Lay wire technique

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I have done this before on not terribly important joints but I wanted to get peoples opinions on the pros and cons.The main topic is for a production oil pan I am making. I did the first one doing MIG since speed and cost are of high importance. Someone suggested fusion or lay wire TIG instead. It's definitely not worth the added time and consumables of regular TIG but it would be nice if I could knock out at least the outside corners quick and easy and reduce some spatter while I'm at it. One thing I am curious about is technique. Even the videos and such I have seen on lay wire still hold it at a similar angle you would dabbing it in. These outside corners fit up in an open corner very nicely so I am wondering if I can actually just lay the filler in the open joint and zip the torch over it? If so can I expect good strong penetration and consistency? The metal is 14 ga so thick enough it shouldn't be challenging or time consuming. If I did this should I also do a fusion weld on the inside corner? I want to knock these out fast but insuring a good long leak free life even with some abuse is top priority and a nice clean look is high up there as well. Lincoln precision TIG 275Millermatic 140 MIG
Reply:Lay the wire in the joint.. you said outside corner joint? I lay wire when putting a root in on pipe, so going off that, I would say lay the wire in the joint, probably about 10-15 degree angle and wiggle/walk the cup over the wire, no wider than the diameter of the wire for the first pass. If it's coming out too convex, you might want to extend the toes of the weld just enough to wash up a bit on both sides so you get it flat.For the second, lay the wire at the same angle right in the center of the previous weld (or in the top toe line) and wash the bead to the edges of the joint. I haven't done any corner joints with tig yet... so this is all sort of theoretical. Depending on the filler wire size you may need a third cap pass but probably not if the joint isn't very deep. But that's a beginner's comment. I'm sure someone with more experience can give you a better tip.If you don't want to walk it, you can freehand weave with a figure 8 pattern or a c shape pattern I guess.
Reply:Laywire will be fine, dipping would be fine too. They are the same speed if done correctly.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Did u test it for leaks.. some of those welds look a bit suspectSent w/ Tapatalk using Swype, pls excuse typosTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawDid u test it for leaks.. some of those welds look a bit suspectSent w/ Tapatalk using Swype, pls excuse typos
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveEven from a distance...looking rough.Yoshimitsuspeed - From my understanding "Lay wire" does not mean "lay it in the groove and let go." You are still in control of the feed rate when needed - just not dipping and pulling back - more of a constant feed.Dave J.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveEven from a distance...looking rough.Yoshimitsuspeed - From my understanding "Lay wire" does not mean "lay it in the groove and let go." You are still in control of the feed rate when needed - just not dipping and pulling back - more of a constant feed.Dave J.
Reply:See attached pic.This requires puddle and heat manipulation tolet the rod end melt and tail into the puddle, pretty much continuously.The rod is fed in--to feed the puddle as needed.No 'dipping' of the rod or rod back and forth motion. Attached ImagesBlackbird
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPugLaywire will be fine, dipping would be fine too. They are the same speed if done correctly.
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawDid u test it for leaks.. some of those welds look a bit suspectSent w/ Tapatalk using Swype, pls excuse typos
Reply:Originally Posted by yoshimitsuspeedOkay. Someone suggested lay wire as being faster. I am not terribly familiar with the method which is why I decided to look into it further.
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelsonLay rod is significantly faster as others have  mentioned,IF one can manipulate the torch, heat and puddle.
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelsonLay rod is significantly faster as others have  mentioned,IF one can manipulate the torch, heat and puddle.
