4130 to 4130 Procedure Problems

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I am trying to get a procedure done using AK-10 wire to join two pieces of 4130 partial pen. The problem I am having is the HAZ is way too hard. Trying to meet Vickers 250 and we are hitting around the 300's. What are some tricks to get the HAZ down to spec on Vickers?
Reply:Could you pre heat and slow the cooling?Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Originally Posted by ABaggettI am trying to get a procedure done using AK-10 wire to join two pieces of 4130 partial pen. The problem I am having is the HAZ is way too hard. Trying to meet Vickers 250 and we are hitting around the 300's. What are some tricks to get the HAZ down to spec on Vickers?
Reply:Looks like AK-10 is basically ER100S-G.That filler is going to require preheat and Post weld stress relief. What are your base metal thicknesses?Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:I'd have to work up some numbers tomorrow & see. It appears they think you can get the haz below 150ksi strength and not drop some parent material outside it below 100-110ksi. Depending on section that may be a tall order.I assume they are taking shallow penetration tests at the toe of the weld, how many and are they trying to identify the different zones working back from the toe into the 4130???The short answer is you can move things a lot with preheat (but maybe much higher than you are used to) and more with preheat, controlled heat input and sometimes temperbead but not as much as with hydrogen control preheat (lower temps) and proper PWHT.Matt
Reply:the preheat, inter-pass temperature, the heat input and the post-weld heattreatment are important.
Reply:I forgot this:CE = C+Mn/6+Cr/5+Mo/5+V/5+Ni/15+Cu/15 ( 4130 = 0,75 )t8/5= 100 sec
Reply:I didn't get back till late but I was thinking pretty much the same as denlow60 posted above. I usually pin the CE to max listed chemistry unless I have a material cert or Jominy test so I'll figure 4130 @ .70 (it can be a low of CE = .55). Material section & joint geometry make a difference - so - for a butt weld (using GMAW) on a 2" section @ .70CE I want 415-425F for a safe pre-heat (if a Jominy or cert says .55CE - safe heat would be 280-300F - big difference). Those pre-heats are figuring GMAW (gas flux)- 18V-280A settings & 12-14IPM travel which works out to .42kj/inch heat input from the weld (there really is no normal for joining, there's just lots of possibilities).Changing heat input - changes pre-heats some, lower energy welds need more pre-heat. Never the less, those settings won't get you below the 300HV the OP is looking for - I'm pretty sure. When I saw the post I was actually thinking 6-700F range (martensite starts to form around 700F with this stuff). This is where that t8/5 number matters, (cool-down speed from 800 to 500C where steel "makes a promise to get hard" if forced quickly enough through this heat range).I was looking for an AWS link from Walt Sperko that I'd used to help a customer out once when I chanced upon another by Arc Specialties. It fits the material & it fits the testing method probably used so the fact that it's hot wire GTAW can be ignored IMO (manual GTAW is not allowed for this BTY, per ASME sec. IX - c. QW-290 "Temper Bead Welding").Anyway it's a power point presentation that shows the method & results with this material (could've included more parameters like settings for energy input, but no biggie). here-> http://www.arcspecialties.com/docume...20on%20HAZ.pdf(on edit) I forgot to mention that pre-heats ranged 400-700F and WI on the penetration test pictures = weld interface.Good luckMattLast edited by Matt_Maguire; 12-09-2013 at 10:35 AM.Reason: Add information
Reply:Denlow and Matt. You guys are bending my mind. I bookmarked that link Matt. Denlow, I  have not thought about temperbeading in years.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:I have trouble with it too shovelon... I thank the almighty for folks who go to the trouble and expense of putting things like the arcspecialties document out there from time to time. And I just noticed my settings should have said 28V-280A @ 12-14IPM to be right... Oh well...People have in fact been doing work arounds forever (like Gleason Eng. out in Cali with sub-arcing HTLA cranks with hardness control). It's nice that some engineering angels (like these guys, Walter Sperko et al.) have decided to actually put things under one hat. ASME was a natural, they are engineers & tradesmen, they fix a lot when replacement would be delayed, near impossible - etc. So let's look into it!I hoped sometime I'd post about how I work up my recipes when I have to do a re-claim by overlay or bore weld including building the WPS for direct hardening material. What had always been missing was an easy way to determine hardenabilty without certs, jominy samples, spectrum analysis etc. When I do the weld I've always had the inside info needed... By chance early last year I stumbled over this -> http://www.aws.org/wj/supplement/WJ_2008_11_s273.pdfShazzam!!! - Now a man with a cutting torch can get at it if he knows where he can get a hardness test done - game changer!Also, there is the 2005 document Walter S. put out that speaks to temperbeading so even I can understand it, sometimes... here -> http://www.sperkoengineering.com/htm...per%20Bead.pdfSometimes my understanding seems to be not so good... But it's still good to have angels out there that promote the craft & help fill in some blanks!On edit, at the last of the first link (hardenabilty) the authors state "These welding procedures should not be applied to weld repair code-welded steel coupon"...   I was amazed at how close they got!MattLast edited by Matt_Maguire; 12-09-2013 at 03:23 PM.Reason: Add info.