FCAW Help Needed

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I am a welder in Hawaii and am working on a structural steel project welding 3/8” thick square tubing for a building frame.  The welds are subject to inspection by a welding inspector.  I have been using Excel Arc 71  .045” with good results (passed my first inspection) but there has been a problem coming up with high winds at the site and making the wind shields became impractical.  I got a roll of Fabshield XLR-8 in the 1/16” diameter size to use in the wind but am having lots of problems with it, especially welding vertical up.   The biggest problem is that the flux does not follow the arc well enough to hold the weld metal when in the vertical up position.   Even when running practice beads in the flat position the flux is inconsistent in following the arc and sometimes beads up or splits down the middle.  I can get the flux to follow better by reducing the voltage in increments but when it starts looking right the voltage seems too low with a ropey weld and the electrode stubbing into the work at the beginning of the weld.I am using  a Miller XMT 350 CC/CV (on the MIG or CV setting) with a 60 series wire feeder.  The polarity is set to DCEN,  inductance +10, voltage at the machine 18V, wire speed 145 IPM, and the machine reads 180 amp while welding.  We put a volt meter on the machine while welding and got about 17.5 volts (we tried actually checking at the work piece and got a little less, more like 17).  We checked the wire speed by timing and measuring the wire and the 145 imp is accurate.  I am using a stick out of 1”.  I checked all the connections which seemed ok (the same machine was working fine with the Excel Arc 71 wire in the DCEP polarity setting) and the work piece and ground connection are clean.  The wire seems fresh (we just bought it) and we are bagging it in plastic each night to protect from moisture.I tried the recommended setting of 21V and 187 ipm also.  This was much harder to control in vertical up with the flux beading up and not forming a good shelf at all (it either just beads up randomly or splits down the middle) If I slow down the travel speed to let the flux catch up the electrode sometimes burns right through the work piece. I assume that with practice I could do better but it seems like something else might be wrong and I need to solve this quickly to proceed with the job.Please advise if there is something I am missing.  Also, any further information on technique with this wire (or if there is a better wire for my application) would be appreciated.  •What is the recommended gun angle for vertical up?  I tried dragging, straight on and pushing.  A slight push seemed the best but nothing has worked well yet.•What should I look for or adjust to get the flux to come out evenly over the bead and not split or bead up?•Should the procedure with this wire be similar to other T-8 wires like NR-232 or are there special things about this wire I should know which make it different.  Thanks
Reply:Gas-less flux core is never an acceptable substitute for applications calling for gas shielded, mate. IMHO There is a world of difference in weld quality. Don't let marketing claims fool you. Your own experience ought to give you plenty of reason to mistrust this stuff. mine sure has.Does the company you contracted with know that you switched consumables on them? They likely would not approve of it. You're likely to get an earful from the engineer, if said engineer is worth the degree above his desk. Sadly many engineers are influenced by sales-biased literature from the companies that make top dollar selling these worthless products. They are not influence by a desire to test and verify the weld procedures they use.:I suggest you get a bunch of sheet metal, and make some tack-on wind protection. Also invest in some portable wind screens. If you think the wind issue is unsolvable, contact your client and ask them permission to switch to tried-and-true E7018-H4R.Gas-less flux core is maybe good for hobby projects, But not for application where things like control of weld chemistry, crack resistance, and impact toughness are important.
Reply:Originally Posted by JoshfromsaltlakeGas-less flux core is maybe good for hobby projects, But not for application where things like control of weld chemistry, crack resistance, and impact toughness are important.
