sheet metal- welding new rocker panels on truck - stick or Mig?

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Hi folks,I have never welded thin stuff before, and have to weld new rocker panels on my 12 year old, rusty truck.I have a Miller XR feeder and gun, and am just waiting for my new (used) XMT 304 to arrive.  When it does, I could buy solid wire for it, but would then have to get gas for mild steel. ( I really bought the setup to do aluminum, and was only going to get a bottle of argon).Or, I could buy some flux cored wire for this, and other small jobs.Or, I could just try stick welding it, as I have another AC/DC stick machine I can use.I would appreciate some feedback on which of these options sounds best, or doable, and what wire size, or rod size you would recommend!Not looking for professional results, just have to pass inspection, and have it looks decent with some bondo and paint overtop.Thanks in advance.
Reply:Given what you have, IMO the best process for thin sheet steel would be MIG.You might get by fine with Argon instead of C25, perhaps not as smooth but some folks here can comment on that.If all you had was a stick welder, then you could use that - best with 1/16 or 5/64 inch diameter 6013 electrode negative.Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:You'll want to use .023 wire and 75/25 most likely. I know a few guys who can make this work with small stick electrodes, but I'm not good enough with stick to make this work myself. Both stick and Fc wire really burns too hot for most sheet metal work and then you still have all that clean up to do.If you are not running alum at the same time you want to fix the truck, just swap the cylinder out for 100% argon later. I switch up gasses all the time with no issues at my place. another option would just be to rent a small cylinder for the length of time it takes to do the job. My LWS will spot me a small cylinder for almost a week at no charge since I have an account. I've done this on occasion when I might need an extra cylinder for a job over the weekend, but my cylinder isn't low enough to warrant a swap on Friday. He'll simply give me the extra one, and I'll return it the following week, or drop off my empty. Another good reason to deal with the LWS on a regular basis..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I did my floor pans... make sure to reallllllllly get the rust. Keep the heat as low as you can, my issue every step of the way was burn through.  Sometimes things connected very well, others, it just burned through.  Most of my weld's were cold because I just couldn't get things to work out properly.  :-/  But some of the positions I was in were just terrible.  So I guess that didn't help my learning process either.Big chances are you will end up grinding a lot of welds down.  I recommend a flap disk of a medium grade to help take them down quicker, then finish them off with something lighter like a DA.  Also another thing that worked well was the 60-80 grit roloc disks on a air die grinder.  Just be careful not to get too crazy or you will blow away your metal quickly.I was lucky with the floor pans because I didn't have to grind the welds down if I didn't want to..Also, I would primer the area with spray and also brush primer(I used a high build) in the spots you weld (ESPECIALLY if there is any tiny holes left over) then bondo. Good luck!  and post pics!JoeMiller 140 Autoset (2010)Miller Syncrowave 250 (1996)
Reply:Hey Northeaster,Forget flux-core, SMAW(stick), & TIG..... not the best processes for that paper-thin auto sheetmetal. I do 4-6 classic car resto's a year & for all the inner panels, floorpans, fenderwells, trunk panels, & kick pads, I use .023/ER70S-6/C25 religiously. CLEAN METAL!!!!!!!!  I like to do a 1/2" overlap to strengthen the seam. You just gotta tack every inch & alternate locations & use a backing(I use several lengths of 1.5" X 1/8" alum angle) & some flat 1.5"W X 1/8" alum that I can bend for radiused parts. Works quite well. After tacking, a quick cooling with a wet towel to reduce warping. With all the outer panels, ie; fenders, quarter pnls, hood, roof, I use .030 silicone bronze wire w/100%Ar & utilizing the same procedure.....tack...cool...repeat, alternating location. SilBrz is much better for eliminating the rusting of the weld beads. So, go ahead & get your Argon for your incoming XMT  since you indicate you are doing outside panels. Oh......BTW, you can also do the inner panels with SilBrz also if you want to stay with only one wire. Attached is the link where I get mine.Dennyhttp://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/we...t/SB03002.htmlComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Thanks for all of the great advice.  I hope to pick up the new to me welder in a week or two- it is a 5 hour drive away, or have it shipped. Should have some free time to get the gas and set it up after that.  \will talk to LWS to see about small or loaner bottle.  No doubt I will also want to do other mild steel projects, and may decide to keep both gasses on hand.Need to have truck inspected at end of December, so have to get crackin.Thanks again.
