Rails on a utility trailer

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So, I know trailer threads take a beating on here, so I'll keep this to the bare minimum details.  Also, I searched and couldn't find anything exactly addressing this.I have a 16' utility trailer.  It's very heavy.  The side rails are 2" x 1/4" angle iron and they are all beat up.  I have to replace the deck and re-paint the trailer.  While I have the deck off, I'd like to either fix or remove the rails.  I know the frame and tounge is made of  at least 4" channel, possibly 5", I didn't notice how thick it is.  The tounge is A-frame style, going all the way back to the axles.  Also, there is a section of channel welded under the frame behind the axles.  From what I can see of the center supports, they are 2 1/2" x 1/4" angle.  My biggest concern with the whole thing is that the center supports are welded to the inside of the channel with the open end of the "V" up.  All the other trailers I have and have built have the center supports welded like and upside down L.Would you guys think that a 4" or 5" channel frame would be strong enough by itself, of does it need the rails to act as a truss?I'm thinking I should cut the center supports out and box the frame with 1/4" flat stock and weld the center supports back in like the upside down L.Note, this trailer will be used to haul hay on.  I can problably fit 4 small round bales on it.Thermal Arc 211i FabricatorAutoArc 130Lincoln AC 225O/A setAssorted hand tools and implements of destruction
Reply:It's pretty much pointless to even guess at something like this with no picts. to go off of.Trailer threads get beat on usually because the OP doesn't give enough info or obviously doesn't have the skills and knowledge to be tackling projects of this level. ( most threads start with, "I just bought a welder and want to learn... I want to build a trailer...") In general it comes down to a matter of safety. If you can't make code quality welds in all positions, all the time, with a machine that's large enough to do the job, you really shouldn't be doing it no matter how much you want to... ( I'll get off the soap box now)Honestly "4-5" channel frame" means nothing. Are you talking real C channel or is it simply former sheet from some ex travel trailer? Is the frame work structural or not? Lots of these questions are answered with picts many times.If you want a thread with minimal "disruptions" you will need to give us all the pertinent info because we don't know any more than you write in this one thread. A good detailed description with detailed questions that show you have the background and knowledge to do this will go a long ways to getting the info you want. There's a lot more to these sorts of things than simply grabbing a drawing and tossing parts together like some plastic model..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:The frame is channel iron, not stamped sheet.  And yes, the frame work will be structural.  I have the welding machine capabilities to do the work, and I am capable of completing the welds.The trailer frame is fine like it is.  The question is, would a 5" channel iron frame be strong enough to support a load without the rails?  If not, would boxing the frame help?  If that won't work, I'll just straighten the rails and leave as is.Thermal Arc 211i FabricatorAutoArc 130Lincoln AC 225O/A setAssorted hand tools and implements of destruction
Reply:it's quite easy to not get lambasted on a trailer build thread. see the thread below.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=59022give us the information we need and the pictures we need and we're usually pretty easy to work with. it's when people get defensive about their abilities, and get offended by the answers that they get that really stirs up the hornets nest. There are always going to be people who want to point out faults and critique hypercritically. that being said, those people can usually be minimized by providing more information. Not less. The people that don't provide information typically do so because they have something to hide. Either their ability or their true question. We've learned to not give answers to those people.So, lets see some pictures and we can move forward.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Ok, I see where you are coming from.  I'll get some pics.  It will probably take a few days. Thanks for the replies.Thermal Arc 211i FabricatorAutoArc 130Lincoln AC 225O/A setAssorted hand tools and implements of destruction
Reply:Post pictures...Miller thunderbolt 250Decastar 135ERecovering tool-o-holic ESAB OAI have been interested or involved in Electrical, Fire Alarm, Auto, Marine, Welding, Electronics ETC to name a just a few. So YES you can own too many tools.
