Busted!!!

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"You can fool some of the people some of the time"Well not me.Remember this?http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...hlight=bracketWell the customer came in today and said "It vibrated apart"Bullcrap.I told him at first that I would repair it for FREE but upon further review..This part suffered "Blunt Force Trauma"...How do I know this?First of all it came back in 2 pieces..#3 is missing..Second of all study the pics below and see if you can figure out what happened..First pic is the piece after I cut off the tube in the bandsaw..Next post.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Keep looking..Now if something vibrated apart it would be in 2 pieces not 3..He said when he came back after I asked him "Where is the licence plate?".."It's in the garage I think"...These parts did not vibrate apart..There is NO evidence..Vibrated broken parts show wear where the pieces are rubbing back and fourth against each other..If it did come apart that way don't you think it would be in 2 pieces not 3?The post was bent...and bent back so that's why the piece broke in front of the weld..The light itself has a "Divot" in the chrome now and a NEW lens..(There are fingerprints INSIDE the lenz)...This piece was abused and that's the bottom line..So now do I charge him for a new one or just forget it?I will present my evidence to him tomorrow and then we'll see what the REAL story is..(Personally..I think he dumped the bike in the garage and won't admit it).....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:I would say you are right, he dumped it then bought a new lens. Like you said metal fatigue will show signs of rubbing against itself. See if he will own up to what really happened and then fix it and give him the bill, if he still plays dumb just hand all of the pieces back to him.miller... 225g, s32p, 250x, 304, 12vs, MSW41     victor o/a thermal dynamics cutmaster 50 lenco panel spotter        hobart hf-boxG3 Farms.....raising cattle, hay, kids and hell, ...oh yeah I'm a fire sprinkler contractor by trade.
Reply:I would reference you to my post on the earlier thread, reply #28, now I have the answer.
Reply:I bet he didn't ride the bike to your shop when he brought the part back, because I could just about gurantee that the fender is bent, meaning someone either rear ended him, he dropped it or backed into something, or possibly someone hit it with something, but it is definaetly not wear. I'd call him on it and tell him if he wants a new one he's gonna have to pay up.
Reply:Originally Posted by riceburnerI would reference you to my post on the earlier thread, reply #28, now I have the answer.
Reply:Originally Posted by JammerI bet he didn't ride the bike to your shop when he brought the part back, because I could just about gurantee that the fender is bent, meaning someone either rear ended him, he dropped it or backed into something, or possibly someone hit it with something, but it is definaetly not wear. I'd call him on it and tell him if he wants a new one he's gonna have to pay up.
Reply:This is an easy one.  Tell him that since this design didn't work out you are going try something different, but to do so you need to get some measurements off his scooter.  Tell him you need to stop by, and ask what time works for him?  I agree it is not a fatigue issue.  It snapped.  Your logic about 3 pieces vs. 2 is hard to argue with.Sent from my DROID3 using TapatalkJay DavisAWS-CWIC-60 Specialty Welding ContractorLoving husband, and father of two boys (
Reply:I agree that it was not a vibration issue, sure looks like a clean break from an impact. I would think if it was from vibration the wires on the light would be chaffed from the light dangling and hitting the wheel as he rode down the road. He probably would not have the license plate to bring to you because he would not know where it fell of at. I just don't think it all vibrated apart sitting in the driveway ( if it really did vibrate apart). If it had vibrated apart he would probably wanting you to pay for the repairs to the rest of the parts that it damaged ie paint. Was it your design or his? If it was his design doesn't matter what caused the failure since the welds didn't fail.
Reply:Zapster,I have done a lot of DOD shock and vibration work, and beat up a bunch of equipment and chassis.Vibration worries a joint for a better term, wiggle, wiggle, and compounds stress, which leaves a telltale sign of the vibration slowly tearing things apart. That part has a clean break, basically shock, your weld looks great and it broke outside of the weld area.Me I would redo it because the big holes in the flat plate make it suspectable to breaking. maybe an angled bend down either side. Happy customers come back, nail him next timeBut the short and sweet answer is he hit it somehow and busted it, I don't buy vibration for a nanosecond!!!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by fredschromZapster,I have done a lot of DOD shock and vibration work, and beat up a bunch of equipment and chassis.Vibration worries a joint for a better term, wiggle, wiggle, and compounds stress, which leaves a telltale sign of the vibration slowly tearing things apart. That part has a clean break, basically shock, your weld looks great and it broke outside of the weld area.Me I would redo it because the big holes in the flat plate make it suspectable to breaking. maybe an angled bend down either side. Happy customers come back, nail him next timeBut the short and sweet answer is he hit it somehow and busted it, I don't buy vibration for a nanosecond!!!!!
