Help me TIG better (stainless w/ Diversion 180)

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Hey guys - just picked up my Diversion 180.  Just had to burn some rod and make sure she works before settling in.  Well, she works, but I don't lol.This is using 3/32 Ceriated tungsten sharpened to a point as recommended.  I only have 308L rod and 304L tubing right now.  The tubing is 0.0625".  I picked up some fill rod from AirGas its 3/32" 308L.  I had the machine set up for about 65A max,  using  foot pedal.  These are literally the first attempts in like... 2 - 3 years so, be easy!Without fill rod:TIG practice by Jon Kensy, on FlickrWithout fill rod (I know I went off the edge/too hot there):TIG practice by Jon Kensy, on FlickrFill rod added (this is where it gets more... bumpy):TIG practice by Jon Kensy, on FlickrInside showing sugaring and yuckiness:TIG practice by Jon Kensy, on FlickrSoooo.  What I have learned, I think, is that the fill rod may be too thick?  It takes a bump of the foot to get the fill rod to melt nicely.  I like the golden/salmon color of the welds w/o fill rod, but when I add fill rod my welds turn more grey and wider, which to me says I am having to add more heat to weld the rod nicely.  When feeding the rod it feels kind of "sticky" like I can get the filler  to melt in nice for a dab or two, then it takes a smidge of a "tug" to pull it back, then sometimes I end up with the fill rod sitting on top/in the way of the bead, and have to lift the torch some and melt the blob into the weld.  So, I think my rod might be too large, but I don't know.Any help/suggestions are appreciated!  I think I was using about 15 CF on the argon.Thanks all!
Reply:Your filler rod is 50% larger than the material you are trying to weld! No big surprise you are having some issues. The "stickiness" you feel is the puddle cooling down to the point it's getting almost solid. You add more heat and then the thin material is too hot and you get that grey color. It also sounds like you are melting the filler with the arc rather than the puddle to try and compensate, when you say " then sometimes I end up with the fill rod sitting on top/in the way of the bead, and have to lift the torch some and melt the blob into the weld."I'd probably say go down to .045 wire to better match the material thickness. 1/16" could be used also, but you'll have to be more careful with the filler more so than with the smaller fill wire to keep from cooling the bead too much or using too much heat.I don't know what your tig experience level is, but I'm guessing it's not extensive from your basic issues. .0625 is fairly thin for someone with lower skill levels. You may find this a fairly heavy challenge. You might want to start your practice on a bit thicker material like 1/8" mild steel, where heat control isn't as critical. Once you have that down, then move to thinner material. One thing that's fairly typical is that newer guys often have issues with doing round tube on top of doing thin material. With round tube, you must keep constantly changing the torch angle in relationship to the part. The smaller the tube, the faster you have to make the changes. Thin tube will not be as forgiving for the long arc length that will constantly keep occurring if you don't make these changes. Also round tube is almost never done in the flat position, but usually requires at least 3 positions, generally flat, overhead and vertical for example. You'll need to practice all positions as well and be able to rapidly transition between them at the same time you are making those torch angle adjustments. Thin tube is one of the hardest things you can do, so don't be surprised if you don't get the results you are looking for instantly. Sounds like in many ways you are trying to jump to chapter 15 before you get thru the chapters before it... The last pict shows major sugaring on the inside of the tube because you don't have any shielding. Pretty much a classic example of what happens with material this thin if you don't back gas or use a shielding flux..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:+1 on DSW's comments.Another thing is watch how much you're heating up the metal and how well this hot metal is being shielded by argon. Experiment a bit - weld a patch then whip the gas away - it'll go grey and dull. Try it again, but stop the arc and keep shielding until the metal is cool - it should have no colour at all. Your first photo shows the extremes. Once you understanding heat and shielding with stainless you will have a much better time. Cheers - Mick
Reply:Thanks guys - I know I am ahead of myself, thats how I enter all hobbies lol.Kidding - sort of.So the goldish/salmon color is not desireable?  I did have a few beads that were neutral in color.I ordered from 1/16" filler because I can understand that the 3/32 being thicker then the base metal is going to cause issues.  So, I am learning!  Where do you guys get filler thinner than 1/16"?
