verticlal up!!!!!!!!!!!

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i've been goin to my evening welding class at teh votech for 2 weeks now.  tonight we had to weld a piece of 2x2x1/4 share tubing to a 6x3x3/8 plate.  2 vertical passes up passes, one overhaed, one flat.  i did real well on my flat and overhead, but the vertical up was killing me.  the bead was a combination of sagging out of the joint or completely blowing the joint out.  the instructor called the sagging "bag". any suggestions would be welcomed.  1/8 7018 @110 amps DC.  thanks
Reply:There's been a ton of recent posts on Vertical up. My guess is you are not seeing the puddle well and probably watching the arc not the puddle. If you can't see the puddle and react to it, chances are high you won't ever do well with vertical. It's one of those "Ah ha!" moments when you see what I'm talking about. Suddenly it will all make sense.Usually students that try to run "timing" patterns rather than watching the puddle have the issues you have. You aren't holding the sides long enough and traveling across the center fast enough. It's easier with mig where you don't have the slag to try and separate between it and the puddle. To demo Vertical up with mig I usually tell the students to watch vert carefully as I run a very exaggerated weave. I hold at the end of each side to side run until the puddle catches up to the arc, and then as soon as it does, I'm moving back across to the other side with the puddle "chasing" after the arc again. I use the super wide weave, so they can see the puddle "chase" the arc across the plate. When I do the actual run, my side to side moments are so small and my speed is so fast that most can't pickup the puddle/arc changes until they learn to "see" the puddle.I'd suggest you run a bunch of flat beads paying very close attention to whats actually going on "around" the arc. Don't watch the shinny light, look at the puddle and the slag. With stick, you will need to be able to tell exactly what is slag, and what is molten puddle. It's not that easy for many including myself some times. As soon as you see what I'm talking about your vertical up beads will improve tremendously usually.Edit: A few recent vertical threads...http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=62443http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=61066http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=60871Last edited by DSW; 11-11-2011 at 10:32 PM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:getting comfortable was the first issue i was having and actually seeing the puddle was the second.  i was concentrating very hard on watching the puddle and not the arc.  i wasn't running any weave at all, just trying to get a nice vertical stringer.  do i need a small weave to accomplish a proper bead?  would the proper position be off to one side of the rod to see the puddle better?  i check oiut the links.  thanks
Reply:I find most have new students have difficulty running vertical up stringers with zero movement. It's not really a weave, but a slight side to side motion that lets you make sure you get each side of a fillet tied in 100%. I do the weave simply because with my normal weld, the motions are so small the students can't pick up what I'm doing unless I exagerate it. Doing a perfectly straight stringer means you have to get your rod angle perfect and watch both sides fill at the same time.90% of the time I run straight stringers with almost zero movement. Any movement is maybe 1/32" side to side total. Most students simply can't see what I'm doing well enough to pick up that tiny movement. If they swing say 1/16" to say an 1/8" on either side of center, they usually can get the sides tied in well and not have the center sag. Once they get the idea down, I have them start making the motions smaller and smaller. Usually at this point they understand what I'm seeing and can quickly start to run straight stringers.Picts of your welds would help to point out errors, but many times it's someone watching you weld that most easily picks up errors in what you are doing wrong. That's what your instructor ( or another student/helper who's already picked this up)is there for..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:definantly some good advice from everyone,  i usually run my vertical at 120 amps       try bumping the heat up a little and learn to watch that puddle and i think youll do a lot better.Aaron Olsonmiller dynasty 200dx
Reply:i checked out teh links.  good info.  i may try the little wiggle from side to side (micro weave?) at my next class. i was trying to keep teh electrode absolutely still and it wasn;t working.  i'll try a little motion next time and see what happens.  thanks