Reply:I am a journeyman autobody mechanic and do several box panels/quarter splices a week.So, your options?What you may wish to consider is using one of the structural adhesives on the market, they give you a considerable amount of work time.You would clean up the panel the way you normally would and areas where their are spot welds, center punch, drill them out with a spot weld drill bit and grind the nibs flush dolly metal back straoght, and use a few spot welds in key places, if you need to splice a panel in, then use a mig and shrink any high spots with shrinking disc.Any rust grind out.This process is good if you have a inverted weld in the wheel well.You could also buy a resistance spot welder off ebay, they can be had for about $200-$250, you would do the same procedure and replace spot welds in same number as originals and any splices use mig.The resistance welder does the best job of saving time and reproducing a factory appearance, but you cannot always reach in or weld the tabs together the way the factory does so splices are needed. Also stay away from long leads on your mig because you should be using 0.24 wire and that is a long run for that wire.I am using a Miller 212 autoset in the shop I am working for now and it is a difficult machine to work with so I am changing the lead over to 6 or 7 foot, new drive rollers and liner.You want a mig with alot of options for heat settngs.Best
Reply:Originally Posted by yorkiepapHey Northeaster,Forget flux-core, SMAW(stick), & TIG..... not the best processes for that paper-thin auto sheetmetal. I do 4-6 classic car resto's a year & for all the inner panels, floorpans, fenderwells, trunk panels, & kick pads, I use .023/ER70S-6/C25 religiously. CLEAN METAL!!!!!!!!  I like to do a 1/2" overlap to strengthen the seam. You just gotta tack every inch & alternate locations & use a backing(I use several lengths of 1.5" X 1/8" alum angle) & some flat 1.5"W X 1/8" alum that I can bend for radiused parts. Works quite well. After tacking, a quick cooling with a wet towel to reduce warping. With all the outer panels, ie; fenders, quarter pnls, hood, roof, I use .030 silicone bronze wire w/100%Ar & utilizing the same procedure.....tack...cool...repeat, alternating location. SilBrz is much better for eliminating the rusting of the weld beads. So, go ahead & get your Argon for your incoming XMT  since you indicate you are doing outside panels. Oh......BTW, you can also do the inner panels with SilBrz also if you want to stay with only one wire. Attached is the link where I get mine.Dennyhttp://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/we...t/SB03002.html
Reply:Originally Posted by yorkiepapHey Northeaster,Forget flux-core, SMAW(stick), & TIG..... not the best processes for that paper-thin auto sheetmetal. I do 4-6 classic car resto's a year & for all the inner panels, floorpans, fenderwells, trunk panels, & kick pads, I use .023/ER70S-6/C25 religiously. CLEAN METAL!!!!!!!!  I like to do a 1/2" overlap to strengthen the seam. You just gotta tack every inch & alternate locations & use a backing(I use several lengths of 1.5" X 1/8" alum angle) & some flat 1.5"W X 1/8" alum that I can bend for radiused parts. Works quite well. After tacking, a quick cooling with a wet towel to reduce warping. With all the outer panels, ie; fenders, quarter pnls, hood, roof, I use .030 silicone bronze wire w/100%Ar & utilizing the same procedure.....tack...cool...repeat, alternating location. SilBrz is much better for eliminating the rusting of the weld beads. So, go ahead & get your Argon for your incoming XMT  since you indicate you are doing outside panels. Oh......BTW, you can also do the inner panels with SilBrz also if you want to stay with only one wire. Attached is the link where I get mine.Dennyhttp://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/we...t/SB03002.html
Reply:"With all the outer panels, ie; fenders, quarter pnls, hood, roof, I use .030 silicone bronze wire w/100%Ar & utilizing the same procedure.....tack...cool...repeat, alternating location. SilBrz is much better for eliminating the rusting of the weld beads. So, go ahead & get your Argon for your incoming XMT  since you indicate you are doing outside panels. Oh......BTW, you can also do the inner panels with SilBrz also if you want to stay with only one wire."Yorkiepap, you've peaked my interest as to SilBrz. Besides rust resistance, are there any other advantages; ei: less heat, warping, etc?  67rs/ss sheet metal replaced using the alternate tack method and ER70S-6 wire. I'm thinking SilBrz would come in handy the next time I need to build up the edge of a panel? Attached Images"Steel is weak. What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?"- James Earl Jonesmiller 225 w/ 3035spoolmate, Lincoln sq wv 275 w/radiator, hypertherm 600 plasma cutter, other stuff