Reply:OK, I took a look at the old trailer today.  The frame and tongue is regular 4" channel, in good shape, just surface rust.  The center supports are 5" x 1/4" angle, in bad shape.  They are very rusty b/c they are turned up and catch water.  The rails are 2" x 3" angle, 1/4" thick.  The rails are in good shape too, but they were obviously recycled b/c they have holes in them.  The rails are bent/warped.  The trailer is 16' long x 7' wide between the rails.Most of the flat (car-hauler) type trailers I've looked at have 5" channel frame and tongue.So, what can I do to reinforce this frame to be able to cut off the rails?  Could I box the frame with 1/4" flat bar?  Weld another piece of channel under it?  Any other ideas?I'm thinking about cutting out the center supports and boxing the frame with flat bar, the welding in new center supports.  I'm not sure how much extra support that would add.I also need to fix the hitch and replace the rear axle.  It needs two new tires and a spare.And lights....  And decking....I can only get two pictures to upload.  I'll work on that laterHere are the pictures: Attached ImagesLast edited by SethB; 12-08-2012 at 02:23 PM.Reason: added trailer dimensionsThermal Arc 211i FabricatorAutoArc 130Lincoln AC 225O/A setAssorted hand tools and implements of destruction
Reply:ok, my trailer, in the thread I posted above. is 3" channel, with a boxed 3" channel tongue.  It does not need rails. but it also has a good amount of flex if you're standing on one corner. the trailer has held it's max payload and the frame has had no issues.definitely want to replace the cross members and orientate them properly so that they don't catch water. Not sure if boxing the frame would be much help besides making the cross member connection an easier joint to prep. but you're better off coping the cross members for the channel anyway because it gives you more surface to weld too.  It looks to have old mobile home axles on it. I'd replace those with regular hubs if it were mine.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Originally Posted by SethBMost of the flat (car-hauler) type trailers I've looked at have 5" channel frame and tongue.So, what can I do to reinforce this frame to be able to cut off the rails?  Could I box the frame with 1/4" flat bar?  Weld another piece of channel under it?  Any other ideas?I'm thinking about cutting out the center supports and boxing the frame with flat bar, the welding in new center supports.  I'm not sure how much extra support that would add.I also need to fix the hitch and replace the rear axle.  It needs two new tires and a spare.And lights....  And decking....
Reply:Noob question but why do people use channel vs rectangular tube? I can't think of a reason to use channel, is it just cost, is channel that much cheaper?Miller diversion 165Miller mig 211Hypertherm pm 30Milwaukee 6230 14 inch chop sawMd 45 mag drill (RIP; fell on its head)New MD 45! Thanks to the esposa!Finally got an O/A setup
Reply:True C channel has most of the material concentrated in the areas where the most stress is, at the top and bottom. If you look at true C channel you will notice the top and bottom flanges are thicker than the web. It acts like a short truss using the material in the top and bottom "chords", to maximize the strength to weight ratio. Channel though tends to twist when loaded due to the "unbalanced" shape unless it's well braced.Rectangular tube has some good and bad points. It's easier to fit then channel, where the open side of the channel requires the end to be notched to fit. This saves on fitup and assembly costs. However tube is weaker than channel at the same height and weight. That's because more of the steel is in the wasted area of the web, not at the top and bottom. So tube needs to be taller to carry the same load, and needs to be thinner to have the same weight. Tube also tends to collect moisture and crud inside, promoting rust. Rust combined with a thinner material is a big problem for tube.Last would be custom bent sheet often bent in a C shape or a tube with the middle of one side taken out. The engineers try and maximize both strength and weight savings by doing this. They engineer the shape so that it will carry the most load with the least amount of steel and weight. You find this in things like mobile home frames and campers. It usually has all the down sides of both worlds. It's thin and twists more than channel, but rust weakens it like tube. They use this because the engineer works out that it is cheaper to save the steel and weight vs the added cost of having a custom made shape bent up. Usually cost is the big driving factor here. Many times they won't bother to notch the inside pieces because the top and bottom flanges are so thin it doesn't make that much difference..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:That frame is definetly not gonna be strong enough to do away with the rails.  Also you dont really need 5in angle iron for crossmembers and definetly it shouldnt be in that orientation.  I would buy a couple new sticks of 2x3 angle just like the rails and replace the rails and weld the crossmembers in an upside down L orientation.  This should be fairly cost effective.  A new a frame coupler is 40 dollars at tractor supply.  A bulldog is only a little more.  Finding a pair of used regular trailer axles and new bearings would be cost effective.  It would definetly be an upgrade over trailer house axles.  A trailer store will very often have used tires in good condition they are willing to sell for 30-50 bucks a peice.  Regular tire stores get trailer tires too for ab the same. Also 16 foot lumber is very easy to come by for free or close to it if you look for people doing demo etc.  Its not as uncommom as say 20ft boards or whatever.  You can figure 200 for the new steel work, 50 for a coupler, maybe 200 for a pair of axles, 100 for tires, and and worst case 100 for boards.  I gave a high estimate to acount for welding rods, etc.  So for 650 dollars you can have a very nice trailer that might as well be new.  This is still very cost effective.  If you ask around you will find the things you need.  Many people on this site are very negative and encourage people not to do things.^  Be safe and listen to your gut feeling.  If it doesnt seem right ask for help.  Youll be fine
Reply:Thanks for all your replies.  I think I'm going to keep rails on the trailer.  I will probably shorten them down to right above the fenders.  For new cross members, I'll use 2" x 3" x 3/16" angle on 2' centers.  I really can't see a way to join the crossmembers to the frame and keep the deck flush with the top of the frame without have the bottom leg of the angle hanging under the frame.  Any suggestions?Thermal Arc 211i FabricatorAutoArc 130Lincoln AC 225O/A setAssorted hand tools and implements of destruction
Reply:Originally Posted by SethBThanks for all your replies.  I think I'm going to keep rails on the trailer.  I will probably shorten them down to right above the fenders.  For new cross members, I'll use 2" x 3" x 3/16" angle on 2' centers.  I really can't see a way to join the crossmembers to the frame and keep the deck flush with the top of the frame without have the bottom leg of the angle hanging under the frame.  Any suggestions?
