Tig question about tungsten dipping in puddle

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Hey everyone. From time to time everyone ends up sticking that tungsten right in the puddle and you get to watch it soak it up like a wick. What about when you hover too close and you get right to the edge of contanimation but it seems the arc keeps the puddle away and she squeals a bit but you don't contaminate the tungsten.  This is a rare deal but my question is this: Does this affect the weld quality at all? Such as inducing something to the puddle or blowing something into it. It is similar to when you burry stick  electrode into puddle and it blows out or bubbles a bit. In that case I know you can possibly bury slag or gases and cause porosity. It doesn't seem to look different on finished weld but am worried gases could get trapped. Hope I am clear enough on this.Millermatic 252Lincoln 175 plusTA 185tswTA 161stlhypertherm pmax 45Victor torchHenrob torchAn S10 for each day of the week
Reply:Next time you have this happen STOP and let the area cool a bit then take a grinder to the area and buzz off the top and tell me what you see..I'll bet 10 bucks that it's all porous underneeth the top of the weld..Grind it all out and do it again..Dipping tungsten is never good and sometimes small pieces of the tungsten will get in the puddle and if you need to machine the weld for some reason the tungsten will dull/break your cutting tool very quickly..Been there done that but don't do it anymore.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Thanks for the response zapster. When I actually dunk it in I always grind it out and start over but I have never done it when this happens cause it seems that it never affected anything including the tungsten. When I get a chance I will try and replicate the scenario and see what happens. It is a rare occurance since usually if you get too close you end up touching the puddle and it gets on the tungsten.Millermatic 252Lincoln 175 plusTA 185tswTA 161stlhypertherm pmax 45Victor torchHenrob torchAn S10 for each day of the week
Reply:Gagging the tungsten happens to everybody. Usually it doesn't leave anything if you just barely gag it but if you bury it up to the nutsack, it's gonna need grinding out. The only time that I gag it on purpose is when I'm tacking aluminum with AC and it's an outside corner joint that wont flow together, You've seen it too, I'm sure.  Those two little puddles that form, then try to melt away from each other rather than flow together like you want them to. I'll lightly touch the tungsten to the puddles and make them bridge.  It gets the tungsten funky but I do all the tacking, then clean up the tungsten before actually welding.Two turn tables and a microphone.
Reply:Originally Posted by PangeaGagging the tungsten happens to everybody. Usually it doesn't leave anything if you just barely gag it but if you bury it up to the nutsack, it's gonna need grinding out. The only time that I gag it on purpose is when I'm tacking aluminum with AC and it's an outside corner joint that wont flow together, You've seen it too, I'm sure.  Those two little puddles that form, then try to melt away from each other rather than flow together like you want them to. I'll lightly touch the tungsten to the puddles and make them bridge.  It gets the tungsten funky but I do all the tacking, then clean up the tungsten before actually welding.
Reply:Originally Posted by S obsessedThanks for the response zapster. When I actually dunk it in I always grind it out and start over but I have never done it when this happens cause it seems that it never affected anything including the tungsten. When I get a chance I will try and replicate the scenario and see what happens. It is a rare occurance since usually if you get too close you end up touching the puddle and it gets on the tungsten.
Reply:Its on! Ha ha! I will try and make some time tomorrow to do a little experimenting. So everyone place your betsMillermatic 252Lincoln 175 plusTA 185tswTA 161stlhypertherm pmax 45Victor torchHenrob torchAn S10 for each day of the week
Reply:I'll hold the money!
Reply:Originally Posted by S obsessed What about when you hover too close and you get right to the edge of contanimation but it seems the arc keeps the puddle away and she squeals a bit but you don't contaminate the tungsten.
Reply:^ I am talking about being so close that 99% of the time you would be in the puddle but it seems the arc force pushes the puddle out of the way. Like I said it is rare and will be difficult to replicate but I will give it a shot today hopefull and post back some findings.Millermatic 252Lincoln 175 plusTA 185tswTA 161stlhypertherm pmax 45Victor torchHenrob torchAn S10 for each day of the week
Reply:Originally Posted by S obsessed Does this affect the weld quality at all? Such as inducing something to the puddle or blowing something into it. It is similar to when you burry stick  electrode into puddle and it blows out or bubbles a bit. In that case I know you can possibly bury slag or gases and cause porosity. It doesn't seem to look different on finished weld but am worried gases could get trapped. Hope I am clear enough on this.
Reply:So I completely ran out of time at shop today. My primary objective was to primer a car and I didn't get a chance to fire up the machine. Wednesday I will be able to try it out. I'll do three runs. 1 with good bead, 1 with completely dunked tungsten, and 1 with the arc blowing the puddle a little. I will grind em down and see what happens. Stay tuned.Millermatic 252Lincoln 175 plusTA 185tswTA 161stlhypertherm pmax 45Victor torchHenrob torchAn S10 for each day of the week
Reply:Okay so here are the results of the little test. Sorry it took a while to do, things have been very crazy around here. I did three beads. 1st was a regular run. 2nd was with getting the tungsten so close to the puddle in a spot that it pushes the puddle by what seems arc force and possible induces some gas or porosity. 3rd is a straight up dip into the puddle but not sticking the tungsten and breaking it, just contaminating it. I will put a little description under each picture. Front sideBack sideTungsten after running bead 1 and also after close encounter with bead 2. No noticable contamination cause it never touched the puddle.Tungsten after dipping in puddle and finishing weld out.Grinding the front sideGrinding the back sideConclusions: You can not see the porosity since it kept smearing as I was grinding but on bead 2 where I had the close encounter there was a very small spot with extremely small pockets or holes about size of end of pin. Bead 3 had slightly larger pockets but in a greater area. When running a couple of practice beads I noticed that running a 2nd pass over top had some mixed results with the underlying porosity in a bead like number 2. I am guessing sometimes getting close does not effect and sometimes you can induce some porosity. So depending on what your welding I am thinking it would be okay to get away with a bead like number 2 since that little amount of porosity probably won't hurt but it should really be ground out and redone. Let me know what you guys think.Millermatic 252Lincoln 175 plusTA 185tswTA 161stlhypertherm pmax 45Victor torchHenrob torchAn S10 for each day of the week
Reply:I think if you see anything that resembles porosity as you are welding you should stop and grind it out and do the area over.You will see this more and more when going over a weld AREA that did fail..Maybe you don't see it on top of the weld but inside is a problem..If the part was to be inspected 3 ways to hell then it would FAIL right off the bat....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Did you put the flat on the tungsten or was it pointed?I would bet that a x-ray would find that tip somewhere....lol.Semper FiJesus may have been a Carpenter, but his dad was a Millwright" A grinder and a can of paint, will make a welder what he aint' "I've done so much, with so little, for so long, that now I can do anything with nothing!