Reply:Hello yoshimitsuspeed, for what it's worth, if you are welding materials other than aluminum and they are a "good corner to corner fit-up" you will likely realize your best speed/quality without the addition of filler material. If there is too much of a thinning effect by welding without filler then the dip method may very well be the second choice. An addition of filler, in some instances, provides the benefit of having anti-oxidizers and other agents that are present in the rod to provide for a more sound overall weld. The lay-wire technique was originally designed to provide for very exacting root pass applications in various piping scenarios where internal profiles are extremely important and not originally applied to "structural" applications although not excluded specifically. If you are concerned about internal/backside oxidation, either a backing gas or an application of solar flux would help to address that.If this is an aluminum application, the lay-wire technique has some definite downsides. Since the arc utilizes the reverse polarity side of the current for surface cleaning of oxides, using lay-wire prevents the action of this from occuring(the rod physically prevents/becomes a barrier to the cleaning action of the arc), also the backside of the wire that is against the piece and opposite of the arc isn't cleaned) this causes contaminants, mainly the inherent oxides on the surfaces of aluminum to become entrapped in the weld deposit. This scenario might be difficult for some folks to wrap their minds around, yet in more serious aluminum welding applications this is certainly considered and avoided. My two tin pennies to add to the conversation. Good luck and best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Thank you for the helpful info. This is a steel part. I have thought about a fusion weld without filler. The fitup on the outside corners is quite good and with a little massaging with the ballpein would probably be good enough. I have never welded something this important just doing a fusion weld and have been a little concerned it wouldn't be strong enough. With good tight fitup do you guys think it would be acceptable to do this without filler? I can get some pics of the fitup in the next couple days.  Originally Posted by aevaldHello yoshimitsuspeed, for what it's worth, if you are welding materials other than aluminum and they are a "good corner to corner fit-up" you will likely realize your best speed/quality without the addition of filler material. If there is too much of a thinning effect by welding without filler then the dip method may very well be the second choice. An addition of filler, in some instances, provides the benefit of having anti-oxidizers and other agents that are present in the rod to provide for a more sound overall weld. The lay-wire technique was originally designed to provide for very exacting root pass applications in various piping scenarios where internal profiles are extremely important and not originally applied to "structural" applications although not excluded specifically. If you are concerned about internal/backside oxidation, either a backing gas or an application of solar flux would help to address that.If this is an aluminum application, the lay-wire technique has some definite downsides. Since the arc utilizes the reverse polarity side of the current for surface cleaning of oxides, using lay-wire prevents the action of this from occuring(the rod physically prevents/becomes a barrier to the cleaning action of the arc), also the backside of the wire that is against the piece and opposite of the arc isn't cleaned) this causes contaminants, mainly the inherent oxides on the surfaces of aluminum to become entrapped in the weld deposit. This scenario might be difficult for some folks to wrap their minds around, yet in more serious aluminum welding applications this is certainly considered and avoided. My two tin pennies to add to the conversation. Good luck and best regards, Allan
Reply:First you need to go online and watch some TIG welding videos.You need a lot more experience to do this job. With aluminum welding there is potentialfor distortion. speed with MIG can get you into trouble. This kind of job and intricate detailswould be best with the TIG welding .The weldment design is important. You want to have to avoid welding both sides.If the plates are positioned correctly a single pass will get complete joint penetration.This weldment will need to attached to a fixture so that the part that connects to the engine does not get warped.As far as making money on this project, I do not see it unless you know a lot about manufacturing.That is another long discussion.AWS certified welding inspectorAWS certified welder
Reply:It seems I misunderstood what he was trying to do.Or just took it as a pipe weld. You literally lay the wire down and walk the torch over it.
Reply:I am really confused as to how my welding and fabrication skills became not only the main topic of conversation but have also taken a pretty hard beat down for some reason that I am completely unable to fathom. I show one distant shot of something I welded out of practice and in a hurry and suddenly I'm the worst welder on the forum. Now I know I am not the best welder on the forum and there is plenty I could still learn but welding and fabrication has been my life for over 10 years and I'd like to think I don't totally suck at it. I also don't think there is near enough information here for anyone to judge me as a welder, fabricator or businessman nor is it on topic or helpful to the point of the thread.Lincoln precision TIG 275Millermatic 140 MIG
