guidance on uphill vert stick

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I have finaly gotten off my backside and started practicing some uphill verticle stick.  My flat and horizonal stick welds are adequate most times but I almost never have to weld out of position.  If I ever want to pass a g6 I'll need  vert for sure.  Tried several kinds of rods. 7018-3/32, sheet metal 6013 - 1/16, 6011-3/32, regular 6013-3/32.   I am practicing on 2 inch square tube with a wall about .070 in.  (thats what I want to weld arround 360 degrees)     The 3/32 6013 running about 30-35 amp dc seems to be about the rite heat.  I can run a very short arc fairly slow progress with a little lateral weave.The inside is red hot but not going through. (it does go through at 40 amps..!)     Its not a really pretty bead -  kind of stands up a little more than I'd like.  (if it was a flat position I would have said it was too cold by the bead profile)   The problem seem to be that when I first strike the arc at the bottom - I am getting a little droopy rounded glob which hangs down.  Once I get up about 1/2 inch and get into the zone the bead behaves a little .......I think it is making the little glob from the first little bit being too cold rite after I start the arc.   If I could get rid of that glob I would be doing a lot better.  The glob looks like poop in a sock !   How do I stop that ??????I have only been trying this about 2 hours !  - but clearly I need a hint !Thanks ahead of time for your thoughts !Tim
Reply:Picts would help greatly.30-35 amps with 3/32" 6013 sounds way cold for that size rod. My info puts 6013 at about 75-90 amps DC. 30-35 amps sounds about right for 1/16" rod.It sound counter intuitive, but it's often easier to run vertical hotter rather than colder.I'm guessing a part of your issue is you haven't yet learned to read the puddle. I find this very typical of guys who suddenly have issues when they move to vertical. You can get by with a timing pattern doing flat and horizontal, but that almost never works well with vertical. If you can not read the weld puddle, you will not be able to react to whats going on. If you can read the puddle, when you run hotter, you simply move faster to compensate and slow down when needed.Run some flat beads and pay very close attention to the puddle. Make sure you can differentiate between the molten metal and the slag. Look "around" the arc and ignore it, concentrating on the puddle itself. Once you "see" this it will all make sense.From Lincolns info on rods... Attached ImagesLast edited by DSW; 12-23-2011 at 03:12 AM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:X2 on the pics... Either way, this is a vertical-up video that I made, I hope it helps you. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXKUGMYRe0o[/ame][Account Abandoned 8/8/16 Please Do Not Attempt Contact Or Expect A Reply]. See you on YouTube! -ChuckE2009
Reply:Great Video Lanse!  Thanks for doing that - it will help me!Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Lanse,Good attempt at a video but you are inconsistant in your technique. You just have to spend more time under the hood.
Reply:Not to bad! I have a request for your next 7018 vertical up video. I'd like to see you run the root pass with 1/8 7018, then a second pass over the top of the root with 5/32 7018, then cap it all off with 3/16th 7018. Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by LanseX2 on the pics... Either way, this is a vertical-up video that I made, I hope it helps you.
Reply:I have never welded with 6013 but if its anything like 6010 the technique is sooooo much different than running 7018 uphill... Might want to focus on one rod before attempting to master another...
Reply:Are the techniques really that much different from rod to rod?  Still improving all aspects myself!At any rate Lanse I appreciate the videos that you do!  Welding tricks and tips has some good videos and Jody does a great job explaining things!Last edited by houseoffire; 12-23-2011 at 04:33 PM.AEAD 200LE, Lincoln precision tig 185, Millermatic 251, Spectrum 625 extreme, Victor torch , Smithy 1220LTD. and  Do all C-4 band saw ,  Always adding.
Reply:Really??? Sigh...
Reply:Tonedef, would you mind elaborating.  Thanks.AEAD 200LE, Lincoln precision tig 185, Millermatic 251, Spectrum 625 extreme, Victor torch , Smithy 1220LTD. and  Do all C-4 band saw ,  Always adding.
Reply:I can't really put it into words and I have no video. I can tell you though that the difference is night and day... I weld a lot of 6010 downhill but I also know how to weld it uphill and that is what they teach u in school... I can tell u in the field time is money and a lot of people weld it downhill. I swirl my 6010 downhill in structural applications. Uphill I sort of do a triangle resting for a bit at each corner then moving up to the peak then side to side then peak. 7018 is a another story, I can also run it downhill although I, nor anyone else would recommend doing it properly. With 7018 you just move side to side resting until you notice penetration on each side... It's hard to explain.
