Advice for vertical stick?

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Hey all, this is my first post on this forum, but I have been lurking on here for about a month now.  Take it easy on me First off,  I'm in school for welding.  Yes, I know I can/should ask my instructor for help, and I have... but that is only one person.  He is also the type of instructor that just runs a bead, and says "do it like that."  I wanted to see if you all could please critique my weld and give me some pointers on what I'm doing wrong, because I am having a hell of a time with it right now.To start off, here is a pic of my root on a brand new coupon.  Running a Miller XMT 350 CC/CV at 95 amps in "stick" mode, 1/8" 7018 rod, straight stringer with no weave.  I will tell you now, it looks like ****:I have done better (well, a LOT better) vertical beads before, but the majority of them come out looking like that.  It seems like no matter what I do or change, it comes out the same.  I've tried doing a very slight weave, but I can't seem to do it very well on the root since it is so tight... they always come out either wide or in a pretty well pronounced "Z" pattern because my weaves end up being so large.I personally think I just can't hold it steady enough/keep my speed consistent enough to run a good bead... I've asked my instructor, and all he really tells me is to just "keep at it" without helping me figure out some ideas on what I could try differently.... so I was wondering if you all with your amazing welding skills would please critique my weld and maybe give me some pointers or ideas of what I can try.  Not gloating, but I'm best in class at flat and horizontal... I'm only "ok" with overhead, which makes me think that I am having trouble fighting gravity.  What do you think?  Any input (positive or negative, on topic) is appreciated. Last edited by KillaSammich; 09-30-2011 at 02:22 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by KillaSammichI personally think I just can't hold it steady enough/keep my speed consistent enough to run a good bead... I've asked my instructor, and all he really tells me is to just "keep at it" without helping me figure out some ideas on what I could try differently.... so I was wondering if you all with your amazing welding skills would please critique my weld and maybe give me some pointers or ideas of what I can try.  Not gloating, but I'm best in class at flat and horizontal... I'm only "ok" with overhead, which makes me think that I am having trouble fighting gravity.  What do you think?  Any input (positive or negative, on topic) is appreciated.
Reply:DSW - First off, I've read some of your other posts around the forum, and I wanted to thank you for all the help and input you provide.I just read through that post as well as http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...+stick+welding (looking at David R's pic, I didn't even know a stick weld could look that clean!).  I don't have a problem with my overlap.  I will say that I DO just keep going if I screw up my first bead, trying to cover it up with my 2nd and 3rd.  That was more because I was too lazy to find new metal to work with (our teacher reserves the flat plate for test coupons and special projects for the advance class... finding new metal to work with usually involves diving into the scrap metal dumpster and hoping you find some good useable metal that can be prepped and not look like ***... it doesn't help that I'm a perfectionist when it comes to prepping things like metal), and the few grinders we do have are almost always in use.  But I was just introduced to the amazing powers of the CAC, so that shouldn't be a problem anymore lol.  I can just cut the weld out and start over again.I will say that you are very right... It didn't hit me until I heard you say it.  I did so well in 1F and 2F because my movements were timed... I got so used to doing it, I didn't even realize it until now.  The other thing is that I do watch the arc, and not the puddle.  Reason for me is that it seems like every time I look away from the arc and where I was going, I would go off course.. I guess that's where the timing thing came in.  Instead of watching the pool, I just started timing it so I could focus on the arc and my path.As for the weave - this is what drives me nuts... even on here, I read that a slight weave is recommended to avoid undercut... but it seems like when I try to weave, too much heat builds up and the pool starts to overflow.  Either that, or my weaves come out so spaced apart (because I increase my travel speed to avoid overheating) that it looks horrible.  As I move from side to side, I pause at the toe to allow the crater to fill.... but it seems that by the time the crater fills, the pool overflows before I move to the next pause point.  Again, thats where the huge spacing comes in... I end up spacing the weaves apart to try and keep the pool from overflowing (and I do this subconsciously, mind you...  I don't notice it until I chip the slag and see the weld).  I stopped doing the weave after realizing that I couldn't do it very well, which was weeks ago.  I will try again next class day and concentrate on it.And for position - The more I think about it, the more I realize I really could position it a lot better than I am... right now, I just kind of have to free hand it since the work piece is too far away to brace myself on anything... next day I'm in class, I will definitely look at what I can do better.Again, thank you for your input DWS.  I've already got all kinds of things running through my head now, which is exactly what I needed. Last edited by KillaSammich; 09-30-2011 at 03:20 AM.
