.
Reply:I fired this forge up yesterday. Worked like a champ. I heard some pinging, but it held together. I might drill some holes and slap some bolts on it for insurance, but I think it's okay.I'm burning anthracite, and I drilled a bunch of 1/8" holes in the bottom plate (not in the photos) for the blower (bathroom fan). I noticed half of them were clogged with ash afterward. I might enlarge those holes a bit. tackit, those holes in your grill look pretty big. 3/8"? How do you like having holes that large in the grill?Also, this drum is pretty large. I found the side walls a bit annoying. I had to hold my stock at an angle. I might cut some slots in the front and back of the drum, like Kelvin's photo. Man, that pot is huge though, Kelvin. What are you heating? I-beams?Last edited by Trevarthan; 09-16-2013 at 04:38 PM.
Reply:The holes in my antique forge are about 1/4", but I think the grate is a replacement someone made ( not shown in my pict). The "holes" on the side of my clinker breaker in my home built forge are about 1/2". Roughly the size of my index finger.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?146321-Coal-forgeI burn anthracite in my home built forge A: because I have it and it was free, and B: because it has an electric blower. I couldn't burn anthracite in the antique because I'd have to constantly pump the hand pump. I get a lot of clinker from my anthracite, so I have to constantly "work" the fire to pull out all the crud that builds up. The bituminous that I picked up for the antique forge isn't anywhere near as bad as far as clinker is concerned. The clinker breaker in the big forge does make dumping ash easier though compared to the antique. You can make anthracite work, but it's a pain to light and keep going compared to bituminous coal.Mwalden is burning charcoal from the look of his forge. Charcoal needs a bigger pot because it needs more fuel to get a good burn. If he was to go to coal, he could either wet down the sides to help control the size of the fire, or "clay" up the pot to reduce the volume some using furnace cement or a fire clay mix.The large size is one of the down sides to a brake drum forge. You either end up burying the end of the work down in the fire which makes for uneven heating and makes it impossible to heat long lengths, or you have a massive fire that uses a ton of fuel needlessly. As mentioned you can reduce the volume by claying up the forge to reduce the volume. Furnace cement is one option. Broken fire brick can be used to help "stretch" the mix as an aggregate. There are also refractory mixes that you can buy or make, most often using fire clay as a base though some use cheap kitty litter ( clay) instead. Portland cement will work, but breaks back down under high heat. The other down side is that with a brake drum design like you have you don't have a table to hold fuel and keep your fire from falling out of the drum. Tackit's design solves that issue by adding a table to the drum. Mwalden's forge goes sort of in between with his small table to hold his extra fuel..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:You know, I don't really feel the need for a table. When it burns down, I have a little shallow garden hand trowel and I just scoop some from a bucket or box off to the side of the forge onto to the top of the fire.I'm not sure mine goes through coal very fast either. Maybe that has to do with air volume? My 1/8" holes are pretty restrictive. It really seemed to sip coal, only requiring a small scoop every third heating or so. Is that wasteful?I did have an extremely difficult time getting it started. I tried firewood for three hours in different configurations (I burn firewood for heat in the winter, so I have a lot on hand), but I just couldn't get the temperature I needed. Finally, I bought a $7 bag of charcoal. I used half a bag (waaaaay too much). I'm going to see how stingy I can be with the charcoal later. Hopefully I only need three to five brickettes to get started.I couldn't achieve welding heat. I suspect the holes are too restrictive. Here's a video of the first firing: I'm sure I'm doing a lot of things wrong.