Reply:Thanks DSW and others- I am sure you are hitting a lot of my problem as to not seeing the puddle - as opposed to the flux or the arc.   It seems liek I am not so distracted by the flux on flat because its not moving much.  But on vert- the flux is like a waterfall !   Also I think I need to practice on something thicker since I suck- not 1/16 that I was trying on the other nite.  I could pull that off ok(1/16) I think if I was pretty good at verticle - but I aint yet !I will try something like 1/8 or 3/16 open root butt- something where I will have some latitude for error till I can get on the rite track.   I could have posted a pic but i was ashamed for anyone to see such a disguesting mess of turkey crap !I will practice a couple of more days on thicker and THEN brave a picture !   I know I can do it- its just a new skill !I went to school for Tig but not for stick.  I think stick will always be the most difficult type of welding due to not being able to see the puddle directly.  If I have time to go back to school it will be for stick !Thanks.....  I'll try to do a pic in a day or twoThank You, Tim
Reply:When I run a 7018 vertical up I just run it like I would a flat stringer, thats the way I learned. If I need to make the weld a little bigger or if I need to make the crown a little flatter or if I have a gap i'll add a little wiggle to the rod, not quite a weave. The way I learned is that weaving with 7018 is a no-no, and I do know that some inspectors will fail you if you do a test and weave, it happened to my boss and another guy I work with, I guess you just run the risk of going over slag. Thats just my two cents. Do it however you want though and however you're comfortable.Give it a shot. Give the electrode an upward angle and just keep your angle and move a little faster than you would flat, run about 105-115 with 1/8 7018 and keep a nice tight arc. You have to pay a lot of attention to your angle though because when you loose the upward angle you'll loose control of the weld and you'll have ta tas hanging.I dont run enough 6013, I personally dont care for the rod or have the need to use the rod.I run 6010/11 vertical up in the same manner I run flat, Just with the rod an an upward angle.An old tip I learned from an old welder, and possibly the best I've ever had the honor of knowing: Think flat.Miller Dialarc 250'61 Lincoln SA 200 Red/Blue FaceHobart Handler 175Smith O/AIf you cant dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with B.S.!
Reply:If your taking a test, 6G schedule 40 6 inch what rod is used for the root and then the hot pass and then the cap?  Can you weave or must you use stringers?AEAD 200LE, Lincoln precision tig 185, Millermatic 251, Spectrum 625 extreme, Victor torch , Smithy 1220LTD. and  Do all C-4 band saw ,  Always adding.
Reply:Originally Posted by houseoffireIf your taking a test, 6G schedule 40 6 inch what rod is used for the root and then the hot pass and then the cap?  Can you weave or must you use stringers?
Reply:You CANNOT run 7018 uphill without a a little side to side. I have never heard of someone saying they run a vert just like a flat pass, lol...I am not a pro- pipe welder yet but root 6010, I have done hot pass with 6010 also, although I have seen people dot hot pass with 7018, cap 7018... I would use 3/32 7018 on sch.40 for cap and run three stringers. I have used 1/8 one bead cap also and a lot do in the field but I think its overkill for that sch...
Reply:For the root pass on a vertical up V-butt plate I pretty much just drag it. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:got any specs to go with the pics CEP?  amps, rod angle, machine,...?  thanks.
Reply:If you've never tried it, try running some 6013 uphill just for giggles. It will drive you crazy, but it can be done.
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick VGreat Video Lanse!  Thanks for doing that - it will help me!
Reply:Originally Posted by tonedefYou CANNOT run 7018 uphill without a a little side to side. I have never heard of someone saying they run a vert just like a flat pass, lol...I am not a pro- pipe welder yet but root 6010, I have done hot pass with 6010 also, although I have seen people dot hot pass with 7018, cap 7018... I would use 3/32 7018 on sch.40 for cap and run three stringers. I have used 1/8 one bead cap also and a lot do in the field but I think its overkill for that sch...
Reply:You can't tell me when you run a stringer uphill that you do not move the rod a little side to side.... The technique cannot be compared to a flat pass, that is why each orientation is taught differently. I think you are misleading people when you say running a 7018 vert is similar to running 7018 flat, sorry...
Reply:Originally Posted by tonedefYou can't tell me when you run a stringer uphill that you do not move the rod a little side to side.... The technique cannot be compared to a flat pass, that is why each orientation is taught differently. I think you are misleading people when you say running a 7018 vert is similar to running 7018 flat, sorry...