Reply:Hey guys,Glad to hear some of you find favor with my suggested techniques. Doing auto/truck panels can be a real nightmare. You have to follow a train of thought & implement a procedure & your successes will yield 500% improvements.1)  Get some .030 SiBrz & 100%Ar & definitely have .023 ER70S-6 w/C25 on hand always.2)  Use some residual(scrap) material the SAME thickness as the panels, or cutoff pieces of the panels.3)  CLEAN!!!!!! Welding/brazing....no matter what material......CLEAN!!!!4)  Setup:  Be sure to have/make some backing pieces, 1/8" works well, & I like alum. as I can bend it a bit & it acts as a good heat sink to eliminate burnthru. Get your setup pieces laid out, cleaned metal, make a 1/2" overlap, clamp the alum. backing to the seam. Your setup pieces should be at least 8"L.....12"L= better. This way you can see the effect of alternating your beads & cooling effect on the metal. Since auto sheetmetal panel replacement pieces can vary as to manufacturer......  24ga=.025  thru 16ga=.062, you will find certain areas of the panels will be a tad thicker, especially if they are areas where bolting may be necessary. Your seams will dictate the heat level needed to get a good bond. Start out at approx. 40A(heat #1 or 2) depending on your MIG power output. 220vac units will generally have a higher tap output than a 110vac units, so select heat setting accordingly. WF would generally be in the wf range of 3-4 to start. Again, this is what the setup process will do to help you insure your unit is at optimum settings for good beads & will be so much easier when you get started. Go ahead.... start.....look at what your results are. Hot....cold....burnthru....pinholes.... adjustments needed.... alter settings & start again. You will find that "sweet" spot..... I guarantee it. Keep a wet towel handy.5)  Now you are ready. Get your panel in place, CLEAN SEAMS!!!!!!, clamp, be sure the backing piece is nice & tight against the seam...... START!!!!!  Be sure of your fitting....double check everything & check again. Adjust as necessary. Believe me....it's not hard if you don't make it hard. Oh, BTW, I use a Miller 130 for all my resto work, & if heavier frame/structural welds are needed, I use my spoolgun setup(250A unit). You only need to use 15cfh if indoors & 18-20cfh if outdoors with a breeze less than 5mph. If it is windier than that.....call it a day & do something else.Note:  I have never had a burnthru once I have the setup optimized with either 70S-6 or SilBrz.  Your practice & learning the technique may take a bit of time.....don't worry....it will come. Don't be in a hurry....patience will pay off with your practice. I have done resto's on cars that, when finished, were valued at $60K+. These fellows DEMAND absolute first class work....... & they have no issue paying the first class price..... I know. The value of their recommendations is priceless.** "PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE....INHERITED BY NONE....USED BY FEW."Ok... if you need any more suggestions, just ask. Hope this helps. You will like the improved results & ease to do it.DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:i'm also noticeing that a recessesd tip (up to 1/4") into the nozzle cup gives better gas sheilding and a softer arc (way less penetration/blowthrew) because the wires farther from the contact tip yet gives a better gas sheilding pocket at the same time , specially with pure argon......also , some of those euros are leaving a tiny slight gap in-between body panels to fill  wen using the silicon bronze being a cold weld and all , some are'nt...hmm  -.-a        thermal arc 252i  -  millermatic 350P -   miller XMT, cp300ts, 30a 22a feeders, buttload of other millers, handfull of lincolns, couple of esabs  -   Hypertherm 1250 G3