Reply:And PS... any input on amperage?  I'm running 95amps but that seems too low, having a lot of issue with sticking when first striking my arc.  Usually welding on 1/4 inch plate, some times thinner.  I see 120-135 recommended on some of the threads... but that seems high to me.  Am I wrong in thinking that?
Reply:Glad I could help. As far as the weave, usually I just use that so that the guys can see the ends fill. It helps them understand what I mean by watching the puddle. It works best with mig where the puddle isn't obscured with the slag.One thing, when they do move on to weaves that I've noticed, guys want to move up too much.  It's a common error especially with vertical. My weaves are very tight, I move side to side very fast and up just a tiny bit with each pass. it's why I have to run a very exaggerated weave to get them to actually "see" what I'm doing. If not most are still looking at the left when I've already moved over to the right and started back across. You will find if you only advance vertical about an 1/8" or less each time, it gets much easier. I'm usually closer to a 1/16" up with each side to side motion as I go. I see many with vertical movements of more than 1/4" to 3/8" some times. Edit: As far as amps, I'd have to look as I don't run stick that much. As contrary as it seems more heat can often work better than less. You don't have to wait as long to fill, so you can move faster if that makes sense. I usually go with what the instructor suggests that the students use and only make tiny adjustments based on what I see. For myself I usually start with the middle suggested settings and adjust from there based on how it's welding.Last edited by DSW; 09-30-2011 at 03:38 AM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by KillaSammich...... Running a Miller XMT 350 CC/CV at 95 amps in "stick" mode, 1/8" 7018 rod, straight stringer with no weave.
Reply:From the photos I can see a couple of issues with your technique which are all common beginer mistakes.You would be better running the first pass with a 3/32" electrode (easier to get good root fusion and less metal deposit makes it easier to control), but if your instructor has told you to use a 1/8" then I'm sure he has his reasons.Apart from what DSW has already mentioned, the main problem is that you're moving your hand and arm wrong, you started off ok for about 1" at the bottom of the pic but then you let the rod point upwards too much (you bent your wrist back instead of moving your hand up), also, you seem to be manipulating the rod with your wrist instead of  moving your hand across from side to side.Also, what you can see when you pause at the sides is most likely the flux dripping down not the weld material, and you could also do with turning the amps up by about 10 (depending on the thickness of the material).Hope this helps!Edit; I've just re-read your posts, you're instructor wants you to use a 1/8 E7018 electrode to weld a root run on 1/4" plate and thinner? He's certainly making life hard for you, use a 3/32" electrode on about 70/80a if he'll let you.Last edited by Baila La Pinza; 09-30-2011 at 05:03 AM.Reason: more info
Reply:all the answers lie above..95 is a little too cold..rod angle is important, pointing up only 5 degree s or so..that requires your hand and arm to move up, changing wrist angle is wrong..i brace my left hip..learn to watch the puddle move to the electrode..
Reply:what Baila said about flux,  Try running a horizontal fillet with 7018 go slow and deposit a lot of metal.   then look at the slag.   there will be a huge deposit of slag on the flat side of the weld.   chip a bit off and the profile of the slag will look like a stringer bead in the flat position because the slag really moves fast with gravity heh..Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Wow, I've already learned so much from just the few responses you all have posted, thank you.  It would be really nice if I could get my instructor to stand there and watch me run a bead for once second, he would have caught all the things I just now realized I'm doing wrong or not as smart as I should.@DSW - I definitely have the moving up to early problem, that is very apparent in a lot of my welds.  But like I said, that was because I feared overheating so much.  I will try putting the heat back up to 115ish (instructors personal recommendation is 113) and go my normal speed instead of slowing down so much on the weave.  So the pattern you are saying to use is a up, over, up, over... or a zig zag?  Zig zag is what I have used in the past, but it never came out looking good.  I think it's because I'm moving up so quickly at such low amperage.@tanglediver - I thought so as well, I guess I was just so afraid of overheating I thought that anything past 100 was too high.  As I said above, I will try turning it back up.  I do start in the flat position for my warm up when I first get into class and go from there, I never thought to incline it and work my angle up.  I will try that.  And practice is something I get a lot of lol.... right now, I'm burning through at least 50 rods, if not more, every class.@Baila La Pinza - Yeah, he says that using the 3/32" is taking the "easy route."  We will probably be able to use it later in class when we start V-groove welding, but for now he tells us to stick with the 1/8".  I know I could do a lot better with the 3/32" rod (which I have used in the past), but even then it is still just so frustrating that I can't even make it look half decent with the 1/8".  He also went and hid the 3/32" 7018 rods somewhere   As for my movements, I will say that I am just all over the place.  I am so fixated on running the bead straight, that my arm/wrist/hand just kind of goes all over the place trying to keep my angle right (which never ends up being right anyway  ).  More than anything, as you said as well, I'm manipulating the rod with my wrist, but I thought that is what you were supposed to do.  As I said above in an earlier post, i will try to brace up better, and I will avoid moving my wrist as much as well (I'll break out the damn wrist plate from my bowling bag if I have to dammit, lol).@weldbead - I try to stay within 5-10 degrees, but sometimes I get so focused on running the bead that my arms freeze up and my wrist slowly tilts up more and more until I finally look down and realize im at like 45 degrees   i will brace up better and definitely look at the pool more closely.@southpaw - you and Baila La Pinza might have something there... I knew from the beginning that I couldn't clearly see the difference between the flux and molten metal in the pool (I can sometimes, but not always... but as I said above, its probably because I'm not paying as much attention as I should).  What I'm seeing pour out of the pool may just be the flux... but that is not always the case.  There are times where I will see the pool overflow, and when I chip off the flux, there is a nice big metal drip down the bead.Again, thanks for all the input guys.  I can't wait to get back into class on Monday to try all these things out.