Reply:My wireless connection keeps acting up so I'll have to watch the video later.I usually use a small pile of charcoal to get anthracite burning in mine, say about 15-20 pieces. I let them burn until they are white like if I was going to grill, then pipe on my coal and hit the air blast. The other option I have is to get some bituminous going, say a lump about the size of both fists and then add the anthracite to that. Smaller pieces of coal light easier than big ones also. It helps somewhat if I smash up some of the bigger lumps 1st when starting.As far as coal usage, I burn roughly 1/2 a 5 gallon bucket in about 3-4 hours using an electric blower. That seems to be roughly accurate whether I'm burning anthracite or bituminous. I use less in the antique forge, but I'm usually using that for  demos and I keep the fire smaller since I'm usually working with 3/8" material or less.Anthracite doesn't really coke like bituminous does, so a table isn't as big a deal. With bituminous you need to really burn off the impurities to form coke. Coke is what you are actually burning vs coal. The way it works is that the raw coal that is piled on the side of the fire cokes down as the heat burns off the impurities. Then you push the fresh coke into the fire as needed by pushing in new coal around the sides. This allows you to maintain a constant heat with little smoke vs simply dumping more coal on top all the time. However a table doesn't hurt with anthracite because the coal piled on the side of the fire can heat up and get started easier vs dumping raw coal on top when the fire dies down. If you maintain the fire constantly, it's not as big a deal. However raw coal does cause issues when you go to forge weld as the impurities can keep the steel from welding. When you want to weld, you need a clean hot fire and having the extra coal already going helps.As far as the fire not getting hot enough, it's hard to say. If you can burn the steel, you are hot enough to weld. If the steel is sparking, you are above the welding temp and burning the steel. I can easily burn steel even with that little antique hand pumped forge even with only light pumping. I'm guessing part of your issue might have been a lot of clinker at the bottom of the fire. The clinker doesn't burn, but it takes up fuel space in the fire. The clinker can also block air flow, which is what it sounds like you had issues with. Clinker is gummy in the fire, and "clinks" when you hit it when it's cold. It often has sort of a glassy look to it vs coal.Note welding in a forge isn't easy. There is a fine line between hot enough and too hot. Most times guys are scared to burn the steel, so they don't heat the steel hot enough. Also different steels weld at different temps. High carbon steel welds at a different temp than say mild steel does. That makes it a  lot tougher if you say want to weld a high carbon edge to mild for a knife or an axe. You have to get both pieces to the right temps at the same time to get it to work. It took me quite a few attempts to even get mild steel to weld to itself well and I still have to work on my scarfs so I keep the end of the scarf hot enough to weld with the rest of the material. Also when you go to weld, it's important that the part you are welding is in the right part of the fire. Bury it too deep and you are in the lower oxidizing part of the fire where there is more O2 from the air blast. Also a lot of the impurities sink and gather in the lower part of the fire ( clinker) Get it up too high and chances are you may be up in the area without enough heat or into raw unburned fuel. With a deep fire pot like you have it can be tough to get the material in at the right location without a big fire..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I welded 2 Front brake drums from a cement mixer together and use it as a pot belly heater in my shop.  I plated the large hole in the bottom with 14 Ga and put a piece of expanded right across where the drum narrows, so the coals stay off of the bottom of the drum.  I fabbed a 3 inch flue and a flap to close so the smoke goes straight out of the shop up the flue pipe.  I feed it whatever I have laying around like old pallets or shipping crate material, pellets, corn cobs, Peanut hulls from the peanut plant or just what ever is available.  If I ever build another one I will set it up so that the bottom hole sits over a drawer so I can just pull the drawer and dump the ashes that way.  Right now I have to roll the whole thing out and turn it upside down and rinse to get it all.  It keeps my 20X20 Fla shop shirtsleeve warm all winter long on free recycled fuel, which is the best kind when I am paying the bills...Wheelchair BobI'm spending my Kids inheritance, I dont like him that much anyway!!!!!!Enuff tools to do the job, enough sense to use em.Anybody got a spare set of kidneys?  Trade?
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWMwalden is burning charcoal from the look of his forge. Charcoal needs a bigger pot because it needs more fuel to get a good burn. If he was to go to coal, he could either wet down the sides to help control the size of the fire, or "clay" up the pot to reduce the volume some using furnace cement or a fire clay mix.