Reply:Northeaster,Been following several of your threads, and, quite frankly, it's been a cluster from the beginning.First, you buy an aluminum push pull setup because you got a "good deal".  Then you don't have a clue how to power it.  So you go out and buy an XMT 304.  OK, good move.Then we find you want to weld thin body panels...First off, you've got the wrong equipment for the task at hand.The XMT 304 with a simple wirefeeder (such as a 22A), with .023 drive rolls, and an M10 gun (or say a Q200 from Bernard) would be a better option.Even better, and for a whole lot less than the price of a feeder for the XMT, you could have purchased a 140-150A Hobart/Miller mig welder and been set.Sounds like someone needs to take a basic welding class and learn what equipment is designed for what task, rather than just going out and buying a bunch of welding equipment only to find that you don't have the tools to do the job.Good luck on having this truck ready for inspection by the end of the month.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Hey guys,Looks like I will do some challenging regarding techniques so as you don't CREATE issues.To Woi2ld:  Have you done extensive replacement of auto panels? Especially the outer panels?  Your suggestions are out in left field.First, your MIG gun tip needs to have a 1/8" stickout.....NOT recessed! You will see the results when trying to do inside corners.Second, the stickout allows you to maintain a much better control of arc distance & your view of the weld seam. That arc distance is what allows you to maintain a precise heat factor, thus arc consistency. All the parameters of an optimum weld are for the operator to maintain exact distance, travel speed, & gun angle & that is much easier with a tip stickout as the welds are short arc.Next, your input regarding "those euros leaving a tiny slight gap in-between body panels" is pure bunk. Let the euros do as they please & live with the results of a crappy job. The best results for minimally warped panels are a lapped seam.Last.... Your statement: "using the silicon bronze being a cold weld and all" is pure diatribe. First, it's not a "weld".....it's a braze. Second, brazing is NOT COLD!!!!!!!  I would suggest you do some homework to get a comprehension of welding as "fusion" of metal, & brazing as a joining of separate parts via a capillary action of adding a melted filler to bind.Please refrain from posting helpful/suggestive tips to those who look to get an excellent result if you have no experience welding/brazing thin sheetmetal such as automotive panels. You only confuse proper techniques/applications/processes.DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Yorkie and others - thanks again for taking the tome to give valuable advice!SundownIII - I have read many of your replies to other peoples posts, and I do know you call em as you see em.  And, I do feel you can back your thoughts up with experience, so I don't have a problem taking criticism, or advice, as long as it is constructive.Since you took the time to reply with your thoughts, I will take the time to explain.#1 Have never taken welding classes.  Wanted to this fall, but my job takes me away from home every 2nd week, so I would miss every 2nd week's night classes, at the closest community college, which is an hour away.  #2 I My hobby welding experience, althought not extensive does include being shown the basics on mig and stick a feww years ago by my brother (ticketed) and father-in-law.  (He has owned, operated and repaired heavy equipmnet for 30 years). I have praticed quite a few hours running basic beads before building a couple of trailers. Used mig for a sailboat cradle I built and stick for the my 32ft sailboat trailer and 5x10 utility trailer.#3 Never welded alumium, but want to start with small projects (sailboat has alot of aluminum parts) and then build a small alumimum boat.That is why I bought the push pull gun and eventually the XMT304.  I did not buy it to do my truck panels, but since I will have it ready in a couple of weeks, I can use it, or the AC/DC stick welder I normally use.  Yes, I did ask alot of questions re: which power source to buy, as I was mostly looking to get into alumium, but was considering different options, including ability to do steel - stick and mig, portability - have 2 shops I will want to work in, etc.re: passing inspection, I don't think it will be an issue, as my brother is the mechanic (25 years experience) who I normally get to inspect it.  That being said, I still can't have gaping holes in the rocker panels, so I will fix it, and won't be too concerned if it doesn't look perfect. Just needs to be solid and black. Attached ImagesLast edited by Northeaster; 12-04-2011 at 06:25 PM.