Reply:Yep definately if anything suspicious happens, start over!  as for the tip, i put the flat on it, it wasn't perfectly perpendicular as you can see but it works.Millermatic 252Lincoln 175 plusTA 185tswTA 161stlhypertherm pmax 45Victor torchHenrob torchAn S10 for each day of the week
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterHey snowbuddy..This is what I am refering to..If it has not happened to you yet well thats all well and good..It DOES INDEED happen with TIG...Next time it does happen I will post pics..Do not argue with me.You seem to find some sort of fault with everything I post..That's OK..We all need to vent I guess..You need lots of real world welding not all this classroom stuff.Stuff that is filthy..oiley..been welded totally wrong that YOU need to fix/repair without someone "Telling" you what to do..You just wait until you get something to repair that is not all brand new and shiney..30 years experience will teach you more that any classroom will.This is a perfect example of what the OP was refering to but I did not take any pics of the contamination crap I had to deal with..http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=59579Until it got to clean metal all it did was bubble and spit crap everywhere..I could have just left it as is after welding but that would have been WRONG and it would have come back to get repaired again in 1 HR....zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by dbl612mr. zap , what the hell do you want respect? you answer peoples questions readily willing to share your knowledge and experience. you post pictures of excellent work and then you expect people to believe what you are saying ! you expect a lot! LOL. thanks for your input.
Reply:Originally Posted by LawsonWeldingLLCYou bastards.....
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88No reason you would need to grind it out if you don't touch out.  Zap, I'll take that bet.
Reply:As we continue..Pic 1.. Re touch the top of the weld..Pic 2.. Welding of journal complete..So in conclusion yes there are times where even if you do not "Touch Out" porosity can happen at any time and if you are not careful things like this get REJECTED.Why did this happen?No clue.Brand new argon tank with 15 mins use..No wind..Clean area and filler..No dipping the tungsten or touching filler to the tungsten either.Any ideas?Lets say I just went over the weld and made it pretty without grinding out the area in question..After machining it would have just come right back to me to do over..You can't let stuff like this just go out the door..That's BAD BUSINESS plain and simple.So leaving it alone as long as it looks good is not the proper way to do anything and you should know this by now..Where is my 10$ ?...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:FWIW Zap, I suspect there must have been something that boiled to the surface of the journal as you went over it. Surface prep was good, but something else bubbled up from beneath is all I can think of.Thanks much for posting this example. I am teaching myself the TIG process and this stuff is very helpful.PapaLincoln Idealarc 250 (circa 1962)Lincoln Weldpak 155 w/Mig KitLincoln Squarewave TIG 175
Reply:Originally Posted by papaharley03FWIW Zap, I suspect there must have been something that boiled to the surface of the journal as you went over it. Surface prep was good, but something else bubbled up from beneath is all I can think of.Thanks much for posting this example. I am teaching myself the TIG process and this stuff is very helpful.Papa
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterHey snowbuddy..
Reply:Geee that's nice.You can stop with the chest beating now..You have it all over me as far as ladders and hanging goes however..I won't put myself in those situations because chiropractors are not cheap..You do your thing and I will do mine..I'll have to do the 300 amp thing again just for old times sake..And by the way where do I mention arc length? anywhere in this post?I can't seem to find it....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.This just confirms that ya need to keep your eye on the puddle to catch things, obviously the journal was showing it on surface of weld. As far as arc length problem, I was not talking about normal arc lengths but rather when tue tungsten shoild have dipped but the arc force pushed puddle back. If you play with that you will notice that sometimes it seems to bubble the puddle, this is where porosity can happen. How often does that happen? Rarely. Lets say out of 10 times the tungsten dips maybe once you have this happen. I don't have problems with tungsten dipping but hey, it does happen and since I don't take things for granted I like to experiment. Everyone should toy with this and post some results. Just run a bead and go so close and slow into it and watch the puddle push away, I bet you will be able to cause some porosity from time to time.Millermatic 252Lincoln 175 plusTA 185tswTA 161stlhypertherm pmax 45Victor torchHenrob torchAn S10 for each day of the week
Reply:Your shaft appears to be small dia 3/4-1 in?  Possibly you are getting gas flow problems.  I do a lot of 1/2 and 3/8 dia 4130 tubing and this happens occasionally.  I surely can't say always the same situation however.  I do turn up gas flow or turn it down when it happens and go from there. Some times I try to duplicate on the weld table as most everything is very out of position.  You are really kinda dead when it happens on a shaft.  I'd grind it out and try turning the heat down but keeping the shaft warm.  Try to get even a small weld that is good. then go from there.