Reply:Yeah man, sometimes it's better to bite the bullet then fight the fight.Tim Beeker.
Reply:I would fix it then when you hand it back to him let him know that you know it wasn't caused by "vibration" but you're not going to charge him anyway. Then you'll probably have a customer for life plus word of mouth advertising to boot.Miller Challenger 172Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150Miller Maxstar 150 STLVictor 100CVictor JourneymanOxweld OAHarris O/ASmith O/A little torchNo, that's not my car.
Reply:Zap, those lights are made like such garbage they blow apart internally before anything else would break.
Reply:I'd fix it and tell him the next time he runs into something it won't be free.  Then smile and walk away.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Fix the bracket no charge if he buys a set of billet training wheels. I would try to shame him into admitting he dumped it if he doesnt I'd dump him
Reply:Unfortunately, I'm going to have to say that there was a fatigue failure involved in part of that bracket.In this picture you can see beach marks that occur during the time during the material is in a cyclic fatigue condition, and then then the brittle failure area below when the material had it, and seperatated pieces.This is almost identical to the example of a fatigue failure belowYou can read the beach marks description in text here:http://spaceflight.esa.int/impress/t...lossary_B.htmlWhat probably happened, is that the light assembly tuned up at a resonant frequency.So re-frabricating the assembly as it was before will end up the same way, so it needs to be stiffened at the bolt connection somehow, either with a different geometry or thicker material.Just my $0.02.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterKeep looking..Now if something vibrated apart it would be in 2 pieces not 3..He said when he came back after I asked him "Where is the licence plate?".."It's in the garage I think"...These parts did not vibrate apart..There is NO evidence..Vibrated broken parts show wear where the pieces are rubbing back and fourth against each other..If it did come apart that way don't you think it would be in 2 pieces not 3?The post was bent...and bent back so that's why the piece broke in front of the weld..The light itself has a "Divot" in the chrome now and a NEW lens..(There are fingerprints INSIDE the lenz)...This piece was abused and that's the bottom line..So now do I charge him for a new one or just forget it?I will present my evidence to him tomorrow and then we'll see what the REAL story is..(Personally..I think he dumped the bike in the garage and won't admit it).....zap!
Reply:It probably did come in contact with something, but the way in which to broke screams vibration.  IF it simply was broken off by contact it should have snapped through the weakest point (bolt holes) instead it fractured right along the HAZ where I would expect cracks to initiate.  That combined with the beach marks lead me to believe while it hadn't fallen off yet, it was probably already cracked before it was hit.And I don't know why you would make the assumption that it needs to be rubbing against something to vibrate, a thin bracket hanging off the end of a Harley with a big light on the end is going to vibrate plenty on its own.  Heck, if it was rubbing against anything it should vibrate less.My final thoughts?  It got hit with something, but it was going to crack eventually.  I'd eat the cost of the fix if he just wants it welded back together, but charge to make a new, stronger one.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:For starters I've owned several Harleys so I know a thing or two about Harleys and vibration. My first thoughts when I seen the thread where you made this thing I immediately thought aluminum was a poor choice of materials. Your welds and work were fine but you underestimated the forces of vibration at the rear fender of a rigid frame iron head sportster. The guy didn't hit anything it's plain and simple vibration killed your handy work.Do him a favor and fab him one of steel or stainless. This is the same reason its a bad idea to build trailers out of aluminum,it's not a matter of if it will fail just a matter of when.
Reply:hi, just curious. why didn't the hardware VIBRATE LOOSE ?  Put it back together and attach it to a hammer drill and show him it was not metal fatigue but driver error.If it was vibration he better get another bike.