Reply:Are you kidding the Port Authority/DCM Erectors is using Tons of Core Shield 8 on the Trade Center !!! Lincoln NR -232 and NR-233 are also the electrode of choice for Seismic welding of field connections . We have only used Lincoln in our shop since Lincoln has been in busness and we have been fabricating over 100 years Pic of LT-7 tractor 900 amps LA-75 twin 5/64 sub arc. Attached Images
Reply:I would call the Hobart Tech line and you'll probably talk to Ivan. He is a very nice fellow and very knoweldgeable of their products. (800)532-2618Please let us know the outcome. I was going to try that wire, but 1/16" is the smallest dia. available, and just too large for what I do."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:CSparks,Recommend you raise your voltage to 22 volts and 200 IPM wire feed speed.  17.5 volts is far too low for that wire feed speed/amperage.  at 18V, the feeder should run about 125 IPM of wire feed speed.If you're having trouble measuring and setting voltage at the feeder, run some beads on scrap fillets, keep turning the voltage up until you start getting wormtracking, then back it down until the wormtracking dissappears.  Don't rely on the voltage shown on the front of the power supply if you have long runs of weld lead.  the voltage drop can be large over long distances, depending on the size of the cable you're using.Off the top of my head, I'm not certain what induction setting to use with that power supply.  But based on my experiences, it should have small/limited effect on the arc stability and puddle fluidity with an XMT and FCAW-S wires.Straight in to a slight push(0-10° push) is correct with XLR-8.  Establish the puddle and let the slag build a shelf for vertical up welding.  Advance up the joint at a steady pace, weaving as needed to maintain bead width at the required travel speed.  (I'm assuming you have a WPS to follow, in order to control heat input, if you're doing structural welding in an earthquake prone area.)I've attached a photo from a few years ago showing a vertical up fillet on 1/2" plate I did with 1/16" XLR-8. Not the best example of welding with XLR-8.  I can weld them flatter now than I did back then.If you're still having trouble I second the recommendation to call Hobart Customer service and talk with Kim or Ivan.  Either should be able to help you resolve the problem.  800-532-2618.If possible, post a photo typical of the welds you made before and after adjusting voltage.  I'm not clear on what's wrong with the flux coverage you're getting based on the description.Stupid question checklist.- polarity is correctly set at DCEN?  You didn't swap a set of quick connects over a long run of leads?- You checked wire feed speed by running 6 seconds of wire out of the gun and then multiplying by 10? or 10 seconds and multiplying by 6?- 1/16" v knurled drive rollers?  Not smooth rollers for solid wire?- XMT set for FCAW wire, not MIG?  Running in CV mode?  Feeder set for CV mode if it has a switch to select for CV/CC? Attached ImagesBenson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:Originally Posted by JoshfromsaltlakeGas-less flux core is never an acceptable substitute for applications calling for gas shielded, mate. IMHO There is a world of difference in weld quality. Don't let marketing claims fool you. Your own experience ought to give you plenty of reason to mistrust this stuff. mine sure has.Does the company you contracted with know that you switched consumables on them? They likely would not approve of it. You're likely to get an earful from the engineer, if said engineer is worth the degree above his desk. Sadly many engineers are influenced by sales-biased literature from the companies that make top dollar selling these worthless products. They are not influence by a desire to test and verify the weld procedures they use.:I suggest you get a bunch of sheet metal, and make some tack-on wind protection. Also invest in some portable wind screens. If you think the wind issue is unsolvable, contact your client and ask them permission to switch to tried-and-true E7018-H4R.Gas-less flux core is maybe good for hobby projects, But not for application where things like control of weld chemistry, crack resistance, and impact toughness are important.
Reply:Originally Posted by Stick-manI would call the Hobart Tech line and you'll probably talk to Ivan. He is a very nice fellow and very knoweldgeable of their products. (800)532-2618Please let us know the outcome. I was going to try that wire, but 1/16" is the smallest dia. available, and just too large for what I do.
Reply:Originally Posted by A_DAB_will_doCSparks,Recommend you raise your voltage to 22 volts and 200 IPM wire feed speed.  17.5 volts is far too low for that wire feed speed/amperage.  at 18V, the feeder should run about 125 IPM of wire feed speed.If you're having trouble measuring and setting voltage at the feeder, run some beads on scrap fillets, keep turning the voltage up until you start getting wormtracking, then back it down until the wormtracking dissappears.  Don't rely on the voltage shown on the front of the power supply if you have long runs of weld lead.  the voltage drop can be large over long distances, depending on the size of the cable you're using.Off the top of my head, I'm not certain what induction setting to use with that power supply.  But based on my experiences, it should have small/limited effect on the arc stability and puddle fluidity with an XMT and FCAW-S wires.Straight in to a slight push(0-10° push) is correct with XLR-8.  Establish the puddle and let the slag build a shelf for vertical up welding.  Advance up the joint at a steady pace, weaving as needed to maintain bead width at the required travel speed.  (I'm assuming you have a WPS to follow, in order to control heat input, if you're doing structural welding in an earthquake prone area.)I've attached a photo from a few years ago showing a vertical up fillet on 1/2" plate I did with 1/16" XLR-8. Not the best example of welding with XLR-8.  I can weld them flatter now than I did back then.If you're still having trouble I second the recommendation to call Hobart Customer service and talk with Kim or Ivan.  Either should be able to help you resolve the problem.  800-532-2618.If possible, post a photo typical of the welds you made before and after adjusting voltage.  I'm not clear on what's wrong with the flux coverage you're getting based on the description.Stupid question checklist.- polarity is correctly set at DCEN?  You didn't swap a set of quick connects over a long run of leads?- You checked wire feed speed by running 6 seconds of wire out of the gun and then multiplying by 10? or 10 seconds and multiplying by 6?- 1/16" v knurled drive rollers?  Not smooth rollers for solid wire?- XMT set for FCAW wire, not MIG?  Running in CV mode?  Feeder set for CV mode if it has a switch to select for CV/CC?
Reply:Originally Posted by PavinsteelmanAre you kidding the Port Authority/DCM Erectors is using Tons of Core Shield 8 on the Trade Center !!! Lincoln NR -232 and NR-233 are also the electrode of choice for Seismic welding of field connections . We have only used Lincoln in our shop since Lincoln has been in business and we have been fabricating over 100 years .