Reply:Try to run a little bit hotter. I'm running mine at 105A or so. You'll have to move a little faster to stay in front of your puddle. But you'll end up with a better bead. On Verts I run a small weave to help control the weld.  Try to run a couple like this and do a brake test to see if your getting good root penetration. And your teacher not being able to provide you with good metal is just wrong. Your paying for a class to learn.
Reply:Nothing like learning to run vert with 7018! an as alot of have said itll click eventually just takes time and practice. I personally dont run anything less than 125 amps, and no more than 130 amps on my 1/8" 7018. But for what your doing 125 amps would be perfect once you learn to control the heat. Fast across the middle and pause on the sides, short arc length. Youll find running hotter makes a much smoother weld, less cold lap, and less chance of slag inclusions. I run 95amps on my 3/32" 7018 on one of my pipe tests, heres a few pictures first one of my completed fill pass just before capping, and the second is 9018-B3 before capping, youll notice the second is a larger weave due to it having a tig root, you just have to learn to move! haha good luck friend. Attached ImagesLast edited by Pressure_Welder; 09-30-2011 at 12:47 PM.
Reply:To steady yourself you can hook your leg and hip to a stool.  If you have a good instructor he does not let you sit down.  I use the stool much like a bar rail resting one foot on the cross member and my hip against the seat.   Seeing the puddle is really important.  I get students to look from the side as I run vertical.  They should notice that the arc is above the puddle and the molten metal drops down under the tip of the electrode to land in the puddle.  Too many people keep trying to locate the arc on the puddle rather than above so that the metal drops onto the shelf you have created.     You will regularly hit these brick walls then all of a sudden it becomes obvious.  Always use the instructor and other students as resources.  You obviously have your head on straight asking several sources including here.  In the end you will develop your own style and realize that everyone else just doesn't know how to do it right like you do.  Ha Ha :')
Reply:Hey, just thought I would give another point of view on this. I too am a welding student and just thought I would give my input. All the posts above have very good info, I would personally recommend around 105-110 amps. Keep your arc length as tight as possible and make very small circles and keep on the leading edge of the puddle. As for staying straight you'll get that with more practice, and if you can see the line in the between the plates follow it. If you want to do a weave I would use a Z weave again with a very tight arc length and hold the toes until you see them fill out. As for vertical progression you shouldn't have to think about it too much if you stay on the leading edge it should stay very tightly spaced, and if everything is done right the slag will flow down the center and start to pop off by itself.
Reply:Originally Posted by HeineHey, just thought I would give another point of view on this. I too am a welding student and just thought I would give my input. All the posts above have very good info, I would personally recommend around 105-110 amps. Keep your arc length as tight as possible and make very small circles and keep on the leading edge of the puddle. As for staying straight you'll get that with more practice, and if you can see the line in the between the plates follow it. If you want to do a weave I would use a Z weave again with a very tight arc length and hold the toes until you see them fill out. As for vertical progression you shouldn't have to think about it too much if you stay on the leading edge it should stay very tightly spaced, and if everything is done right the slag will flow down the center and start to pop off by itself.