Reply:Yoshi no hard feelings bud, I was just being honest from the heart. Remember, a kick in the butt is still a step foward! The lay wire technique is a text book standard technique for tig welding, and the fact that you thought it meant putting a piece of wire in a groove and fusion weld over it just screamed no experience or research to me. If you had just outright asked about the procedure of laying wire you probably would have gotten back all positive feedback because we would understand where your coming from then for not knowing and it being new to you. But building a detrimental part of a engine like a oil pan and mentioning you would like to get them done faster just sounds off a buzzer for me. Knowing that customers usually know zero about welding except they think we charge too much for time and labor lol, my intention was to let you know that you should put off jobs such as this until you master the craft of tig welding and feel confident in your abilities. Thats all bro, don't take offense and keep at it and just keep a open mind about what projects you take on until your 100% sure they won't come back to hurt you, and trust me, even then they can. Keep mocking them up and practing on them all the way bro, no doubt, and one day you will say wow, that azzhole mike was on the money, now I'm ready to pump these things out. Practice builds experience, and experience comes from bad decisions! Remember that and be cool! Cheers bud! I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:'If this is an aluminum application, the lay-wire technique has some definite downsides. Since the arc utilizes the reverse polarity side of the current for surface cleaning of oxides, using lay-wire prevents the action of this from occuring(the rod physically prevents/becomes a barrier to the cleaning action of the arc), also the backside of the wire that is against the piece and opposite of the arc isn't cleaned) this causes contaminants, mainly the inherent oxides on the surfaces of aluminum to become entrapped in the weld deposit. This scenario might be difficult for some folks to wrap their minds around, yet in more serious aluminum welding applications this is certainly considered and avoided. My two tin pennies to add to the conversation. Good luck and best regards, Allan'---either some of you folks (not necessarily you-Allan!) can't be bothered to take more than a glance at images posted, don't understand what's being shown, or have their minds made up-regardless of what's shown ordiscussed.Enlargement of the original image I posted--shows with blue outline and arrow--HF etching occurring as the puddle is run. In practice, the rod is off to one side or another of the puddle edge. The puddle melts and pulls in 'melt tail'--exposing the joint for preheat and parent fusion. The puddle continuously pulls the melt tail into itself.The rod was laid down for the picture.The speed is faster than dipping, the amps are cranked up, the torch and puddle see pretty goodmanipulation.[Yes--there's some contamination--this was an AL tool box repair to strengthen the bustedcorners with gussets plates. A plastic coating on the parent AL would not totally come off.Additionally, the argon flow was sweeping down and back up in the gap caused by thediamond plate, pulling some air into the weld area. For some of the time in running thebead, I laid the rod down close to this gap to help deflect the contaminated airflow--butthe melt tail of the rod still goes off to a puddle far side, exposing the parent to the arc.]Lay rod and versions of it--like firing off on the rod, not the parent, with amps turned up,high amp pulsing to melt the rod into the parent are used in SS, AL and Ti welding. All of thisand the emphasis on FAST is to limit total heat input, distortion, carbide precipitation, etc.Blackbird
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelson[I]The speed is faster than dipping, the amps are cranked up, the torch and puddle see pretty goodmanipulation.Lay rod and versions of it--like firing off on the rod, not the parent, with amps turned up,high amp pulsing to melt the rod into the parent are used in SS, AL and Ti welding. All of thisand the emphasis on FAST is to limit total heat input, distortion, carbide precipitation, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeYoshi no hard feelings bud, I was just being honest from the heart. Remember, a kick in the butt is still a step foward! The lay wire technique is a text book standard technique for tig welding, and the fact that you thought it meant putting a piece of wire in a groove and fusion weld over it just screamed no experience or research to me.
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPugAll of that can be done while dipping also, I don't see why laywire would be any faster or slower.
Reply:Yosh,OK, so you proved you're not a complete noob, but if you can't handle the heat of criticism and sift through the information you can use, you probably need something more than a pat on the back can provide.GarLast edited by Gar; 09-25-2013 at 01:11 AM.Lincoln Electric, Power MIG 256Hypertherm Powermax 45 Miller Dynasty 280DXSmith O/A torchGenesis of a welding table
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelson'All of that can be done while dipping also'It's faster since it's continuous, feeding and moving the puddle without any pausing of the filler rod, with the amps cranked uP, the puddle agitated and more torch motion.Originally Posted by SquirmyPugContinuous or not it is still the same amount of filler getting added to the puddle, more amps means you can push more faster with a faster travel speed. Torch motion isn't dependent on how you add filler, you can move the torch the same for laywire or dipping. When using the same amperage/filler size/gas/pulse(or none)/torch motion and whatever else, you can get the same size weld in the same amount of time. While laywire is continuous feeding, dipping you just push faster and then a short pause (equaling the same amount of filler). The only difference would be that dipping will leave more distinct ripples in the weld.    I'm not trying to argue or anything, just never heard of this. If you know of any videos or articles to read please feel free to send them to me in a PM, I'm always willing to learn something new.