Reply:ALL the joints in the northridge earthquakes that failed were welded with early generation FCAW electrodes like NS-3m which is a great fab electrode but dosent meet the notch toughness requirements of the todays welding in high sizmic regions.   and its more than the just building blinds, its handling, storing and transporting large amounts of high pressure cylinders in use on job sites with todays "safety climate".    TO say that all gas shielded FCAW-S electrodes are supperior to Self shielded wires is not only foolish but wrong.  Not to mention dealing with tons of sheet metal scraps for building wind shields and blinds is a royal PITA on a job the size of the new WTC.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:Self shielded wires usually require a longer stick out from contact tip to work piece.  Check the recommended stick out and follow it. I normally take the gas nozzle off of my gun when using self shielded wire.
Reply:I'm like a duck out of water when it comes to wire, but here's the current?? catalog for Lincoln wires.  http://www.lincolnelectric.com/asset...ure/mc1117.pdfI did, however, have concerns using wire for one of my projects, and switched to Excalibur SMAW, and Lincoln AC SMAW consumables.  My major concern was charpy ratings, not seismic ratings, although seismic ratings were very important considering the welds were on a vehicle.I hope I haven't muddied the waters any.As the above poster stated, maybe the big corporations lied to us.  That can't be true  When does big business ever lie to us??"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:We have welded probably 200 tons of weld material in the last 3 years in our shop 100 % Lincoln 1/16 UltraCore 71 Elite , LA-75  / 860 , 8018 C-3 Excalber , LA-85 Mill800. Notice something ??  Only Gray and Red welders too . Been doing this over 100 years !!!! Never a problem with quality of products !!!! Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by JoshfromsaltlakeThen, one should hope that they perform extensive full-scale testing of the design for their field joints. Before they start writing WPS's and WPQ'S .Let us hope that their fitters have the same goals as their welders, and both follow the WPS. In any case DCM's purchasing managers may not be aware that they could save tens of thousands in materials cost by selecting low-cost, decades-proven E71-T1 gas shielded wires. rather than paying a premium for "magic bullet wire."Then they should send a bin of sheet metal scraps with the welders for tack-on wind protection. Here's what ESAB says about Coreshield 8. read between the lines."Coreshield 8 is tested and certified to meet the new AWS D designation requirements, making this self-shielded wire an excellent choice for demand critical welds....."  (OK stop right there. You mean your other self-shielded wires DON'T?) Note that gas-sheilded wires don't make statements like this in their literature...because it already goes without saying that you will produce a weld with acceptable notch-impact toughness.You may not be aware that the use of self-shielded wires was implicated in many of the serious structural failures during the '93 Northridge earthquake. The main reason being a high level of weld defects and insufficient notch impact toughness. You may not be aware that Lincoln aggressively marketed these products to construction companies all over California, prior to Northridge and AWS D1.8. They narrowly escaped major legal action for doing so. In my opinion they remain culpable for millions of undiscovered weld failures in CA.
Reply:http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build97/art029.html"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:http://cedb.asce.org/cgi/WWWdisplay.cgi?9501474"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:http://www.mwsco.com/kb/kb_frameset.asp?ArticleID=74"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:http://www.thefabricator.com/article...e-in-the-courtThe last paragraph is interesting.  "Welder didn't have to be an expert to lay a good weld bead".  Is this what we've come down to in this world?"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Wonder what the AWS classification was for NR-211? Not NR-211MP which is E71T-11. Seems as I remember right after the earthquake is when Lincoln came out with the MP. I also remember NR-211 being very brittle. And the MP version a lot better.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:We used alot of NR211 MP in .068 diameter in freight car fabrication/repair. It welded out of position great, vertical (up) with the electrode pointing down about 15 - 20 degrees, 3/4" - 1" stick-out, (sorry, don't remember the V/A/WFS). It was not recommended for >1/2" material for Charpy failure reasons. We switched to Dualshield (E71T-1); however Lincoln recommended we change to NR212.  For some upper management reason, we did not.Weldtek
Reply:If I remember correctly 211 is only good up to 3/8 thickness. That may have something to do with brittleness. That is merely me thinking out loud though. Sent from my BlackBerry 9650 using TapatalkCERTIFICATIONS:7018M- H.V.O10718M- H.V.O11018M- H.V.O9N10- H.V.O71T-1-HYM- H.O.V100S1 PULSE ARC 0,035- H.O.V100S1 PULSE ARC 0.045- H.O.VER70S-3 PULSE ARC 0.035 H.O.VER70S-3 PULSE ARC 0.045 H.O.VER5554- H.O.V
Reply:Originally Posted by NHMattIf I remember correctly 211 is only good up to 3/8 thickness. That may have something to do with brittleness. That is merely me thinking out loud though.