Reply:I could quote many books that I have, but most say the same thing in one way or another.Current: Know the amperage range for the type/size of the electrode. Another factor is the thickness and the joint type of the material to be welded. Also there is the weld position that comes into play. I keep the same amps for Flat and Overhead, but normally use 15% less for vertical. Then there is Millers site that says to use 15% less for overhead, go figure.Arc Length: Will vary with each electrode and application, normally it's the same as the diameter of the electrode.If I maintain dia. of electrode for vertical, I turn down the amps. If I slightly close this gap, I can use the same amps that I use for flat.Rod Angle: Flat; horizontal and overhead, normally drag by pointing the back of the rod in direction of travel 5 to 15 degrees. Vertical: tilt the back of electrode down 0 to 15 degrees, but I bounce around these degrees depending on weld puddle.Manipulation: (learn to drag first) Different rod types have a allowable amout of movement. 6010's work best with a whip & pause motion while 7018's like to stay within the weld pool.Travel Speed: Will determine the width; height and contour of the weld. You will want a nice and even weld profile. I like to carry a puddle that's twice the diameter of the electrode throughout the weld. In a single stringer, the required speed may change to obtain the same profile.example, While welding, the base metal may not be of consistant quality and the arc force my blow a deeper spot. I will slow my travel down until this area is filled. Once the weld reaches the normal profile, I will then return to my original travel speed.There are several good books out there that will give you good pointers also.However, you will not learn to weld from reading. Take the pointers given by people; web sites and books with a grain of salt. Try "several" things and see what does best for the given weld situation.Nothing beats Hood Time and trying different things, but if you don't see your weld pool, you are waisting you time.Last edited by skelley521; 10-01-2011 at 09:46 AM.Semper FiJesus may have been a Carpenter, but his dad was a Millwright" A grinder and a can of paint, will make a welder what he aint' "I've done so much, with so little, for so long, that now I can do anything with nothing!
Reply:+1 on being able to see the puddle. My verts were a disaster until I had that revelation of what the puddle actually was. for 1/8 7018, my recommendation is 118 amps. A tricky start, but easier to control once it gets going, and I still get good fusion.Weldanpower 225 G7Ironworkers Local #24
Reply:yeah man i run my 1/8 inch 7018 at 120 amps    just watch ur puddle and stay consistant    your bead isnt as bad as you say it is   you just need more arc time and you'll get it,   remember to keep a tight arc and stay consistant and it will all fall into placeAaron Olsonmiller dynasty 200dx
Reply:I cant see my puddle well in vert or overhead. For vertical, instructor had me turn down to 80A, DC+ on a Lincoln IdealArc 250 on 1/4" plate 7018 1/8".What he showed me is to run a straight stringer holding a close arc with minimal backhand angle (as has been said here). This is vertical up, just beads on flat plate, just to clarify.The key is to move just fast enough where about 1/16" arc surrounds the front of the rod. Too fast and the arc doesnt protrude in front of the rod. Too slow gives me the sagging mess I was getting.This may be a way over simplified beginner technique, but I'm making decent beads and becoming more relaxed and at home or in the zone. I find this is part of the learning curve and allows me to start seeing or understanding what I am seeing better as the most basic attribute starts to become more automatic or comfortable. I find bracing / leaning or steadying the body is an absolute must as well.Last edited by jtcnj; 11-06-2011 at 06:04 AM.Lincoln AC/DC 225/125 and WP17. 75A AC is for pipe thawing!HH 140 - new addtion 9/2012.I didn't agree, but hoped for Hope and Change.I got change for myself and my family: for the worse.This is the reality of: Barackalypse Now. Again.
Reply:its odd that you use 1/4" for welding stick verticle and overhead we use 3/8" but i am in canada. and have a pretty good college for welding. actually my uncle is the instructor and hes has one of the best 5g pipe welds i have ever seen. remember to watch your sides fill out and dont go too fast. its def a reflex you will get as for temp i do my fill on 3g at around 110-120 with 1/8" but thats when im doing open roots and totally depends on machine. and if your in the u.s please tell me if you do your hot pass in open root with 6010 or 7018 because here in bc we do it with 6010 but in alberta they do it with 7018. i just think its wierd they do it with 7018 when 6010 has more dig and is a way sweeter rod to run. i love welding im a third generation as well as the 5th welder in my fam, i just need to get my alberta b presure ticket so i can take the 8 thousand dollar downhand course and make some mad skrilla.Last edited by kootenayweld420; 11-06-2011 at 07:22 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by kootenayweld420... so i can take the 8 thousand dollar downhand course...
Reply:One more thing,  if you have or can borrow an adjustable shade hood,  try different shade.  you may find that a darker or lighter shade helps you see the puddle better.  You just may see things in a whole new lightTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:I would think you want to be around 120A for 7018 1/8 vertical. There are plenty of good tips here so try them all out and see what works for you. Try to weave no more than twice the thickness of your rod.IW Local 580 NY, NY