Reply:I enlarged the holes in my bottom plate by four drill bit sizes. I think they went from 1/8" to 3/8". Man, I need a drill press. That was a lot of work.I also cut a U shaped slot in the front and back of my brake drum with an oxy acetylene torch. That was a lot of fun. I don't get to use that torch much, and it amazes me every time. I hate the goggles it came with though (Victor torch kit). Instead, I tried some "ACE green IR" lampworking glasses (intended for working molten borosilicate glass) under my auto darkening welding helmet with the sensitivity and darkness turned all the way down. That seems to be a nice combination. They're only shade #3, but I didn't notice any discomfort to my eyes afterward. I could see more clearly than with the goggles, and the helmet kept slag away from my face and hair. The helmet did flicker on and off quite a bit during cutting, but I could still see when it turned on. Not a cheap option. I think those glasses cost me $125 last year when I bought them.Finally, I fired up the forge again. I noticed that the forge was a lot hotter with the larger bottom plate holes. I achieved welding heat accidentally, nearly right away. The metal turned into a sparkler. Pretty awesome. I made a couple of crude hot chisel tools, then I used my new U openings to bend a long 1/2" rod in half twice and went to work welding it into a single piece.The forge went through coal quite a bit faster this time. Still, I think I may increase the hole size yet again. I spent a lot of time lounging in my chair, waiting for welding heat. Seems like the ability to work faster and spend less time waiting on the forge would be ideal.I'm going to need a cheaper supply of anthracite. My current supply cost $150 shipped and came in four boxes. I go through about half a box in five hours, I think.
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Reply:Originally Posted by TrevarthanThe forge went through coal quite a bit faster this time. Still, I think I may increase the hole size yet again. I spent a lot of time lounging in my chair, waiting for welding heat. Seems like the ability to work faster and spend less time waiting on the forge would be ideal.
Reply:Nice looking forge you have to start out with, when forge welding you don't need to have your steel ashot as most people think.What you want is to have it to the point where the tip of your fire poker will stick to the work pice, as the work is in the fire. Jest take your poker and place it into the fire and push it into the work pice(not to hard)you only want to see it it will stick?Once you have it "sticking" you should be good to weld, take the work out of the fire place them on the anvil and start to hammer But not to hard as you are only wanting to getting the work to stick together at this point.Once the work is together fux it good and return it to the fire,when it is back to temp. Then you can starting hammering it together, don't work it once it starts to cool as you will not get a good weld.Forge welding is not hard to do If you don't give up first,Look on line for a Blacksmithing group in your state and then go to a meeting, you will find that you only have to ask and you will have all kinds of help getting started. Joe
Reply:Interesting replies. What do you mean the steel is junk after it starts sparking? What happens to the steel at the atomic level to make it "junk" and how do I test steel to find out if it is "junk"? Basically, define "junk", please.I had to let the steel spark for about a minute before it would stick when I hammered it. If I just let it start sparking, the. Hammered, it would not stick. What does this indicate?Thanks for the replies. I learn quickly and I'm not afraid to make mistakes.
Reply:my version  similar to the old buffalo forge I have. Attached Images
Reply:When you have steel sparking you are burning the carbin out of it, the more it sparks the less carbin there is in it.The less carbin in steel = junk steel , you can make something out of it but you will have trouble when/if you try to heat treat it.Keep an eye on the steel in the fire when it comes up to. Yellow and then white you should be good to go.Something to know is that no two people will see the same temps. At the same time so work at it and see where the colors come for you.Best of luckJoe
Reply:Originally Posted by steelsmith101When you have steel sparking you are burning the carbin out of it, the more it sparks the less carbon there is in it.The less carbon in steel = junk steel , you can make something out of it but you will have trouble when/if you try to heat treat it.
Reply:Originally Posted by TrevarthanI'm going to need a cheaper supply of anthracite. My current supply cost $150 shipped and came in four boxes. I go through about half a box in five hours, I think.
Reply:its not shabby and frequently not effectively accessible in little amounts. Nickel filler is more bendable than standard E70 and it "gives" a smidge additionally serving to abstain from splitting issues.