Reply:you can use the appropriate mig wire which is available down to  .025...pull a few feet off the roll , chuck one end in a vise and twist the other and it will lose the curl and act like a rod..
Reply:Oh, true.  For now I will go with 1/16" I think that's pretty reasonable for the work I plan to do.
Reply:"rainbow colors" tell you how hot the bead was when you lost shielding. Grey is bad, because it usually means the bead was too hot when the shielding gas was removed. Gold / salmon is OK in color..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSW"rainbow colors" tell you how hot the bead was when you lost shielding. Grey is bad, because it usually means the bead was too hot when the shielding gas was removed. Gold / salmon is OK in color.
Reply:Originally Posted by chimmikeSo that means reduce heat then, right? when the weld is grey, reduce heat and slow down, so less heat is needed for the puddle, then slower movement leaves the shielding gas on there longer ?
Reply:Originally Posted by chimmikeSo that means reduce heat then, right? when the weld is grey, reduce heat and slow down, so less heat is needed for the puddle, then slower movement leaves the shielding gas on there longer ?
Reply:Made a little more progressStainless practice by Jon Kensy, on Flickr
Reply:Excellent Jon.You are certainly getting the idea. The color is looking perfect.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonExcellent Jon.You are certainly getting the idea. The color is looking perfect.
Reply:045 filler is what you need. I do a lot of 16 ga tubing for exh. The 045 works great. It melts fast and you can feed it in smoothly. I use a lot of it.I order from Tig Depot. They have a good variety of material and sizes.mm135HTP Invertig 201 With water cooler9" Southbend LatheLots of hand tools.
Reply:Originally Posted by papasloan045 filler is what you need. I do a lot of 16 ga tubing for exh. The 045 works great. It melts fast and you can feed it in smoothly. I use a lot of it.I order from Tig Depot. They have a good variety of material and sizes.
Reply:What size gas cup are you using? I'm wondering if that's part of my problem. If I go faster, no puddle develops, unless I crank up the heat, and I'm wondering if the gas coverage isn't good because i'm going too fast. Hm.Very nice, btw.Hobart EZ-Tig newbie.
Reply:Originally Posted by chimmikeWhat size gas cup are you using? I'm wondering if that's part of my problem. If I go faster, no puddle develops, unless I crank up the heat, and I'm wondering if the gas coverage isn't good because i'm going too fast. Hm.Very nice, btw.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jon KMy 045 filler should be here today!Anxious to start doing more creating!This is 1.25 schedule 10 pipe, beveled, auto'd root pass (very narrow root) with a second filler pass.  Filler was 1/16 as that is all I had on hand and wanted to practice.  1/16 tungsten in use - I seem to like 1/16 better than 3/32 for this.I think my bead will be more consistent/linear with thinner filler since I won't have it getting stuck and expanding outward into a puddle that's too large..  that's my theory anyway!
Reply:Originally Posted by Jon KMy biggest issue is a nice linear weld pattern but then again I am trying on 2.5" stainless pipe.  So, its got a pretty short "linear" run on any side.
