Plasma air supply

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Hi All,I am seriously considering getting a plasma cutter. But I think I am going to run into an annoying problem.I've got plenty of power (200A service) and compressed air (7HP).The potential headache is the air. It is wet. No matter how many times I drain the tank, paint jobs get ruined, blowing crud off machines leaves droplets behind, my gloves ice up when using the whizwheel...Is there a water trap, other than expensive to purchase and expensive to operate air chillers, that actually work?What about processes that will eliminate water from the air tank?Any help would be appreciated.Thanks,MikeBe wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:I have a trap I made that catches  lot of water.I took an old 43lb R-134a tank with no valve stem, put a short 3/4'' pipe length coming out of the tank, put a Tee on that, reduced the horizontally opening down to where an air QD will mate to it. Then put an 6 inch length of pipe into the lower Tee fitting and put another tee fitting on top of it, with the second air fitting pointing horizontal. Then joined a 3/4'' ball valve to the end of the string. To remove water I turn the tank upside down and open the valve.I plug the input air into the lower fitting, air goes up to the higher fitting and most of the water goes down into the tank.I also run a moisture filter, charcoal filter and particle filter at the plasma cutters air inlet just to be safe, after all its only a $1700 plasma cutter that I cant afford to replace right now if it broke.old Miller spectrum 625 Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wireMiller model 250 and WP-18V torchCraftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torchCentury 115-004 HF arc stabilizerHome made 4 transformer spot welderHome made alternator welder
Reply:See this post. http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...t-a-differenceJim seems to really know what he's talking about and I'm contemplating the system for the shop myself now.
Reply:Ah.... yeah.Reading that thread is what got me started on this one. He's got good dry air out there already. He's looking to upgrade his supply.I've already got the supply. I need the dry part.-----------Mad welder 4,I can't quite picure what you built. I know what a refrigerant tank is (I just pulled one from service as a portable air tank). So remove the factory valve and there is pipe fitting. The tank holds the captured water that you drain off via the 3/4" ball valve. Got all that.Here's what I think you've got: - 2 T fittings: 1 about 3/4" above the tank and the other 6" above the first.-  The one closer to the tank is oriented so that there is a vertical passage from the tank to the 6" pipe and the sideways connection is the 'wet' air inlet.- The upper T is oriented the same way with the bottom to the 6" pipe the top to the drain valve and the side is the 'dry' air outlet.So the incoming air slams agaist the inside of the T and has to travel upwards 6" and then turn 90 degrees again all while gravity is pulling the water down into the tank.Got it! [I'd post a smilie here but we don't have one with a light bulb]Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:I have a 5HP craftsman compressor, bought a $25 air filter/drier at my local NAPA store.  My Hypertherm Powermax 30 plasma cutter is happy happy happy with the air it gets.  I bought it several years ago, the price may be 40 or 50 bucks today, but still not expensive by any measure.- MondoMember, AWSLincoln ProMIG 140Lincoln AC TombstoneCraftsman Lathe 12 x 24 c1935Atlas MFC Horizontal MillCraftsman Commercial Lathe 12 x 36 c1970- - - I'll just keep on keepin' on.
Reply:Sorry. misunderstood. Just tryin' to help.
Reply:Originally Posted by mike837go....What about processes that will eliminate water from the air tank?....
Reply:Originally Posted by jlamesSorry. misunderstood. Just tryin' to help.
Reply:Originally Posted by MondoAin't gonna happen.  It is a fact of life that you will need to drain accumulated water from the bottom of the receiver periodically.  Every day if the compressor is used daily.The only way I can think of for elliminating water from the receiver is an elaborate chiller/separator/collector system between the compressor dischange and the receiver inlet.  For a 7HP compressor this just isn't going to be economically feasible.- Mondo
Reply:Thanks Mike. Your "'s cool" right now couldn't be more appropriated since right now I'm sittin' in the tractor, eating lunch the wife brought out to me after working on dragging the pasture of weeds with a "cool one" in my hand on my i-Pad right now! Life's grand when you can reach the  internet from the middle of nowhere!!!
Reply:Read any of Jim Colts messages and look around a bit.  You can find the dessicant pretty easily and then all you need is a vessel and some plumbing and you can build your own as big as you would like...BobI'm spending my Kids inheritance, I dont like him that much anyway!!!!!!Enuff tools to do the job, enough sense to use em.Anybody got a spare set of kidneys?  Trade?