Reply:Pics 4 and 7 show bends in the material.  That to me says he hit something, but the main argument I've got against vibration (this time) is that both the plate and the light broke off.  What's the odds of two different shapes and weights causing failure at the same time?My name's not Jim....
Reply:You guys need to get yourselves a rigid frame solid mount Harley and you might realize that this was a fatigue failure.
Reply:I'll chime in and say it was a hit. I ride a 73 iron head hard tail. I've had bolts vibrate loose, nuts vibrate loose, anything you can think of vibrate off the bike. Never had a weld break on the headlight or tail light and they are both aluminum. Also the missing part makes me wonder if he dropped the bike and bent the plate. Either way I'd weld it up maybe add a few gussets and call it a day. Make up for it next time he comes in for work. Happy customers are return customers.
Reply:Is that an impact mark on the edge near the light?Originally Posted by jwbIs that an impact mark on the edge near the light?
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterYes it is and it was not there when it left after I made it..I already made a new bottom piece and just need another licence plate or the size and bolt pattern to make a replacement for the bracket..I'll do it for free and gussetts will be added but I will make a point of it not vibrating apart..Lesson for all you newbies to the metal world..LOOK at what failed and get a idea of what/why it happened.....zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by Ford.crazyI'll chime in and say it was a hit. I ride a 73 iron head hard tail. I've had bolts vibrate loose, nuts vibrate loose, anything you can think of vibrate off the bike. Never had a weld break on the headlight or tail light and they are both aluminum. Also the missing part makes me wonder if he dropped the bike and bent the plate. Either way I'd weld it up maybe add a few gussets and call it a day. Make up for it next time he comes in for work. Happy customers are return customers.
Reply:Go back and read post #15 of the original thread when this thing was made.I predicted this exact scenario. It will happen again as long as that piece is welded aluminum.
Reply:DLite & Showdog have it right.  There's no doubt it's a fatigue failure.  Zap, your workmanship is indisputable, but you should consult a metallurgist about the failure.Dynasty 300DXSmith He/Ar gas mixerMM350PHobart Handler 120Smith LW7, MW5, AW1A
Reply:Is it not possible the plate broke off first. Then the light, both from fatigue, on the same ride.It;s hard to explain, but the light and plate sort of cancel each other out, when the plate breaks, the vibration has no where to go, so off comes the light. Hence the 3 breaks and the slight bend in the tab.
Reply:Originally Posted by Showdog75When it did break off I'm sure it didn't land on a feather pillow hence the impact marks.btw I'm not a newbie.
Reply:Those rigid framed 4speed bikes are bastards, been patching and bu ildin em for yrs. Zap you will make the next one sronger and hell be back with a broken fender next.
Reply:Originally Posted by fredschromZapster,I have done a lot of DOD shock and vibration work, and beat up a bunch of equipment and chassis.Vibration worries a joint for a better term, wiggle, wiggle, and compounds stress, which leaves a telltale sign of the vibration slowly tearing things apart. That part has a clean break, basically shock, your weld looks great and it broke outside of the weld area.Me I would redo it because the big holes in the flat plate make it suspectable to breaking. maybe an angled bend down either side. Happy customers come back, nail him next timeBut the short and sweet answer is he hit it somehow and busted it, I don't buy vibration for a nanosecond!!!!!
Reply:Worked in a chandelier and lamp repair shop.And people would pick stuff up and throw it in thier SUVs. And I would tell them its going to break riding like that. They would always say some crap about they know what they are doing. And act like I'm a problem.All the time people would bring stuff back broken and say it fell apart. Or what ever and want it fix for free.The only way we found to combat this issue was a inpection sign off sheet before they left with the item. Which was annoying and extra work. But you can't do too much about them saying it fell apart.But yes it happen all the time. They break it and blame you. So they can get it fixed for free.Both men and women did this all the time.ThermalArc 161STL TIG/Stick (160amp)Lincoln weld-pak 100 (fluxcore)4X6 Enco bandsaw10" skillsaw with metal blade for 45degrees (works)4" grinderWeld for fun. Very rare I do it for Money.
