Removing 11ga Steel Tubing from Concrete?

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Hey Guys,  I didnt know where else to post this...  A few weeks ago, a gentlemen called me wanting new Gaurd / Hand Rails.  He wanted me to make new Rails, with the same style and look of the old ones.  The old Rail Post were rotted out.  So I simply used a grinder with a cutting wheel and cut the post flush with the concrete slab.  Now the Rails are done.  I am going back tomorrow to remove the Slugs (Post) from the concrete.  Im assuming they are 3"- 4" in the concrete. (1"X1" 11ga post)  I was planning on using a 1/2" Masonry bit and drilling a series of holes around the Post and using a pair of Channel Locks and wiggling them out?  Is there a easier or faster way to remove these post?  I cut them flush with the concrete (Not my brightest idea) There is 7 total post.Any help or advice will be greatly appreciated.Thanks Don.Some Blue , Some Red & Some GreyProverbs 16:2-3.2 "All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans."
Reply:core drill around them
Reply:core drill around them
Reply:Originally Posted by mrmikeyDitto, if you drill holes around the outside of the imbedded post I'd be careful that you don't break away the edge.What about base plates anchored  over the cut off posts and weld the new to them. If you go that route make sure you fill the  hole so water doesn't get in there and freeze....Mike
Reply:"1"X1" 11ga post..."  Could you pound a 3/4" pin down inside and use that as an anchor to tack on a small flange and then the upright tubing?  There is an old-time concoction called "rust cement" that will stop things up real tight.  Once rust expands, it's snug and is as oxidized as it gets."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:The Post that are anchored into the slab right now are 40+ years old.  There paper thin and rotted.  When I got there the one side of the existing rail was on the ground.  The post were so rotted, the railing fell over on its own weight.Some Blue , Some Red & Some GreyProverbs 16:2-3.2 "All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans."
Reply:Can you weld a flange(with holes predrilled) on the new railings and use anchor bolts? Is there a tool rental near you that you can rent a core drill from?
Reply:This is a rush job.  I wasnt scheduled to do this install til this coming Friday,  but the Home owner asked me if I sould have it done for the 4th of July.  So I moved my schedule around and I have tomorrow and wednesday to get this done.  If I cant remove the existing Post from the concrete, Im gonna fill them with Hydro-Static cement and go the Base Plate route.  Its not my typical style, but it might come to that.Thanks for your help guys.Some Blue , Some Red & Some GreyProverbs 16:2-3.2 "All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans."
Reply:can you drive a chisel between the cement and steel and bend one side in? then you just fold each side in little by little and pull it out.
Reply:Originally Posted by superweldercan you drive a chisel between the cement and steel and bend one side in? then you just fold each side in little by little and pull it out.
Reply:You could weld a smaller piece inside the tubing and insert it into the old tubing along with some expoxy.
Reply:Rent a core drill, it's reasonably cheap and you will see how easy it is and want one. Bring your shop vac for cleanup. Don not drill deeper than 2 1/2" -3" without checking on your progress. Drill one hole, remove the junk, and check your progress.It's a bitch if you drill through. use a piece of moistened kitchen sponge if you get a hole that goes through and the hole won't hold water, so the grout won't leak out.Just my  opinion, not from a book, just from the road.Howes Welding Inc.www.howesweldinginc.com
Reply:OK, pound a 7/8"' pin down there, even better.  My point is that the rust and whatnot can serve as a grout to fasten the new pin to the stair.  It would be more understandable if you studied the techniques of the folks around the turn of the century (1900 as opposed to 2000)."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:In a pinch where I couldn't damage the existing crete by drilling outside the old post, I've taken a sawzall and cut the tube wall from the inside. The trick is to cut as deep as possible, but not crash the blade in the bottom of the hole. I'll usually take the saw and try to extend the blade as far as possible before starting, then insert it in the hole and see how much clearance I have to work with. Often I'll use a "shim" of plywood or 2x material between the crete and the foot of the saw to try and cut down how far I have to hold the saw.Note: you'll waste the blade as soon as it goes thru and hits the crete, not to mention if you crash the blade, so bring plenty of spares.Once thru, you can usually take a chisel and fold the old tube inside to remove. If I've got a bunch to do, I'll use the chipping gun with the chisel. I've also split the tube with the chisel if I can drill a relief hole just outside the old pipe like you are thinking about doing.My 1st choice is still core drilling as others have suggested. I'd simply rent one myself. They aren't that expensive usually. Go ahead and buy the bit if you can afford it. Most places make their money on wear on the bits they rent. Often you can buy 3 or more bits, for what they charge in "rental" for the wear..