Reply:First, YES my mig gun tip needs to be recessed, its a differnt machine than yours...i'll change tips for inside cornersSecond , you've basically said wat i was trying to say , except like some kind of scholar , like you said 'arc distance allows for differnt heat factors' and I KNOW recessed is typically for spray arc...but plz dont make me spend an hour searching for the info where some very respected welders hav mentioned recessed on thin stuff.Next , one of the many automotive paint shops ive workd at had a body tech from ferarri , sorry i refer to those far easterners sometimes as euros....but  crappy ?....lmao Last....brazing is hundreds of degrees COLDER , while ordinary welding will penetrate to the back of the weld through melting through the two sheets of steel , brazing DOESN'T melt the parent metal ....SO it could POSSIBLY NEED A GAP to get to the rear of the joint denny..calm down ,i hav a yorky to.        thermal arc 252i  -  millermatic 350P -   miller XMT, cp300ts, 30a 22a feeders, buttload of other millers, handfull of lincolns, couple of esabs  -   Hypertherm 1250 G3
Reply:Hey woi2ld,I'm quite calm..... too old to be any other way.  Ok... I see you aren't mad because of my response. Nothing was meant to be demeaning towards you in any way. My response was simply to challenge your statements I quoted as being incorrect as they were. If you re-read your response, #12, think about what you wrote regarding what you said & why I disputed them. I only corrected what you wrote..... was I wrong?I am not a scholar.....I use the English language to convey information in a clear, concise manner, so that I can easily be understood. I don't mince words, nor do I hesitate to admit an error & stand corrected when necessary. When responding to a thread/post, re-read your response several times before posting to be sure what you are saying is exact.....exactly what you want to say, otherwise, a reader will take your words as written to be valid when they are not & may challenge you as I did.My challenge regarding "gap" fitting, was simply to indicate that, generally, most who are doing auto/truck repairs will get a much better & stronger seam with an overlap. Since SilBrz wire MIG is the same as technique as S-6 steel MIG wire, the only difference is the application where steel fuses, & SilBrz is "brazing" with a filler that melts on both surfaces to complete the bond/joint. The average hobby auto repair person will have poor results having a gap between panels & will not get the strength of a lap. I presume those doing these repairs are seeking a decent lasting time span, otherwise, why would one want to waste so much time, material, & $$$$ in the first place. Now, if it is a "quickie", just to get rid of a vehicle, I agree not to waste time & talent.Hey woi2ld, I can see you have common sense, do attempt to convey helpful advice, & I hope I helped you understand how to improve your projection of your thoughts into correct meaning of what you want to say. Besides, I see you also have superb taste......Yorkies are the best.DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Hey Yorkie do you have any pics of your mig'd sili/bronze repairs??  Are you doing this fusion as a overlap or butt joint??. I have a decent amount of experience with automotive resto's but I usually mig or oxy-weld replacement panels and these are all ways butt welded unless it was originally lap welded.Lincoln pro mig 180Lincoln Square Wave Tig 300/wp 20/home built water cooler Victor, Purox, Harris, O/A welding/cutting setupsVintage Craftsman drill pressVintage Craftsman/Atlas 12"x 36'' lathe7''x 12'' w/c band saw Everlast 140 st
Reply:Here is a pic of a hand made floor pan in my old Pontiac... Attached ImagesLincoln pro mig 180Lincoln Square Wave Tig 300/wp 20/home built water cooler Victor, Purox, Harris, O/A welding/cutting setupsVintage Craftsman drill pressVintage Craftsman/Atlas 12"x 36'' lathe7''x 12'' w/c band saw Everlast 140 st
Reply:okay , dummy here.  But wouldnt these SB  'laps' be kinda like a 'fillet' with no fusion between the parent metals.  Um ,  a butt joint SB welded, excuse me , brazed with no gap between the parent metals? , imagine if the bodyman went to grind that flush . just scratchin my head a little bit , sorry for the tard inquiries.        thermal arc 252i  -  millermatic 350P -   miller XMT, cp300ts, 30a 22a feeders, buttload of other millers, handfull of lincolns, couple of esabs  -   Hypertherm 1250 G3
Reply:Originally Posted by woi2ldi'm also noticeing that a recessesd tip (up to 1/4") into the nozzle cup gives better gas sheilding and a softer arc (way less penetration/blowthrew) because the wires farther from the contact tip yet gives a better gas sheilding pocket at the same time