Reply:Thanks DSW.  I picked up a gas lens kit off ebay - so far I really like it!I had to weld a stainless O2 bung onto 2.5" exaust which meant for some sharp angles between a flange and the root of the join.  The extra stick-out made it possible to do!So now I am back to welding small pipe.  I did a autogenous root  pass and want to hit it back up with filler (obviously).  The gap is quite small - I'd say its about 3/32 or so.  What size filler would you use?  I got some 0.045" and it's definitely nice than the 1/16" was in terms of how much heat is required, but I am still not super consistent with it.  Thoughts?Miller Diversion 180Hobart Handler 140 (Soon to be replaced with Miller 211?)Miller Spectrum 625 Extreme
Reply:Not quite sure I'm understanding the question. Do you have a gap, or have you already run the root pass?Personally with a gap, I'd opt for the 1/16" filler to help fill the gap, assuming the base material isn't too thin. 16ga ( .063) and 1/16" filler would for all practical purposes make an autogenous weld if you used the lay wire technique to fill the gap. If not, filling the gap is all about puddle control. You need enough heat to break down the side walls, but not so much that you loose control of the puddle. On thin material with a "big" gap, that's quite a challenge.I'm still wondering if you are back purging your stainless yet. If not, you're just pizzing in the wind with stainless that thin. You can see the sugaring on the inside of the pipe in the one pict. That stainless is trashed there now. Why even bother to use stainless if you are just going to destroy it when you weld it anyways? There's a lot more to doing stainless than basic tig skills, especially with thin stainless.The answer to consistency... Practice and work on the basics. You are rushing ahead and that's the best way to not go anywhere fast. I'm guessing you are doing all this tube flat, probably rolling it as you go. That's all fine and dandy until you can't do that on a project. If you can't weld horizontal, vertical and overhead on flat material, chances are you won't have a prayer doing 2G, 5G or 6G with tube. You learn this all by starting out with say 1/8" material and working thru all the joints, lap, T, outside corner and butt joints on flat plate in each position until you can do it in your sleep every time. Then do it all over again with 1/16". Then start on tube In 1G, followed in order with 2G, 5G and 6G on tube that's maybe 1/8" wall again if not thicker. Fit up will  be more critical with tube. You learn to deal with gaps and all when you learned flat plate. Stainless throws in the need for more heat control, and purging or back gassing. Again usually you learn this when you start at the beginning again with stainless. By this time a good bit of the flat work is all just fine tuning if you've gone thru the basic steps from the beginning. Some can breeze right thru, and others can't. Usually those that can't, never really learned and got the basics down and will beat their head on the walls until they do.I know... Practice is "boring" and "projects" are fun. Unfortunately if you want a chance at your projects turning out semi decent, you need to at least put in the minimum basic practice to learn the basic skills before you start "practicing" on projects. Attached Images.No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:DSW - my intentions are welding automotive exhausts and manifolds.  I have no interest in welding over head or industrial pipe.The biggest pipe I will ever use is 1.5 schedule 10.  I had good fit up, cut the bevel, and did a root pass to fuse the pieces together clean.  I then want to go back over it with a filler pass.Again, I will only ever be welding automotive things - small boxes, etc.For right now these are just practice pieces.  I will back purge and such when I get further along.Last edited by Jon K; 04-29-2012 at 06:20 PM.Miller Diversion 180Hobart Handler 140 (Soon to be replaced with Miller 211?)Miller Spectrum 625 Extreme
Reply:Originally Posted by Jon KDSW - my intentions are welding automotive exhausts and manifolds.  I have no interest in welding over head or industrial pipe..
Reply:I hear you DSW it's just that I am trying to get good, or decent, at the things I "need" (relative word) to work on.  I really won't be building cages or building an exhaust ON a car.  I have a MIG and tack things up, then bring them over to the bench.  That's just how I work.I am making a tool to cut elbow pipes on.  Its two pieces of 1/8" steel at a 90.  I practiced walking the cup.  I had this piece in a fixture to keep everything square so when I started welding I had very little room and the torch got kind of hard to manipulate so that's what's up with the right side of the bead.  I did the middle and left side walking a bit better.Walk the cup by Jon Kensy, on FlickrYou can see I got the hang of it in that one area.  I didn't weld it all the way across because of clamping so I bounced around.  I also slipped a piece of wire under it to avoid warp.Flatness by Jon Kensy, on FlickrMiller Diversion 180Hobart Handler 140 (Soon to be replaced with Miller 211?)Miller Spectrum 625 Extreme
Reply:As Doug has so eloquently stated,It's all those "little things" that you don't consider important to learn, that will come back and bite you on the azz when you least expect it.The hardest thing to get thru the head of a "beginning tigger" is how much they really don't know about the process.  Prime example of a case where "ignorance is NOT bliss".Jon, you've got talent and potential, but you need to lose the "attitude".  One bottle of argon does not make one a tig welder.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.Originally Posted by SundownIIIAs Doug has so eloquently stated,It's all those "little things" that you don't consider important to learn, that will come back and bite you on the azz when you least expect it.The hardest thing to get thru the head of a "beginning tigger" is how much they really don't know about the process.  Prime example of a case where "ignorance is NOT bliss".Jon, you've got talent and potential, but you need to lose the "attitude".  One bottle of argon does not make one a tig welder.