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Reply:Im going to say it was bent and he tried to straighten it, it may have happened a few times and it eventually broke. Wouldnt take too much to bend it, someone would just have to walk by and lean on it or he could have bumped a few things moving the bike around the garage.
Reply:Originally Posted by Showdog75When it did break off I'm sure it didn't land on a feather pillow hence the impact marks.btw I'm not a newbie.
Reply:I dont know what happened, you guys have me bouncing back and forth......One thing i wouldn't do is call him out as a lier. Even if your as polite as possible and fix it for free. it could be very embarrassing for him, even if he doesn't show it. So much so that he may not want to come back. Im not saying do it for free. Just be thoughtful.www.performancealuminumfabrication.com
Reply:I'm curious. Was aluminum the right choice for this part? A bike like that, right above the tire has to have a LOT of vibration. Especially if those guys are trigger happy. Would SS have been better?Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Zap, you wil have a constant flow of money coming your way when you deal with those solid mount motor rigid frame harleys, trust me. There isnt enough loctite and gussets you can put on them to keep em together, and they eat rubber mounts like cookies till you have parts flopping everywhere. Those frames where designed for 45mph, with a small cubic inch motor on a dirt road sixty yrs ago, not a balss out screaming 85 plus hp motor doing 75mph on the highway. They look cool as hell tho, thats why theyre so popular. But bottom line they never hold up long no matter what you do. Very frustrating as a fabricator.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterYes it is and it was not there when it left after I made it..I already made a new bottom piece and just need another licence plate or the size and bolt pattern to make a replacement for the bracket..I'll do it for free and gussetts will be added but I will make a point of it not vibrating apart..Lesson for all you newbies to the metal world..LOOK at what failed and get a idea of what/why it happened.....zap!
Reply:Failure had nothing to do with Zap's workmanship.Failure is due to the material selected.  Think Showdog hit the nail on the head.Aluminum is a poor choice of material when the part will be subjected to constant, hi frequency vibration.  Parts will fail with NO WARNING.My choice of materials would be SS or mild steel and have it chrome plated.  Isolation mounts are only a bandaid for a deeper problem.Make it strong enough that it takes the fender with it next time.  (and there will be a next time)Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Well the owner never came back today but one of his buddy's told me the bike only has 3 miles on it since I made the bracket...It was running like crap..He sent it to a repair shop...Took it home in his truck and lost it on the way down the ramp..Bounced off the wall and onto the floor.Remember one thing here guys..It is "Winter" here and nobody has been riding anything for a few months now...Now the owner is NOT what you would call a hard core biker..130 LBS soaking wet..5'5" tall..bald and wears glasses and looks like the guy polishing his headlights in the Mother's commercial..He is WAY out of his league on this bike..You should have been here the day he picked the bike up..The starter crapped out and he had to have his friend kick start it for him because he could not do it.Now about this vibration theory..PUT IT TO REST!...zap!Last edited by zapster; 02-21-2012 at 03:49 PM.I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Perhaps, for the future, get yourself a tool that you can use to secretly put some markings on things (e.g. the Lens) so you can check later to determine if it was swapped out.That way you know for sure.My .02 worth.Working on cars and bikes is my hobby, learning to weld the pieces together is my quest.
Reply:Maybe it hit something when he put it on the truck?Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by zapster...(snipped)(he)Took it home in his truck and lost it on the way down the ramp..Bounced off the wall and onto the floor.(snipped)...zap!
Reply:I think he was posting as I was editing..How we been bud?...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:The more I think about this whole thing...I'll take the high road and make him another one with gussets hand it to him and say "Have A Nice Day"After I found out the real story all I can think of is a little kid at the ice cream stand..Gets a nice big chocolate cone with sprinkles and takes 3 steps away and it falls on the ground.."Come back to the window son..I'll make you another one"..I am such a nice guy....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterThe more I think about this whole thing...I'll take the high road and make him another one with gussets hand it to him and say "Have A Nice Day"After I found out the real story all I can think of is a little kid at the ice cream stand..Gets a nice big chocolate cone with sprinkles and takes 3 steps away and it falls on the ground.."Come back to the window son..I'll make you another one"..I am such a nice guy....zap!