Reply:Originally Posted by TrevarthanInteresting replies. What do you mean the steel is junk after it starts sparking? What happens to the steel at the atomic level to make it "junk" and how do I test steel to find out if it is "junk"? Basically, define "junk", please.I had to let the steel spark for about a minute before it would stick when I hammered it. If I just let it start sparking, the. Hammered, it would not stick. What does this indicate?Thanks for the replies. I learn quickly and I'm not afraid to make mistakes.
Reply:There is no need to build a coking furnace if you have a forge, once you havea fire going keep working the (green) coal into the fire from around the sides . When you finish working kill the air and pull the fire out of the pot and let it cool down,this is the coke for your next fire.But if you want to try building a furnace please. Keep us updated .Awesome. I think one of the things I was doing wrong was not using flux. I watched some youtube videos and they recommended borax powder. I'll try that next time.Also, I'll pay attention to the color and keep it from sparking. Good to know.I'm also planning to weld some material to the back of the forge since I cut too much away. Will give me a chance to try either stainless rod or something with nickel in it.
Reply:Originally Posted by KelvinI think you'll find bituminous coal is cheaper and works better for blacksmithing. Most blacksmiths that I know of use bituminous coal...it's "blacksmithing coal," but it's bituminous."Pocohontas #3" is one vein of bituminous popular for blacksmithing.
Reply:Anthracite as I mentioned needs the blower going all the time, vs  bituminous. Anthracite really doesn't coke up the same way either. Anthracite is much harder to start and keep going also. While it is used, most people I've talked to who forge would choose bituminous over anthracite every time.Natural gas can be used, but you will need a few "extras". The college where I took my forge class had 7 forges set up for natural gas and one set up for propane. Problem is that you need a gas concentrator to use natural gas in a naturally aspirated forge because the gas line pressure is usually too low. Most natural gas lines are set at something like 7" of water, or about 1/4 psi. You can't get the venturi effect you get with propane to draw in the required air to make a naturally aspirated forge burn correctly. You can however build a blown gas forge to run natural gas. In this case you usually have some sort of squirrel cage blower to pump more air into the forge and get it to burn right. I've seen several naturally aspirated forges converted to natural gas. You usually also have to open up the gas orifice as well to make it work right..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:That makes sense. My propane glass torch and acetylene torch both use tanked oxygen. Some people use oxy concentrators if they don't have a ready supply of tanked o2.Do you happen to know where to buy commercial propane or natural gas forges? I've seen the forgemaster propane forge at northern tool http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...2116_200432116 but I haven't seen any reviews. I figured most people either build their own or go with coal because there are so few commercial products.
Reply:Plenty of places sell propane forges. I think Pieh sells the big commercial Johnson natural gas forges on their site. I bet if I keep digging thru my saved links I can locate a few other options as well.http://www.blacksmithsdepot.com/prod...gas-forge.htmlhttp://www.majesticforge.com/http://www.piehtoolco.com/contents/en-us/d1275.htmlhttp://www.blacksmithsupply.com/cata...&DeptID=146743http://www.stockhoffsonline.com/acatalog/Forges.htmlhttp://www.diamondbackironworks.com/...83d5b3dca.htmlJust a few of the possibilities I've got saved links for. The Majestic forges look quite reasonable. It probably would have cost me less to buy one of those vs trying to throw together my own DIY brick pile forge by the time I bought the brick, gas reg, burner parts and so on. I'm still on the fence if I'll keep going with what I have and build a better gas forge ( next incarnation will be a fiber insulated forge for heat retention, faster heat up and lighter weight) or if I'll just buy a premade one and use my burner parts to build a casting furnace.I'm still working on researching natural gas forges. If I even get the garage cleaned out, I'm right next to the kitchen and punching the gas line thru the wall would be a minor job to run natural gas. I'll have to weigh whether the added expense of a blown forge or gas concentrator is worth the hassle vs  buying a large propane cylinder and getting it filled. Jury's still out on which would make more sense at this point. The garage is a long ways from being cleaned out though. At my "shop " it would have to be propane powered, so that may make the difference in the short run..