Reply:The first thing to do is to install an automatic drain on your compressor. Harbor freight has one for about $10 that drains the tank (receiver) with every compressor cycle. Next, assuming you must be in a humid climate, you will need one of these setups:1. If you are a hobby type user with occasional use, install a MotorGuard M26 filter at least 20 feet away (downstream) from your compressor. Put a 150 psi pressure gauge right at your plasma (so you can monitor inlet pressure) and you likely will be in good shape. When the M26 filter element gets saturated, you will notice that the plasma inlet pressure (measured at the gauge you installed when the air is flowing through the torch)will start dropping in compraison to the pressure at your compressor. Keep a spare element and replace when this happens, put the saturated filter in a dry place and let it dry out for re-use.2. If you are busier than the average hobbyist you may want to start searching for a refrigerated air dryer.  Every auto body shop has one, and when they go out of business or upgrade to larger systems their old equipment finds its way to Craigslist. I bought a Dayton SpeedAire refrigerated dryer for $75, new it was about $800.  The refrigerated dryers cool the air out of the compressor which condenses (turns the moisture from fine aerosols into larger droplets) the moisture then passes it through a coalescing filter which centrifugally spins the heavy water particles, separating them from the air, and draining with either a manual or automatic drain valve. Harbor freight also has a refrigerated dryer that reportedly works well for about $450, occasionally on sale. I live in NH, it is humid for summer months, relatively dry during the rest of the year. I shut the refrigerated dryer off during dry months as it is not needed with the auto drain on my compressor doing an adequate job.There are all kinds of dessicant dryers. Large ones as used in bodyshops are self regenerating, and can cost more than a refrigerated dryer. Low cost ones usually are simply a cannister of dessicant beads that your air passes through....if your air is real wet these will require maintenance periodically. One thing is for certain...if you use a dessicant dryer be sure to have a fine particulate filter after the dryer....so fine particles of the dessicant do not get in your plasma system.Last, some plasma systems are seriously affected by moisture, generally an issue with torch design. I have a Powermax30 and a Powermax 45 that get used outside of my shop on a small compressor that creates a lot of moisture. I forget to drain the tank most of the time, and water literally spits out of the torch. Never had an issue with either plasma, and there are no filters, no water traps, other than the small onboard filter regulator units.  If you live in a dry climate (Arizona as an example) there generally is no need for any water removal equipment.Jim Colt   HyperthermLast edited by jimcolt; 10-18-2013 at 06:12 PM.
Reply:I think the oil causes most of the problems with plasma cutters. I figure if you get the water out of the air stream you get most of the oil too, that is why I run a charcoal filter.Here is a pic of my air tree, the air water separator is very similar. The main difference is the length of pipe between the upper and lower air connections. Attached ImagesLast edited by mad welder 4; 10-18-2013 at 06:50 PM.old Miller spectrum 625 Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wireMiller model 250 and WP-18V torchCraftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torchCentury 115-004 HF arc stabilizerHome made 4 transformer spot welderHome made alternator welder
Reply:look up the kitty litter air drier Cheap and easy to make out of an old sand blaster pot or any good tankBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:run a vertical drop in the line and put a trap/filter at the bottom..Say you run an airline on the wall at 4 ft, put a drop of 2 feet in it and put a filter/water separator at the bottom then return the line up to the 4 ft level... If you have enough pressure and volume you can make a desiccant filter pretty cheap..Last edited by brucer; 10-18-2013 at 08:09 PM.tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:Brucer is correct.  There is always moisture condensing in the compressor tank.  Hard to stop that.  If you run a rubber or poly air hose, the hose will be cooler than the air in the compressor and the moisture condenses in the hose and gets blown out into your projects.  If you go with hard line, permanently mounted, the moisture will condense in the hard line ( the longer the line, the more moisture will condense).  When you get near the end of the hard line, put a vertical drop in it and install a good moisture trap/ pressure regulator at the end of the line.  I use that setup with my Hypertherm and have had zero moisture issues.  My hardline runs abut 40 feet from the compressor to the point where the trap/regulator mounts.  Then run your flexible hose from that.  Always keep your compressor tank properly drained.  Those Harbor Freight auto drains usually quit working after a few months.Miller Syncrowave 350Millermatic 252/ 30A spoolgunMiller Bobcat 225g w/ 3545 spoolgunLincoln PowerArc4000Lincoln 175 Mig  Lincoln 135 Mig Everlast 250EX TigCentury ac/dc 230 amp stickVictor O/AHypertherm 1000 plasma
Reply:Originally Posted by jimcoltThe first thing to do is to install an automatic drain on your compressor. Harbor freight has one for about $10 that drains the tank (receiver) with every compressor cycle. Next, assuming you must be in a humid climate, you will need one of these setups:...
Reply:The Hypertherm air filter is a bit better than the Motorguard in that it has a means for draining moisture, and it is a coalescing type water separater. The Motorguard is simple and less expensive, I belive the original poster was concerned with how much it was going to cost to control moisture levels in his air system, so I was trying to provide options between the best (also most costly) process as well as the lowest cost easy solution.The highest cost yet cheapest to maintain is the refrigerated dryer. The lowest cost, but typically highest maintenence are filters with disposable elements.Jim Colt  Hypertherm Originally Posted by k45Jim,I'm surprised that you didn't mention the Hypertherm air filtration kithttp://www.hypermaxonline.com/Hypert...647_p_427.htmlNot as good of a choice as the MotorGuard?
