Running super hot, high wire speed, bb's out the a**.

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Is there a reason to run everything super hot with super high wire speed? At my job we are welding stuff that would normally call for 18-20 volts, 200-260 wire speed. Instead, everyone is running 28-30 volts, 410-460 wire speed. Is there a reason for this? When I turn it down, I get yapped at for "not enough penetration" i.e. not enough undercut, not a 3/8-1/2" weld size. Oh and lack of bb's everywhere. WTH? FYI, running C25 gas, ER70S-6 (.035), and Miller CP 302 machines.Big F**king HammerJumper cables & 2 marine batteriesJaws of life
Reply:Might be a production thing.  My son has to do the same thing where he's welding.  I assume it's to make the operator move faster with the welds, increasing production volume.Here's one of his welds.  I think he said it's for a piece on some farm equipment.Last edited by MarkBall2; 03-23-2014 at 09:45 AM.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Material?Your suggested settings would indicate pretty thin stuff (14ga.).MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:thats how it is where i work a semi trailer manufacturer aluminum and steel. they do it for speed so you dont have to keep adjusting the machine for thicknesses. pick up the speed for thinner stuff so you dont blow threw and slow down a bit for thicker stuff.  i do a quick whip and pause technique so i dig out for penetration then whip back to fill in so theres no undercut. it does leave alot of spatter but our labors scrape them off. is it the way i learned in welding school? no but aslong as im doing what the company deems quality and am getting a paycheck then im happy.   by the way im 25 yrs old from Pennsylvania making $18.30 hr which is the best pay in my area for non code certification welding.
Reply:I overheard a former student of my instructor come into the shop last week and tell of a job opening. I only heard part of it, but he said must be able to lay 12" of wire in 5 seconds!The instructor said he couldn't tell his students to do that.
Reply:That's only 144" of wire/minute and wouldn't be hard to do.A 12" bead in 5 seconds would be more of a challenge - even for aluminum MIG.  I'm pretty sure I couldn't do it.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Sounds to like me the meatheads in the land of delusional exceptional-ism are taking a hint from their Chinese partners in garbage.Viva Alemania !.....of course those idiots, even Metabo and Fein are pulling the same shlt. A disposable, recyclable world with engineered in failure.Nothing personal. It's just business.Bubble gumTooth pixDuct tapeBlack glueGBMF hammerScrew gun --bad battery (see above)
Reply:Should go to. 045 for that work.
Reply:Let's see, 0.035 70S-6 wire with C25 gas.At ~18-20V and 200-250 ipm WFS, you'd be around 160-180 amps and right in the 'sweet spot' for short-circuit transfer mode (fine-tuning the volts and WFS for a smooth and steady sizzling-bacon sound     ).At ~28-30V and 400+ ipm WFS, with C25 you'd be in a globular-transfer mode (hence all the splatter and BBs all over the place) at around 200 amps or so.  Oh, and the weld transfer efficiency has probably dropped from 93%+ for the short-circuit transfer mode parameters down to closer to 85%(-) for the globular transfer mode parameters.  Add in the extra labor for the splatter clean-up and IMNSHO whoever is calling for those slightly 'hotter' but waaaaaay more inefficient weld parameters should be beaten with a piece of pipe because they are being an idiot.And globular is just as easy to get "inadequate penetration" of the weld as short-circuit transfer mode.  No magic there.  Those parameters only gave you maybe 10% more amps anyway for the globular inefficient transfer mode compared to the more efficient short-circuit transfer mode parameters.If you want hot and fast, you would have to jump up to spray-transfer mode.  Weld efficiency jumps up to ~98% (no spatter!).  Can't use C25 though, usually need something like C8 or some 98-2 Ar-O2.  And no out-of-position welding, the puddle is too fluid so you can pretty much only run 1F or 2F or 1G positions.  Unless you run some pulsed-spray, then you can dial-in the foreground/background parameters to enable out-of-position welding.As mentioned, if there is a desire for more amps and/or a faster deposition rate for the weld(s) in consideration, then a bigger wire (0.045 or 0.052 or bigger) or going up to spray-transfer mode parameters (or both!!) would be called for.We won't even go into undercut or excess weld size on poor quality and inefficiency as well.IMNSHO.  grrrr.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:I run my cp-302 at work at about 28amps with the wire feeder set at 6, we also are using c25 gas with .035 wire. Granted we are welding on thin *** metal, 1/16" wall thickness tubing. Think the thickest thing I weld on are the outriggers for 8.5 wide trailers and there 1/8" thick main frame of the trailer might be 3/16" tubing.93 Bobcat 225GMillerMatic 135HF Tig 91811
Reply:My guess would be they want more metal put down. But if you splatter up your work then have to do major cleanup after you lose some of your savings. We have a lot of "those" people at my work. I guess it all depends how much clean up will cost you. I did a few 3/16 thick A36 jobs where it was faster to run .035 wire and C10 gas at 27 volts but then turn your Wfs up past spray into Hot Short arc and wire wheel the BB's after, than it was to short arc with CO2 or C25. Would have sprayed the job but it tended to warp a bit too much.... Gotta weigh you pos & neg.... good luck!TOOLS AND TOYSSMAW Mid States Inc. "MISSING LINK" 10-150 AMP Buzzer circa 1945ishSMAW Magic Wand 40-60 AMP Suitcase Buzzer circa 1939ishGMAW Hobart 210 IronmanOxy-Propane TorchMany other old and cold goodies"Rusty but Trusty"
Reply:Sorry in advance for this question... What is a BB?Based on the context, it seems like it might be an extra big piece of spatter or something.Aspiring Top-Notch WeldorLooking for work/experience in Eastern Massachussetts
Reply:Yes excess filler wire and weld puddle material that essentially splatters out of the pool, like grease in a frying pan.
Reply:@ rschreck - those elevated settings are not helping with net fusion.  As 'MoonRise' eloquently explained, you're transitioning from short-circuit transfer to globular spray at those settings.  Nothing more.  The excessive spatter is from using shielding gas with an excessive CO2 content for the application.  Have no idea of your welding position (2F/G?), but you're excessive speed is taxing the .035 wire's current density in glob xfer mode.The post-weld cleanup $$ from using a non-optimized approach probably zeroes out any net productivity gains.  If you are trying to increase production (ie. work in place) with faster travel speeds, rip to true axial (spray) transfer and use C10 (90Ar/10CO2).  It's all in the physics bro.Last edited by ManoKai; 03-25-2014 at 11:23 AM.Reason: syntax"Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:If the globular transfer used in this case looks and sounds like this video - the settings are incorrect - as stated very well by other members.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:makes you wonder why they don't just switch to DualShield. Too much slag?
Reply:. . . and we still don't know what material rschreck and crew are welding at these elevated settings.According to Miller's MIG welding calculator, his suggested settings would indicate a material in the neighborhood of 12-14ga. unless I'm missing something.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:My buddy worked at Fisher Plow factory up in Maine for a few years. He hated it, all production work. Don't remember the paramaters he was telling me, but I remember him saying they would run something like 30in welds in like five seconds. Undercut and spatter everywhere. He quit that job, completely hated it, but one of the most higher paying jobs where he was living. $280 a week LOL. He did say that some of the plows were built to perfection tho. The big guns for trains and monster equipment etc. And some were built out of polished stainless steel. For some high end companies. I think Senor Burpee nailed it.I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Makes me happy I work in a place that knows all the extra clean up is not worth it dollar wise. A few companies have a brain, most sadly don't. I am quite happy running 19-22 volts and never having anything to clean. Paying someone to clean up a mess that does not need to be there.. Could save a lot of money and still have great production.