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I would fill the holes and use base plates on the rails, too.  It would be quicker than trying to line up with original holes.  I  would not drill out the remainder of the tubing.I have done the tubing insert idea (leightrepairs idea) with plates on stubs.  However, epoxy is expensive and your holes and insert need to close fitting to minimize material use.  You also need to move quickly to not waste mixing tips and material.How does the client expect you to  do it?I have seen old rails set where hot lead was  poured for anchoring, beware before you start drilling, could be frustrating.Last edited by tapwelder; 07-01-2012 at 06:05 PM.Reason: no changes made
Reply:I would recommend base plates also. Every railing I have seen imbedded in the concrete has rusted out or started to rust through. Base plates let you seal your tube so that it cannot rust from the inside. If the owner doesn't keep it painted and it rusts through from the outside its his problem. I would fill the old tubes up with cement or caulk so that they cannot fill with water and freeze. I built some railings with 2x2x11 gauge tube and left one end open at the top until I could finish them a year later. It filled with water and froze and bulged out the tubing, Square corners with a good bulge on all sides. Drained water out and made the rest of the railing this past week or so.
Reply:Originally Posted by mwshawBase plates let you seal your tube so that it cannot rust from the inside.
Reply:Core drill or do as you originally suggested, drill a series of small holes (1/4 inch dia is usually big enough but not too big) around the post remains.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:[QUOTE=DieselDon16;1320681]Hey Guys,    I cut them flush with the concrete (Not my brightest idea) There is 7 total post.It was wise to cut them flush, you eliminated a trip hazard.  However, I would have filled them that day and installed the new ones when I came back.  Or if core drilling, then I would have left the originals in place until the new were complete and ready for installation (long day).
Reply:Well today I gave her hell.  There were a total of 8 post to remove.  To my surprise, about 1/2" below the concrete the Railing Post was encased with concrete inside a 2 1/4" pipe.  It was a nightmare.  I rented the Core drill with a 3" bit.  I hooked the water hose up, and had it on the slowest setting.  I literally began drilling not even a 1/8" and 3 of 5 teeth on the bit broke off.  Now the drill was under its own weight, I wasnt doing anything squirelly or anything stupid.  So I rented the drill at 10:30am and brought it back at 11:02 am ( I was working right up the road) After I explained what happened to the owner of the store, he agreed he would "Eat" the bit.  But he was going to charge me for the full day rental.  We went back and forth...  ( I stayed professional, never raised my voice or cursed) His arguement was well you rented it, so pay for it.  My arguement is, it never worked properly, I lost a days work because "His" drill bit was faulty.  and frankly it was a waste of time.  Well, I payed for the days rental,  literally drove across the street to my bank, and Voided and disputed the transaction.  If he wants to take it further, I will have papers served, and I will take him to court.  Its not about the money, Its a Moral, or , Character issue.  I rented it from him, had it for a total of 32 minutes, the bit broke within 1 minute of drilling, and He charges me for a full days rental?  Come On?Some Blue , Some Red & Some GreyProverbs 16:2-3.2 "All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans."
Reply:I'd have charged you for the bit.You'd better undo that dispute, or it's just going to get worse. Rental places tend to have insurance, and insurance companies tend to have lawyers.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:Originally Posted by DieselDon16I like that idea.  Base plates.  In all honesty, Im 22 years old.  I have only been running my own Welding business for about a year.  I dont have a Core Drill or bit.  Its definitely on the list of things to get.  I just dont have the $600.00+ to spend on it right now.
Reply:I understand your frustration as well but I'd have charged you for the bitt also.....Mike
Reply:No, he was in the wrong.  that bit was used for 1 minute, not even 1/8" of concrete was cut.  the blade was defective or improperly used before I got it.  I didn't get this far in life by giving in and backing down.Some Blue , Some Red & Some GreyProverbs 16:2-3.2 "All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans."