Reply:I'm curious and i have not had my coffee yetBut why couldn't you take either a 2 to 3 in dia iron pipe.About 3 or 4 feet long and fill it with marbles run the air in from the bottom and put a Tee on top take air out the sideSeems to me that glass marbles would be great for gathering the condensation and would be less restrictive to airflow put a drain valve on the bottommaybe use it as a ruffing filter ...something after your tank that would remove a bulk amount of moisture and would not be very restrictive to flowMaybe i'm suffering coffee withdrawal and delusional Last edited by killdozerd11; 10-19-2013 at 11:56 AM.Backed my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Here is an air dryer I built years ago. Works great!  Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:^ Do you fill the barrel with water? Looks like a moonshine thingy to me. I like and most likely will do the same thing on the wall with the up and down piping. However at the bottom for the drains it would be good to have a little longer drop outs to get the water down and away from the passing air flow.I leave the drain on the bottom of my tank cracked ever so slightly open all the time to drain off water. Under the drain I put a small container to catch the water and then it evaporates off over night.Right now I just have a centrifugal water separator on my line out.
Reply:Originally Posted by VPT^ Do you fill the barrel with water?
Reply:>Very interesting.When sombody mentioned buying a used refridgerated dryer, I remembered that I have a wall-mounted water cooler kicking around.If I modify the water tank without disturbing the refridgeration: - Air inlet around 1/2 way up - Air outlet at the top - Small drain at the bottom set to leak a little at all times it is in service.Whatcha think?{And yes, I suck at spelling}Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:Near the bottom and on the side of my compressor tank is a petcock. It was always spitting slimy water out. When I got a plasma torch I knew I had to do something about it. I removed the petcock and noticed it used to have a hose connected inside. I replaced the hose and now the moisture is under control. I hope that makes sense and hopefully you just need a hose connected to the side drain petcock.
Reply:Home Depot sells both Ingersoll rand ($119.00) and Campell Hausfeld ($99.00) oil/water separator/filters.  I have the CH and it works like a champ for my compressor and plasma cutter.Lincoln Power Mig 216Lincoln AC/DC-225/125Miller  625 X-Treme PlasmaMiller 211 Forney 95FI-A 301HF 91110Victor Journeyman O/PMilwaukee DaytonMakita  Baileigh NRA Life MemberOriginally Posted by SuperArcHome Depot sells both Ingersoll rand ($119.00) and Campell Hausfeld ($99.00) oil/water separator/filters.  I have the CH and it works like a champ for my compressor and plasma cutter.
Reply:You need a coalescing filter/water separator. You can get them anywhere for under $75, they will pull water out of the air and collect it in a glass bowl, mount it as close to the plasma cutter as you can and drain it regularly, That should pull most of the water out, then put the motorcraft filter after the coalescer and enjoy your dry air.
Reply:Originally Posted by mike837goAbout $100 to protect a $1,000+ unit? Sounds like a good value to me. If you can find 'em.Are they actually on display at the stores? I've looked.
Reply:Proper distribution piping is a big help,  with the line sloped, the over head take offs and the drop lines and drains, Attached ImagesLast edited by Farmerboy; 10-31-2013 at 09:49 PM.
Reply:"Proper distribution piping...."I printed that diagram out.'Cause right now my compessor's 3/4" NPT outlet is reduced to 1/2" then T'd to two 1/4 lines: Regulated and unregulated. All within 18" of the compressor. Then 50' and 10' hoses to the tools.I've been planning on a hard piping upgrade for years. You've just given me the last piece to make it work.Thank you!Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:first your welcomeI plumbed my shop air as in the diagram, and I have not had moisture problems, (I may live in a dryer climate and that helps),   but when I worked off the compressor I would get water spitting out as well,  and since, I got the hard piping in  I have not had moisture problems, I also set the compressor in a storage area,  and do not have to listen to it now, (the two stage is much quitter than the old single state unit),  I have almost thought that the compressor was connected to the telephone ringer,  phone ring the compressor would kick on, also put a extended drain on the compressor with a 1/4 turn valve so it is very easy to drain,
Reply:As many have stated, run about 40' of line from your compressor to your first filter or outlet.  If your outlet or filter is right next to the compressor it won't cool off enough to condense all the way.
Reply:Originally Posted by Farmerboy...compressor in a storage area,  and do not have to listen to it now..., also put a extended drain on the compressor with a 1/4 turn valve so it is very easy to drain,