Reply:What are your thoughts on a trailer like this?:http://www.pjtrailers.com/detail.cfm?ID=C4It uses 4" Channel for the frame and tongue.  Looks very similar to what I originally wanted to do.  It has a 7K rating.Thermal Arc 211i FabricatorAutoArc 130Lincoln AC 225O/A setAssorted hand tools and implements of destruction
Reply:Lookin' good!- MondoMember, AWSLincoln ProMIG 140Lincoln AC TombstoneCraftsman Lathe 12 x 24 c1935Atlas MFC Horizontal MillCraftsman Commercial Lathe 12 x 36 c1970- - - I'll just keep on keepin' on.
Reply:Originally Posted by SethBWhat are your thoughts on a trailer like this?:http://www.pjtrailers.com/detail.cfm?ID=C4It uses 4" Channel for the frame and tongue.  Looks very similar to what I originally wanted to do.  It has a 7K rating.
Reply:Seth, as long as you're not putting more on it than you're supposed to (5000-5500 payload) you'll be fine without the obviously added on rails. can't say how much flex the trailer will have, but not enough to deter me from putting the weight on it. If properly loaded/balanced it's negligible anyway. obviously they sell the trailer as you want it stock so I don't see why you couldn't go without. Like I said before my 3" channel frame is up to the task, so a 4" channel frame is too.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:I'm going to go against the grain here but from the few pictures you have, I don't think this trailer will have any problem without the top rails at 7000 lbs.  We can't see the fitup of the rails in these photos but I am 99% sure this trailer didn't come with those rails, I think it is an old car/skidloader trailer someone welded them on.  Everyone gets excited when someone wants to cut the rails off a trailer because on some trailers they only have and angle iron main frame so the sides are required to hold it together. The reason you will see lighter trailers with 5" channel is because they have optional 7K or 10K gvw.  As shown the PJ someone linked to is structurally pretty similar design to yours and only 4" channel.   I have a 10K PJ bugghauler  and it is only 5" channel.  The PJ in the link cannot be ordered over 10K.   4 round bales, provided they came from a modern baler should run around 800-1200 lbs each so 4800 or so max.   I'd get the torch out and burn the side rails off, but let the front on for a bulkhead, cut out the crossmembers and throw new ones in be done with it.
Reply:I'm thinking the only weak spots on my trailer is the tongue and the section of the frame over the axles.  The tongue is not boxes or tied to the bulkhead.  I'm going to box the tongue l, add a crossmember to it, and tie it to the bulkhead.  I will cut the old bulkhead off and make a new one out of tubing and pipe.  Most of the frame is 4" channel doubled up, a section welded under the frame.  However, in the area where the axles are, is is only a section of 4" channel.  I will look into reinforcing this section.Also, I think I will reinforce the rear of the trailer.  I need to add a lip or something to hang ramps on.Note:  I'm not doing this to get over 7K lbs, I just think it could be better designed.Last edited by SethB; 12-11-2012 at 07:51 PM.Reason: Sorry for typos, posting on my phone.Thermal Arc 211i FabricatorAutoArc 130Lincoln AC 225O/A setAssorted hand tools and implements of destruction