Reply:I'd go at it with an air hammer. Wouldn't take long at all.. Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2Miller: 200dx, Bobcat 225, Passport, Powermax 45, Milwaukee: Dry Saw, MagDrill, grindersI had a contract to rent a properly working core drill and bit.  Not a contract to rent a defective bit.Some Blue , Some Red & Some GreyProverbs 16:2-3.2 "All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans."
Reply:Similar happened to me once not too long ago.Rented core drill with bit.  Bit came brand new in a plastic packet.  Never saw the brand before ( looked cheap ).Cut about 10mm deep and had almost no teeth left.  Rang rental company and they sent out new bit via courier.Different, quality brand bit.  Finished the job and returned the drill and used bit.
Reply:Did they offer you a different bit to try?Wet core drills work great, I honestly don't know how you sheared any "teeth" off, the face of them is almost flat.  A dry core drill on the other hand, I've sheared lots of teeth off and ruined lots of bits, usually when I hit rebar.  A wet core will drill anything and not look back.I wouldn't give up on them from one bad experience, the bit might of been defective or cracked from the last job.  Maybe nobody noticed....
Reply:Go to court, they might ask if you x-rayed before you drilled.  You lose. More time lost and have to pay for a bit too.  I could see charging for partial days rental.  The drill wasn't defective.
Reply:Originally Posted by DieselDon16Well today I gave her hell.  There were a total of 8 post to remove.  To my surprise, about 1/2" below the concrete the Railing Post was encased with concrete inside a 2 1/4" pipe.  It was a nightmare.  I rented the Core drill with a 3" bit.  I hooked the water hose up, and had it on the slowest setting.  I literally began drilling not even a 1/8" and 3 of 5 teeth on the bit broke off.  Now the drill was under its own weight, I wasnt doing anything squirelly or anything stupid.  So I rented the drill at 10:30am and brought it back at 11:02 am ( I was working right up the road) After I explained what happened to the owner of the store, he agreed he would "Eat" the bit.  But he was going to charge me for the full day rental.  We went back and forth...  ( I stayed professional, never raised my voice or cursed) His arguement was well you rented it, so pay for it.  My arguement is, it never worked properly, I lost a days work because "His" drill bit was faulty.  and frankly it was a waste of time.  Well, I payed for the days rental,  literally drove across the street to my bank, and Voided and disputed the transaction.  If he wants to take it further, I will have papers served, and I will take him to court.  Its not about the money, Its a Moral, or , Character issue.  I rented it from him, had it for a total of 32 minutes, the bit broke within 1 minute of drilling, and He charges me for a full days rental?  Come On?
Reply:doub_t is right. you got lucky they didn't charge you for the bit like they were supposed to. i would be pissed if i rented something only to have it work for an hour but i would try to work something out with them. since whats done is done, keep up updated on what happens.
Reply:I'd air hammer it out. A good air chisel would make very short work of a few inches of concrete, if nothing more than to collapse the pipe..Miller: 200dx, Bobcat 225, Passport, Powermax 45, Milwaukee: Dry Saw, MagDrill, grinders
Reply:Sounds like a defective bit to me. Hell, some of our bits only have a couple teeth left and still cut. Maybe a made in china bit .    As far as rental, buddy's neighbor was installing that narrow lawn edging. The guy next door saw what he was using for making the groove in the dirt and liked it. He went to rental joint asking for the HAND HELD TRENCHER ! Yep, a chain saw the neighbor rented.