Reply:Jon, what they are trying to tell you is to take a dose of humility.  While your ultimate goal is to weld small gauge tubing, to truly learn the TIG process, you need to learn all aspects.  By doing that, I promise you will be able to weld the tubing, plus much more if the need arises.  Several posters put an awful lot of thought and time into their responses to you in this thread.  Take some time, digest what they've said and put it to practice.Lincoln Powermig 255Hypertherm Powermax 45Thermal Arc 161SOxweld 24R OA TorchStill Looking for an Old Round Top Idealarc 250
Reply:Here's some fillet welds  I tried tonight on 1/8 mild w/ ER70-S2 1/16 filler, 3/32 certiated tungsten, Diversion 180 set for 115A, #7 gas lens, about 15 cfh, and the bottle is dying.  I think it had enough to do these welds though there are a couple spots that got dirty quick, so I wonder if the gas flow was not enough there.Critique/advice pleaseIMG_0021.jpg by Jon Kensy, on FlickrMild steel practice by Jon Kensy, on FlickrMiller Diversion 180Hobart Handler 140 (Soon to be replaced with Miller 211?)Miller Spectrum 625 Extreme
Reply:Beads look cold.  On .125, I'd have the machine set to 135-150 and use the pedal to control the heat.   You need to come off the pedal as you approach the edge, as there's less of an area to absorb the heat.  I'm betting the top bead was the first of the two you laid down.Last edited by Drf255; 05-01-2012 at 05:24 AM.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Originally Posted by Jon KHere's some fillet welds  I tried tonight on 1/8 mild w/ ER70-S2 1/16 filler, 3/32 certiated tungsten, Diversion 180 set for 115A, #7 gas lens, about 15 cfh, and the bottle is dying.  I think it had enough to do these welds though there are a couple spots that got dirty quick, so I wonder if the gas flow was not enough there.Critique/advice please
Reply:Yeah they could be too cold.  I am using the 180, inverter machine, had it at 115A.  I can try up to 125A on 110v.  It was more or less a trial.  I am focusing mostly on torch control and filler feeding.I salvaged some 3/32" plate from work (powder coated, so I need to strip that).  That should give me more material to practice on!Miller Diversion 180Hobart Handler 140 (Soon to be replaced with Miller 211?)Miller Spectrum 625 Extreme
Reply:Arc length, arc length, arc length. Read this thread... http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=23787&highlight=arc+length and then look at your fillet, same void at the root (red arrow)This is why the others have been banging on about the stuff they have. On your first trip to a ski resort you don't go and seek the snow park or a black run because that's where your interests lie, you learn the basics first. Developing the muscle memory necessary to maintain your arc length goes a lot easier and faster if you start with something less fussy than small diameter thin wall tubePic didn't come out great but note the lack of a void at the start of the bead...I didn't get two weld puddles and bridge them with filler wire, when the arc length's correct you get one weld pool to add wire to. That's 16swg (1/16") to 8 or 10mmFor all those that keep bleating on about weld colour... http://weldingweb.com/showpost.php?p=479511&postcount=16 Yes, sometimes weld colour is a big deal but as the OP is more interested in car bits than sanitary work then beautiful silver/golden straw on an exhaust part that'll end up COVERED in surface oxides once the engines been run in anger are less of a deal than getting the basics (undercut, lack of fusion, incompete penetration etc) rightLast edited by hotrodder; 05-01-2012 at 06:11 PM.