Reply:Ok then, how about go fck yourself and stop asking questions since you already have all the answers!I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Here is a lay wire hot pass after a key-hole-dip root. http://welding-tv.com/2012/07/31/6g-...-the-hot-pass/And another version of the same stuff.http://welding-tv.com/how-to-tig-wel...ire-technique/Lay wire root pass:http://welding-tv.com/2013/06/19/6g-...***-using-tig/My take on the lay wire root pass is the gap and prep has to be dead on to use it and go fast, otherwise it's back to watching the puddle and dipping. Dave J.Last edited by MinnesotaDave; 09-25-2013 at 06:55 AM.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeOk then, how about go fck yourself and stop asking questions since you already have all the answers!
Reply:Uh oh... someone got butthurt on the Internet, imagine that.   My guess is that the Ricer forums are 10 times worse than us WW folks.  Probably a lot like the pirate 4x4 members...  Sent w/ Tapatalk using Swype, pls excuse typosTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Everyone gets "Prison Raped" on WW one time or another. Consider it a right of passage.Be lucky Sundown did not lay into you.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonEveryone gets "Prison Raped" on WW one time or another. Consider it a right of passage.Be lucky Sundown did not lay into you.
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawUh oh... someone got butthurt on the Internet, imagine that.   My guess is that the Ricer forums are 10 times worse than us WW folks.  Probably a lot like the pirate 4x4 members...
Reply:Originally Posted by yoshimitsuspeedPeople could at least have the courtesy of waiting till I drop the soap.
Reply:A Lincoln powermig w/pulse on pulse will absolutely slaughter production weld times on something like that. Just destroy it and minimize heat input/distortion tendancy as well. Time really does equal a lot of money when many welds have to be made. And look slick at the same time. Or, the Miller equivelent, I've only used Lincolns version myself.With a minimal amount of dial in time.Those machines have altered the universe for production welds, or even one off welds at a high rate.J
Reply:Hi.....my 2 cents worth as I do it differently to ya'all with my plasma welder.....I find laying the filler in the weld path gives you a more consistent weld joint, or bead, whatever.Waggling a filler rod in the weld puddle always gives you humpty bumpty weld beads due to having to balance your body weight for steadiness and having two thought processes going in a brain that can only handle one thought process at a time......manipulating the filler rod with the left hand and the Tig torch with the right while pumping a Tig pedal, all at the same timeWhen you lay the filler rod along the weld seam you can progressively blend the two sides and the SAME amount of filler as you proceed.......some people without the knack for dipping get weld pools of different volume and this gives you the alternating lumpy appearance, even though it does penetrate and give a completely good weld, the appearance is what most welders judge the finished weld by, and that is called embroidery.......you cannot tell the quality of a weld by it's appearance no matter what they tell you.Without cutting every weld you do open, you have to rely on your experience to know what is a good weld and what ain't, and if you haven't got that experience you end up here being blasted by all and sundry for no good reason.Just as a matter of interest.....the Pommie guy who posted here who makes custom aluminium petrol tanks for motorcycles, would have to be about the worst aluminium welder this side of hell........the weld beads were lumpy and full of cold fusion zones, but not to worry, once the welding was over the rough file was used to tidy it up, the re-weld was a normal practice for him to fill in all the bad bits and leak points to give a weld of good appearance once it had been filed over and polished.NOBODY criticised the welding procedure, as they were all wowed by the finished article and gushing about what a beautiful finished article it was.This, for a welding procedure, is similar to a normal steel fabrication weld where you grind the lumps off and polish the job to make it look good.......what's underneath apparently is irrelevant as long as it polishes up and looks good.So much for getting a good looking weld if it's going to be ground up to hide all the humps and bumps etc.Laying on the filler rod has to be the easiest method to get a pleasing and consistent weld bead.Ian.
Reply:DRUM ROLL...... The "Plasma Welder" is the perfect solution! I'm so sick of seeing it being boasted by ONE person for its credibility. I have a feeling said person will likely a post link(s) to try and further push a pile 'o sh!t. Pull your head out from betweenst your cheeks; NOBODY IS BUYING what ya've been trying to push POODY. No hard feelings Buddyyyyyyyyyy, but GOOD LORD GIVE IT A BREAK.Last edited by Softwireman78; 09-26-2013 at 02:06 AM.Late to bed, and early to rise. Fish like hell so I don't have to make up lies. Syncrowave 200MM211 & Spoolmate 100
Reply:and having two thought processes going in a brain that can only handle one thought process at a time.Ian.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelon
Reply:For the relentless "Plasma welder" advocateExcuse the needle/seat assembly. It weren't aposta been uploaded, and I can't remove it. Attached ImagesLast edited by Softwireman78; 09-26-2013 at 11:31 AM.Late to bed, and early to rise. Fish like hell so I don't have to make up lies. Syncrowave 200MM211 & Spoolmate 100
Reply:Huh, nothing quite like a closed mind......at least I own the outfit, so that qualifies me to brag about it.........some never seen it but seem to know what it can't do.....LOL.Ian.