Reply:I have never rented a core drill that worked properly.  Every one that rented before me abused it.  Just because they had the tool, made them an expert on how to use it or since it was not theirs, they did not care.  If used right, they fantastic.  Since I bought my first one, I have never core drilled another hole with a rotor hammer.  In core bits, you get what you pay for.  The rental places don't buy the good ones because the people don't know to drill with them.  Worse yet they sometimes have their old bits re tipped.  Like the core bits, you get what you pay for when you re-tip.   I only buy my bits from a commercial store.I have had to drill out 4" pipe sleeves in concrete that were welded to 1/2" thick steel base plate on the bottom.  I got a bit made for high steel contact and drilled the holes faster than my normal 3" bit drills normally.  The right bit, a good drill and all the water the bit needs and it will drill through anything.  Drilled 30 holes and hardly put any ware on the bit.  That being said, we have some of the hardest gravel in the world in Missouri.  It's called Meramec Gravel.  I have worn out a bit in 8 holes in this type of concrete with high rebar content.  That's why we ask what kind of concrete when pricing drilling.  Lime stone or Meramec gravel.  Yes, they make bits just for this concrete.Never been a fan of base plates on hand rails.  I use them from time to time.  Just not as strong as core drilled.  They might be OK in a dry climate, but with salt being used in the winter, they rust more.No one likes to have the problem you had with the rental store.  It's one of the reason you buy your tools when you can and learn who not to rent or buy from.  Good chance you will wind up in court or a lien on your customers house.  After you contested the bill, you paid the bill, agreeing  to it. Then you stopped payment.  Right or wrong, the paperwork says your wrong, if not a crime.  Just how much was a day's rental??  I would have at least hung on to the drill for the day.  What would you do if your customer stopped payment on your check?  One last thought came to me.  Did you rent a diamond core drill or a rotor hammer with a carbide tipped core drill? Diamond core drill bits have segments and rotor hammer core drills have teeth.  What you describe is what happens when you use a rotor hammer core bit and it hits steel.
Reply:Diamond core drill.I actually brought my father to the job yesterday.  He's been in the Construction Field for 39 years, 20 years in the New Jersey Carpenters Union as a General Foreman, and 19 years owning and running 2 construction companies. So I figured let a guy who has done stuff like this before, try it...  Well we pull up and he says to me, "Go in the bed of the truck, and get that bucket of used oil,"  So I get it,  he pours used motor oil over the remaining 4 pipes and post.  He told me to wait 15 min and watch this Sh!t,  He picked up his E-Wing hammer smacked each post and pipe 1 good time, and grabbed them with a pair of channel locks and wiggled them right out.  No sweat.Some Blue , Some Red & Some GreyProverbs 16:2-3.2 "All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans."
Reply:Originally Posted by DieselDon16 Well we pull up and he says to me, "Go in the bed of the truck, and get that bucket of used oil,"  So I get it,  he pours used motor oil over the remaining 4 pipes and post.  He told me to wait 15 min and watch this Sh!t,  He picked up his E-Wing hammer smacked each post and pipe 1 good time, and grabbed them with a pair of channel locks and wiggled them right out.  No sweat.
Reply:Well it was 10W-30 used oil.  He broke the creme off the top of the concrete with a masonry chisel, poured a healthy amount of oil over the chipped area, waited 15-20 min, and he took his E-Wing 28oz waffle head hammer and hit the steel post that was encased in a pipe and concrete, (1-2 good whacks) and waited.  then used a pair of channel locks and wiggles them right out.Im assuming the whacks with the hammer caused hairline cracks to let the oil seep into.Some Blue , Some Red & Some GreyProverbs 16:2-3.2 "All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans."
Reply:If you did that most places I've worked, you'd be replacing the whole walk because of oil stains. "Used" oil usually is almost impossible to remove from bare concrete. Having an oil stain at the base of every post would pretty much pi$$ off almost all the customers I've worked for..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Acetone, took it right off.  the concrete was painted.  thought about that before he did it.Some Blue , Some Red & Some GreyProverbs 16:2-3.2 "All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans."
Reply:In all honesty, Im 22 years old.  I have only been running my own Welding business for about a year.  I dont have a Core Drill or bit.  Its definitely on the list of things to get.  I just dont have the $600.00+ to spend on it right now.
Reply:If you cancelled the check, the rental company will likely sik their check gaurantee company after you. Besides, what if you have to rent from them again? I personally liked the idea of the plates and fill the holes with grout or portland or whatever wich BTW is good to know. Damage to the crete can be costly and easy to damage when drilling near the edge.  I did like the used oil and Eastwing method but it woulda been done already with the plate method plus no rental company headache. I dont meen to offend but as already stated, you agreed to their terms when you handed over the check.Last edited by Insaneride; 07-05-2012 at 12:45 AM.Reason: edge
Reply:thats awesome you got the job done and cleaned up the oil , but i must say your dead wrong on the stop payment , and even if your not wrong you signed off on the tools and agreed to the terms and conditions, if the tool was faulty ask for another , youre lucky you didnt have to replace the bit i think they were working with you. anytime ive seen a rental damaged it had to be paid for. the other thing is you dont have all the tools what if you need a rental for a job that comes up next week? its those things you need to think about. and i hate to say this but man @22 you just started.    im only a few years older than you and what i learn year to year is insane ive been doing this for 8 years already and if you told me id continue to learn i would have never guessed it.on a lighter note it would have been cool to see pics , i do alot of railings and have literally never ever had an issue coring out old posts with a core drill. and since i bought a core drill i have never ever used my hilti again except my smaller one for anchors. good luck in the future...