Reply:Hey guys,Ok....  I'm gonna attempt to "paint a portrait" with different variables so you can "see" the differences when doing auto panels. Probably be a bit long, although will allow you to determine what you want to do.First, understand there are repairs, replacements, & restorations......each is a "level" of your project as to what you want as a finished result. A "repair" is simply fixing a small area that may need to have some metal replaced. It is this level of your fix that is a necessity and not has be absolutely perfect......unless it is a new/newer vehicle you want to look as new. If so, then you want to engage the "replacement" technique with taking the xtra time & effort. The "restoration" level is much more entailed with a finished result that mirrors "factory new". These are time-consuming, very planned out, & every detail taken into consideration as to the customers' satisfaction. They are the most expensive & deservedly so.Next..... if it is just inner panel replacements(floor/trunk/kick pads/fender wells), I use strictly 70S-6/.023/C25 with my Miller130 & all seams are 1/2" lap seams. I do not use SilBrz on any of the inner panels because I want the strength of a "welded" seam. These replacements are for all the levels of the restoration as they are generally sealed with an undercoating/rustproofing(outside) & sealer/carpeting(inside) & are done by the customers' vendor to his satisfaction. My only concern is the install/welding of the panels. When I am finished, I ask the customer to examine "every" facet of the job to insure his complete satisfaction & do any "fixes" he deems necessary. If you do a good job on the first application, generally, there is no need to do any "fixes"..... that's why I emphasize setups.Ok..... now the outer panel parameters. To "repair" for a "good" job, or "good-enough" to sell it quickly, I do a 1/2" seam weld. I have a Vice-Grip w/6"L X 1/2"W steel "flats" welded to the jaw ends so I can do a quick "lip seam". This allows the new panel to sit flush with the existing panel & make "fill-in" quicker & better appearance. I tack them with SilBrz at 1" intervals alternating beads & cooled w/wet towel. The customer is responsible for the all the finish.....my job is simply to get the panels in place. I don't do body work!!!  Again, I verify with the customer if meets his satisfaction.Now..... "replacement" of outer panels will be determined by the customer as to the "level" he wants. If it is a classic, or an older vehicle the customer wants to look "great", & is planning to keep it for Sunday drives or a car show once in a while, the details are completely in place BEFORE I start so there is no misunderstanding. These replacement panels are "butt" brazed w/SilBrz.....no gap....no lap, & wet towel cooled. I apply 1/2" spacing per braze for strength. The finish of the seams are decided by the customer & I will offer suggestions for methods to achieve a nice smooth exterior. Remember.......THE PAINT SHOWS EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!! He has to understand that it is HIS responsibility to insure the panel surface finish......... my job is to simply attach them.Lastly the serious......"restoration".  All inner panels are seam & butt welded as to frame/structural locations of the original panels, 70S-6/.023/C25. The customer & I have established every parameter of the job. These inner panels are usually complete panels, some are factory NOS, some are replacement panel manufacturing companies. These are installed the same as the original factory panels.....quite nice & easy to do. Some minor fitting/trimming is to be expected, although minimal as far as time. The customer is responsible as to the surface(inside/outside) finish he wants & I have no concern over that.The outer body panels are "butt" welded, no gap....no lap. These are done carefully with backing to maintain a nice, tight butt, & again, SilBrz tacks spaced 1/2", alternating brazes, & cooled quickly. SilBrz really shines as warping is almost totally eliminated. When finished, another discussion with the customer to insure satisfaction. READY!!!!!!  These fellows take their "baby" to a local fellow who specializes in classic/show cars body finishing. I went to his shop to look at his absolutely flawless finishes. He does as my uncle did back in 1955 when I was learning welding........LEAD!!!!  He strips/cleans the seams, warms, brushes on flux, & has 1/2" sq. 24"L sticks of 100% pure lead & uses a cherry-red spatula to "spread" on the lead......just like peanut-butter. His helper uses a small rosebud just ahead of him to keep the seam hot. Unbelievable technique & NO WARPING!!! Price????? Don't ask......  Whew!.....big $$$$$$.  I saw a '57 T-Bird he just finished & was down to primer ready......not one wave....the lead was as smooth as glass.Anyway, I hope I have enlightened you all as to the extent of which you can get involved with these kinds of repairs/resto's. It all up to you.....just ask yourself what you want the finish to be......ok,  good,  great,  superb,  or flawless. To woi2ld:  There are (2) definitions of "stickout"..... TIP STICKOUT or WIRE STICKOUT. My referring to stickout was as posted.... TIP stickout. Now, I can understand your referring to a "recessed" TIP, & longer WIRE stickout to reduce heat, although it is so much easier & better with a 1/8" TIP stickout & shorter WIRE stickout. It allows you to vary heat if necessary, & also provides a much better/brighter view of the weld. I do take into consideration that some of the higher powered units(200A+) will not do well at lower heat setting & slower w/f, & thus would do better with a recessed TIP. That is why I do all my resto's with a Miller130.......it's a perfect unit to do these kinds or any sheetmetal jobs with simplicity & ease of use.Anyway guys, I hope you find these suggestions & my methods helpful to give you good results. Remember....it's not hard if you don't make it hard.DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:This is all quite entertaining...Mixing the old with the new...Good job Denny!...