Reply:Originally Posted by puddytatsome never seen it but seem to know what it can't do.
Reply:Originally Posted by puddytatHuh, nothing quite like a closed mind......at least I own the outfit, so that qualifies me to brag about it.........some never seen it but seem to know what it can't do.....LOL.Ian.
Reply:Oh yeah.......I'd like to see anyone use a new process and get "expert" or near good at it in a five minute out of town experience............I've had three years of using it, so when you can match that and comment I'll take anyone's comments seriously.I don't have to wonder that anyone finds plasma welding a strange experience when they haven't actually had more than a few minutes at it, and quite frankly I wouldn't accept a job from anyone using one that had just a few quick goes with it and came up with crap results.This is the same as me commenting on Stick Mig and Tig welding........I haven't done all that much of either, so I refrain from passing any comments on those processes due to the fact that I'm not a regular welder and wouldn't pass as one in the dark with the light behind me.But.......I have welded in industry for full pay status and never had a job turned own, so some of us are just quick to adapt or can't no matter how long they try.One thing's for sure, I'll never get an arc flash or inhale toxic fumes like some I know.Who gives a sh!t anyway, I'm comfortable with the process and that's important to me.Ian.
Reply:Plasma welding is strange, not like looking at your azzhole in the mirror, but definately strange.  I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Hi,there's nothing strange about a plasma welder, it's just another heat source and if you like gas welding or Tig welding the process is almost the same, just takes a bit of getting used to and manipulating the torch and the filler.I like the process because for a start it's economical and secondly you can use any odd stuff to act as a filler, or no filler at all, same as Oxy/Acc or Tig, and it's not too fussy if the weld zone isn't all that well prepared or not prepared at all.Laying on the wire is just another way to get the seam looking good.With that process you can concentrate on getting the weld pool to progress in an even manner.Quite often I have laid a whole bunch of short welding rod end bits in the seam, that got left over from regular stick welding, and just melt them into the seam as I move along.I use to keep the rod end bits to fill in gaps on jobs that couldn't be pulled together to close the seam.Just like Oxy/Acc, you do need practice.Ian.
Reply:Ian, I have talked to you before about plasma welding because its something that I would like to learn about. Any chance of you making a video or some pictures of the setup and how its all used? I haven't been able to find allot of info with searches.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Hi squirmy, the videos on UTUBE by the Plaz agents tell all as to how it works and what you can do.............there's nothing really magic about heating steel until it melts and forms a puddle.I can't add more in the process, except to re-state that it cost 2 grand and you need to practice to get to where you want to get, but it's an economical way to weld and cut without worrying about the gas running out or the cost of replacement gas bottle fills. The darn thing does work, but you need to work at it to get proficient, and five mins is just a look see to see the sparks fly, hardly time to judge your results.I have no vested interests in the company, and if the gear was not up to scratch I'd put it up on EBAY and sell it on.......I already have a full welding outfit of Stick, Mig and Tig, and have not used them since buying the 'Plaz three years ago now.BTW, I've just bought a 4.2Kva petrol generator giving two outlets of 240 volts at 15 amps each to go with the Plaz, purely to be able to be portable and run power tools down at the end of the garden or elsewhere instead of a long cable, so I'm really committed to the Plaz despite what some of the guys like to say.If you like the idea of doing either gas welding or Tig then that is how the Plaz operates more or less.Ian.
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPugIan, I have talked to you before about plasma welding because its something that I would like to learn about. Any chance of you making a video or some pictures of the setup and how its all used? I haven't been able to find allot of info with searches.
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawIf you ever get to the west coast. (Santa Monica) I am sure Margaret, the CEO would be happy to let u spend a day with her tech, trying it out.    That's what we did.   We came away with the impression that it was a good concept but could not justify the $2000 price tag it carries..   @ $500 to maybe 1k it should probably sell very well.   A more powerful version 2.0 with pump and tank fed water/alcohol and smaller gun could have a lot of potential. Sent w/ Tapatalk using Swype, pls excuse typos