Reply:I never have used a core drill. I have seen the results and they are usually about 4-6 inches in diameter about 12 inch deep.  My concern with drilling anything is to stay away from the edge at least as far away as the diameter of the hole being drilled. Ive seen that limit xceeded on steel/iron  using 7018 . Never trusted it especially on cantilever's but it happens and will again.l
Reply:Well, the guy who owns the rental store called me last night.  He said "Son,  I apploagize for the way I acted monday, with the Core drill"...  He thanked me for staying professional, and not getting upset or cursing.  He said, "That took balls to walk across the street, and put a hold on the drill charge" and we talked for a few minutes...  He said I accepted the hold and cancelled the charges to your account.  You wont be charged for the Core Drill rental or the Bit.  So in good faith, I told him to charge me for half a days rental, $35.00.  He did, and next time Im up that way, Im gonna stop in and shake the mans hand.  Thats how its done,  Im not gonna take something, if I feel I was treated unfairly...  "You gotta stand for something, or you'll fall for anything" There are sheep in this world, and there are Herders...Some Blue , Some Red & Some GreyProverbs 16:2-3.2 "All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans."
Reply:Originally Posted by DieselDon16Well, the guy who owns the rental store called me last night.  He said "Son,  I apploagize for the way I acted monday, with the Core drill"...  He thanked me for staying professional, and not getting upset or cursing.  He said, "That took balls to walk across the street, and put a hold on the drill charge" and we talked for a few minutes...  He said I accepted the hold and cancelled the charges to your account.  You wont be charged for the Core Drill rental or the Bit.  So in good faith, I told him to charge me for half a days rental, $35.00.  He did, and next time Im up that way, Im gonna stop in and shake the mans hand.  Thats how its done,  Im not gonna take something, if I feel I was treated unfairly...  "You gotta stand for something, or you'll fall for anything" There are sheep in this world, and there are Herders...
Reply:Originally Posted by InsanerideI never have used a core drill. I have seen the results and they are usually about 4-6 inches in diameter about 12 inch deep.  My concern with drilling anything is to stay away from the edge at least as far away as the diameter of the hole being drilled. Ive seen that limit xceeded on steel/iron  using 7018 . Never trusted it especially on cantilever's but it happens and will again.l
Reply:Originally Posted by DieselDon16Well, the guy who owns the rental store called me last night.  He said "Son,  I apploagize for the way I acted monday, with the Core drill"...  He thanked me for staying professional, and not getting upset or cursing.  He said, "That took balls to walk across the street, and put a hold on the drill charge" and we talked for a few minutes...  He said I accepted the hold and cancelled the charges to your account.  You wont be charged for the Core Drill rental or the Bit.  So in good faith, I told him to charge me for half a days rental, $35.00.  He did, and next time Im up that way, Im gonna stop in and shake the mans hand.  Thats how its done,  Im not gonna take something, if I feel I was treated unfairly...  "You gotta stand for something, or you'll fall for anything" There are sheep in this world, and there are Herders...
Reply:Say mattyg, my post was vague and I assumed 7018 was used for most iron work because of the xtra 10,000 pounds per square inch over the 60xx where the limits are pushed.  What my point was supposed to mean was; as a rule of thumb, I never drill anything closer to the edge than the diameter of the drill bit being used. I have seen that rule pushed in steel but never for concrete.Ive never used a core drill but a 3 inch bit used 1/2 inch from the edge seems like pushing the limits of the concrete strength especially new concrete. Or does it?  What are your recomendations on drilling close to the edge? I assume the OP's stair rail was at the edge otherwise he wouldnt need the gaurd rail.
Reply:Believe what you want, but he did call and appolagize.Some Blue , Some Red & Some GreyProverbs 16:2-3.2 "All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans."
Reply:what's so hard about believing a store owner called to apologize to a customer that put a stop on a check;  even after said store owner had already done him a favor.   happens all the time. lol.