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Hey Zap,Thanks.... I try to make jobs easier & attempt to give suggestions that will render excellent results. I'm "old-school" & nothing irritates like half-a$$ed work. Since I've been doing resto's for over 30yrs, I find it quite easy, just like you do with your superb TIG applications you do. I try to make the newbies/youngsters understand that a dedicated practice session as much as possible will yield progress & satisfaction as does a setup session to get optimum results. You know my favorite question: "How bad do you want it?"DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Yorkie thank you for taking the time to explain that. Even though I am 30 I consider myself " old school", as I am constantly researching and learning how things were done back in the day. I was very fortunate at the age of 10 to have a well known "teacher"take me under his wing and not only teach me the techniques used in auto restoration but also the importance of a high quality repair. Right now I am really wanting to learn real metal shaping, using a stump,hammers,leather beater bag and dollies,when I feel I am ready I will move up to a E-wheel and planishing/power  hammer( hand made of course). Lead is also another art in itself, and also something I want to learn.... on top of welding, machining and blacksmithing.Lincoln pro mig 180Lincoln Square Wave Tig 300/wp 20/home built water cooler Victor, Purox, Harris, O/A welding/cutting setupsVintage Craftsman drill pressVintage Craftsman/Atlas 12"x 36'' lathe7''x 12'' w/c band saw Everlast 140 stOriginally Posted by yorkiepapTo woi2ld:  There are (2) definitions of "stickout"..... TIP STICKOUT or WIRE STICKOUT. My referring to stickout was as posted.... TIP stickout.
Reply:Good and bad points with both surely? Same as always - up to the individual. I always prefer mig welders but i am assured by others that for certain jobs stick welders are the way forward!
Reply:yorkie, thanks for info,found info on sibronze intereresting, been having some trouble with the Miller 212 w/.030/.035 rollers and 15 foot whip, and it was strongly suggested that panels be done entirely by adhesives to us by mgmt, and after a tete a tete, they are going to replace with .023 rollers which is not standard equipment in that machine, and new lead, liner 7' long, and consummables, to much burn through and warping near welds.So, will try silicon bronze at first opportunity on spot welds if we cannot get it right with e70s6 .023.The miller 212 has a tip extending out from the nozzle about 1/8th of an inch, is this normal or wear from prior uses wire brushing nozzle, also find that their is a really difficult time using weld through primers like welding dirty uncleaned welds even after cleaning weld area/hole with solvent, and wire is bird nesting, so what I have been doing is ditching weld through primer altogether. So sibr may be the ticket to solve this machines problems.I have a T/A 190 but don't want it in the bodyshop.
Reply:Hey pistolnoon,I am not in favor using any kind of primer, weld-thru or not. Your best results will be with clean/bare metal. SilBrz comes in .030 as the smallest dia. & your MIG tip is fine with a 1/8" protrusion, & will be the best setup IMO as that's how I have done all my resto's. Remember.... C25 w/70S-2 & 100%Ar w/SilBrz. Birdnesting can be an issue with .023 with 10'+ MIG cable assemblies & getting another cable to shorten, or shortening the one you have will generally solve that problem. Post your progress & the changes you implemented.DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:I do have a roll of .023 silicon bronze wire, but it is a few years old so may not currently be available. I believe it is Harris brand wire.I have ran .023 silicon bronze and steel in 10' guns (both Lincolns) with no feeding problems. Maybe you could try a different model gun, also check condition of drive rolls, wire guides, etc.JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:Originally Posted by yorkiepap it's not a "weld".....it's a braze.
Reply:Originally Posted by woi2ld'stickout' is misunderstood. What it really means is the distance from the mig welding tip (also called contact tip) to the arc. Not the distance from the nozzle to the arc.....a longer stickout will soften the arc which is a really good thing on  thin sheet metal like body panels. with that said , the protruding tip works fine allll day on 20 gauge    , but thinner.? wat about even 24 or 26 laugh. lets say youve got this certain mig dialed as low as you can go and allll youve got left is stickout to control the heat....do you see your misunderstanding in my drawing , amatuers wont see it