Reply:The heat matching makes sense but for me its all about the puddle and penetrating both sides. I am by all means not an expert and try to learn something new everyday. As I was saying its hard to put into words but there is almost always a little side to side, just a lot tighter with stringers. Best thing I was taught is to watch the puddle. I remember watching a rig welder in a Valero shop while I was still building tanks, he would tell me that he could drag the rod all over the place as long as he kept his puddle and you could swear the bead was going to look like **** but sure enough you would never guess it was the same weld... For me most applications I weld on, you would not be able to just "drag" the rod on an uphill vert without burning through.. For the guy who posted the pic... Trying doing that without a backing strip, which in most cases is not permitted.Your current is too low, and more importantly you're welding far too thin a material for vertical up. With .070" material you should be going vertical down, at least 60amps. 70 amps would be better with 3/32" 6013.6010/6011 are useful for vertical down stringer welds, due to their good penetration and thin, aggressive, fluid slag. having a thin fluid slag means it's less likely to get pinned under the leading edge when going vertical down, thus causing cold laps and slag inclusions.  6013 is a low-energy, low penetration rod,but if you're burning through on vertical down with 6010/6011,then switch to 6013. If you want to practice your vertical up I'd advise thick 1/4"-3/8" plate at least. 3/16" is the limit when it comes to stick welding vertical up.6010/6011 is useful for vertical-up, but that requires you to use the "whipping" technique most of the time. (note; you should only use this technique with 6010,6011,and 6012 rods.) Also you can use various weaves but I don't usually. Using a whipping motion with xx10 and xx11 celulosic rods improves the weld quality. This is because the cyclic freezing and remelting reduces the quantity of dissolved gases in the weld. Low-hydrogen basic rods e.g. 7018, dominate when it comes to vertical up on thick plate.Last edited by Joshfromsaltlake; 12-25-2011 at 05:14 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by HOBARTgot any specs to go with the pics CEP?  amps, rod angle, machine,...?  thanks.
Reply:A thing of beauty CEP ! Merry Christmas Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:We call that Scorpion King, nice!!!
Reply:CEP Thats georgious!! How does one run 7018 open root?[Account Abandoned 8/8/16 Please Do Not Attempt Contact Or Expect A Reply]. See you on YouTube! -ChuckE2009
Reply:Originally Posted by tonedefWe call that Scorpion King, nice!!!
Reply:Lanse,When you switch from side to side you are not holding it for an even count. For example you maybe holding it for a count of 2 on one side then a count of one or 1 1/2 on the other and seems never to be  consistent. Also you seem jittery when you pause on a side as if your trying to spread the puddle around. Last would be the travel speed when jumping from one side to another, your vertical bead widths show you are not consistent here either.I don't know if your using a count method to keep your speed and we seem to to start off that way but then it should switch to visual timing. When you first move to one side the arc will at first create a hole/divit then you pause there till it fills. Once it fills then that is when you then move to the otherside and repeat. Pay attention to the speed that you travel at from side to side, that is also part of the travel speed. Yes the center will take care of its self but the cross travel speed will give it its appearence. The odd thing about this is that you showed a previous vert and it looked better so maybe the camera got to you.
Reply:I blame the camera angle, I try to stay really consistent, at a 45 degree angle to the joint, and go back and fourth evenly, but it is a little harder to work with a camera right next to you, while trying not to bump it or block it's view, and having to really reach into the joint with your hands. Its different than regularly welding...Im aware that it looks like I "favor" one side more than the other, but I still say that those welds looked different to my while I was running them, than they do in the video footage, so Im gonna stick to camera angle. lol. Thanks for the feedback, hope you're having a good holiday [Account Abandoned 8/8/16 Please Do Not Attempt Contact Or Expect A Reply]. See you on YouTube! -ChuckE2009
Reply:Jay O could not have said it better, when I was in school they would teach us to count on each side and to not stop at any point in the middle. Move as quick as u can across the middle then count even numbers on each side, 123>123< depending on rod size and heat of course. Not everyone counts the same speed. I was also taught when you slowly move up going side to side, (weaving), you bring the rod back almost to the same spot you had it gradually moving up. There are a lot of factors involved with heat, rod thickness, rod angle, thickness of plate but practice this enough and one day it just comes to you. I am a learning variety myself and take just a little longer to pick things up. I am referring to 7018 btw... Keep it up!!!
Reply:Wow, I've never seen a 7018 root, let alone try. But that is sweet CEP!
Reply:Originally Posted by tonedefYou can't tell me when you run a stringer uphill that you do not move the rod a little side to side.... The technique cannot be compared to a flat pass, that is why each orientation is taught differently. I think you are misleading people when you say running a 7018 vert is similar to running 7018 flat, sorry...
Reply:Originally Posted by SR20steveWow, I've never seen a 7018 root, let alone try. But that is sweet CEP!
Reply:Originally Posted by weldin rod From high school all the way through trade school I was taught to run a vertical up stringer, no weave no wiggle no nothing.
Reply:Good work Lanse. I noticed some inconsistent pauses on the left side (probably due to camera obstructing view), and the weld actually looks better on the right once the slag is cleaned off. If I was welding with a camera in the way, I wouldn't dare publish it! ...probably look like a bead with ketchup on a plate full of fries... I can't imagine trying to weld with an obstruction in the way! Nice video, great resolution ! What setup did you use to shoot that?