Question for the rail and gate builders.

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I have been asked to quote on fabricating 120 feet of fence rail to match the existing rail in the photos.Top and bottom rail is 3 x 3 x 1/8 square tube. Pickets are 1 x 1 square tube. Posts are 4 X 4. Panels will be 10 feet long by 7 feet high. In the photo of the pickets, the fabricator only welded the back and fronts of the pickets. My thinking is that he may have been concerned about warpage from excess heat. If I do the same I worry about potential rust around the unwelded picket sides. The fence rails in the pictures appear powder coated and show no signs of rust around the unwelded sides of the pickets. Unfortunately, my powder coater is uninterested in doing the job as he says the size and weight of these panels is beyond his capability. So, they will have to be painted. What do you guys think; is there any good valid reason to leave the two sides of the pickets unwelded as in the photo? Attached Images
Reply:If you live where there are freeze/thaw cycles it's a good idea to leave weep holes so condensation will not puddle then split the tube when it freezes. This achieves that without having to break out the drill.That said, it sure does look way better with clean beads all the way around and a hole hidden on the bottom. Usually strength wise, done well, 2 sides is strong enough to meet most code/ safety requirements.Have you checked around for powder coat shops with bigger ovens? If you find a good one you wont regret it. I'm in podunkville :thumbup: and have a choice of 2 shops with up to 16' x 30' x 12' ovens. If you are within reasonable driving distance it's a whole lot easier than painting it yourself.Brian LeonardAppalachian Ironworks L.L.C.434 Long Branch Rd, Marshall, NC 28753828 649 9966828 702 [email protected]
Reply:Well, I've done some of this kind but not with square but with round tubing and pipe. Down here because of humidity and the heat we use steel pipe and tubing for fencing. I also do box stalls. Our weather goes from 110 plus down to 5 to 10 degrees F. Pretty extreme.I will tell you that doing the length you are talking about you are best to set up a jig and do it assembly line style.If you do that you will find it hard to weld the in between ballasters as the jig will be in the way. I believe this is what the previous welder did and would account for there not being welds there. Check out Yorkiepap's (Denny) postings on setting up for mass production, and jigging.Further I would question how water will get into them with other than condensation and given such a short length the temperature gradient wouldn't present much of a problem of condensation. Hence the lack of rust since the top is kept from getting water penetration due to the top rail.That's my two cents. If you are going to paint it look at some of the farm implement paints. They are used for equipment that stays out in very bad weather and gets treated to the harsest treatment. These paints stand up incredibly well.Good luck. And let us know how it works out.Glenn.Last edited by Stampeder; 09-16-2012 at 02:09 AM.Sign on East Texas payphone: Calls to God 40 cents......it's a local call...
Reply:Most panel seem to have uprights welded on only two sides.  Not sure why, but as stated above if the tube gets any water in it and it freezes it fill deform and break.two choices I can think of, I have seen a "weldable primer" meant to be welded through, although I don't remember seeing it for a while.  I did a project a while ago involving 500' of picket panels for a skate park, all pickets welded only on 2 sides, i have seen very little rust on it.  We painted them all with rustoleum 9800, urethane mastic.  Its very expensive, kind of like imron, but it seems to be as good as powdercoat to me. I use it on rental patio boats as well. It's about $120 a gallon though. Both those items get heavily abused, and they take very little touchup, so it ends up worth it to me in the long run.
Reply:Best to leave at least one edge open. What will happen if you weld them all the way around is that when it rains, the rain pools around the bottom. Where there are pin holes (yes there will be) the tubing (which is now cooling because of hte rain) will start to suck up the water. Eventually the hole will rust shut, and the water won't go out. Then when it freezes it will bulge the square tube to round and split it.
Reply:I can't imagine just a powder coat would inhibit rust in those unwelded joints. I don't think the powder would coat the end of the tubing.  I would think you would stand a better chance of prevent rust with paint,  with paint you could treat the joints individually.  I would weld all the way round if it were to be just powder coated.   Is that a  fence that may have been galvanized  then powder coated.
Reply:i weld around every joint , everytime, it makes a big difference in the long run. in new england we face all 4 seasons an unwelded seam is a place for rust to start. if your set up right there should be no concern of warpage unless your welding 16ga. tubing
Reply:It seems like water always gets in to the uprights, I don't know if it is pinholes in the welding because there are so many of them or condensation.  But when they freeze they create quite a problem.  So I leave the bottom welded on two sides. I don't seem to get to much rust staining although I would think I should.
Reply:I have done hundreds of railing repairs.  In my experience, I have never seen a deformed baluster that did not have a definite, distinct, obvious entry way for water.  Same with newell posts.I have done  a couple of repairs where you cut a baluster and the water drains for 20+ min.  Hence, the entry way for the water was in rail the several feet away.  It could be design issues or holes blown during welding.  Porous or incomplete or  over-grinding welds(poorly prepped) on top of a rail cause problems too.      Wicking up into the baluster theory seems extreme.    Most distortion occurs several inches from the weld, thus it would have to fill up quite a bit.  So, Unless it was sitting in lots of water at for a long time,  the water drain out as the puddle dried.  If it became plugged, how would more water enter.     When Walker mentions "pinholes" are they pinholes or blow holes.   Blow holes need not occur. Pinholes- Porous welds need not occur either.
Reply:Those fence sections are so plain I would think they can be bought "off the shelf" in standard lengths.  Can you fabricate better and still be competitive?Member, AWSLincoln ProMIG 140Lincoln AC TombstoneCraftsman Lathe 12 x 24 c1935Atlas MFC Horizontal MillCraftsman Commercial Lathe 12 x 36 c1970- - - I'll just keep on keepin' on.
Reply:Thanks for all the replies guys. I appreciate the opinions from all you experienced fence and rail builders. We don't get any real freeze thaw cycles in this area.  I think if I get this job, I will just weld all around the pickets and insist on a generous paint job around the welds. (I am a subcontractor, the contractor will be painting the panels  )-Dan
Reply:two reasons to not weld all the way around: speed  and warpage.  i usually only weld two sides of the top, but weld all the way around bottom.  nobody notices difference like that, you have to really be looking. i dont like using tubing as pickets though, it always rots through and to me just feels too light and chintzy, but 1" tubing is the way to go.