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Hard to find people using these on youtube. I did manage to find one guy using the Majestic forges: If you watch that video, he talks about the ceramic blanket degrading quickly and needing constant maintenance. In the comments, he says Majestic sells a new liner for $90. That doesn't sound like a good plan to me. This page talks about it as well (assuming it's the same issue): http://www.diamondbackironworks.com/...83d5b3dca.htmlI see alot of "Knifemaker" forges being sold for welding billets, and they all use Ceramic Fiber. Ceramic Fiber is great stuff, but not in a Forge Welding environment. Ceramic Fiber reacts to welding flux the same way Cotton candy reacts to water, it just melts away... So imagine the amount of time you'll spend repairing all that damage (the ITC 100 does little to slow that process down, and has a tendency to flake or peel off, creating maintanance issues of its own). Ask yourself this as well, how difficult is it to access the ceramic liner in one of those round forges? If you have to reach in through an opening that can be a real pain. Do you have to take the forge apart, or does it even come apart? Those issues are resolved with our Knifemaker Forges. The floor is flux resistant 3200 degree dense ceramic, the walls and ceilings are Vacuum Formed Insulating Ceramic. If it does get damaged, remove a few screws, lift the lid, lift out the ceiling insulation board and replace the wall board, yes, it really is that easy. These were designed from a working smiths perspective. Not only are they designed to perform, but they are designed to last! A good performing forge is nice, until you find out it's an expensive, all day job to reline, or worse yet, getting stuck with a ceramic fiber lined "welding" forge that you have to make repairs to every time you finish a billet... Like I said, look at all the factors, check out our competition, do your homework. We think if you do, you'll come back to us when it's time to buy that new forge!
Reply:Fluxes generally break down most high temp fire bricks and ceramic blankets. It's one of the down sides of gas forges and forge welding. Some guys use stainless pans on the floor to help shield the bottom from fluxes. Others cut pieces of kiln liner as a sacrificial floor. When these pans or sacrificial floors start to degrade, you simply pull them out and replace them. Walls and ceilings however generally shouldn't come in contact with the flux, so that shouldn't be a big deal if you are careful.I've also seen guys who go nuts using flux. You need enough to cover the work area, but that's really all you need. More isn't really "better".As far as the quote, sounds like his comment is that his liners are easy to replace. He's also using a material that's a bit more resistant to fluxes, but them many companies do that with their floor material. All gas forges will need maintenance at some point. How soon will depend a lot on how you use the forge and how long and how often.In the video, 15psi is also cranked up quite high. From what I've studied so far many guys are running in the 5 to 10 PSI range and some even lower for simple heating. My guess is the high gas pressure combined with the 3 burners is putting out a lot more heat than most people use on average.Keep in mind these forges are being asked to reach temps that can break down steel. The reducing atmosphere inside the forge also isn't friendly to most products. The more resistant the materials are, the higher the cost. 3000 deg refractories are significantly higher in cost than say refractory materials rated at 2500 or so. If you want a "budget" forge, just like with a welder, you are going to have to compromise on something. How much actual forge welding are you planning on doing? If the vast majority of your work will be simple heating, shaping and bending, you completely eliminate the issue of flux degradation of the insulation. I know several guys who mig or tig the pieces and simply use the forge to reshape the welded areas or just use it for shaping..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Here are some forge welding videos that might help.
Reply:Had some more time for forging and welding yesterday. I raised the cut outs on the drum to 2" front and back, then fired it up again. Placing the work piece across those 2" tall cut outs, I couldn't achieve welding heat. I could achieve welding heat by angling the work piece down into the fire. My understanding is that this is a bad idea. Something about a reducing flame?Anyway, I think this means I need to drill out the air holes a size or two more. If the air volume is too large after that, I can always add a rheostat to throttle it back, right?
Reply:I previously stated that I increased the hole size from 1/8" to 3/8". That's not correct. I increased it to 7/32". Quite a ways to go before I hit 3/8".
Reply:Originally Posted by TrevarthanSomething about a reducing flame?