Welding positioners

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Rock did me one last favor apparently before he left.  He forwarded my contact info onto a Miller dealer a little further away from me, but one that is very courteous and knowledgeable (THANK YOU ROCK!).  Stopped down to visit him today and was looking at maybe picking up a mig.  Due to some financial setbacks a few months ago, I had to drop my MM175.  That left me purely with the tig (T/A 185) - still haven't tried it as a stick yet, but will soon.Anyway, I was looking at the MM175 or MM210 trying to figure out where my money would be best spent.  90% of the work I do is with 1-1/2" through 2" DOM steel tubing.  Usually round, but maybe 20% square.  I need to speed up my work.  After talking to the friendly sales guy (who I think is the Airgas Mgr there), he tells me that instead of dropping the 1100-1200 on the MM210, that I should instead consider getting a welding positioner.  It would speed up my work, and help me produce better and more consistent welds (better, since it could be one long bead vs 4 start/stops).  This is something that had NEVER entered my mind.After talking to him, and going to his competitor (that he told me visit), it appears as though I need about a 200lb vertical - 100lb horizontal machine that can go real slow and is HF protected.  It seems like these are going to run any where from about $1,300 up to $2,500 including the chuck etc.I spent some time tonight on the web researching them, but I'm looking for any feedback any of you have.  The type of info I'm looking for are the positioner equivalent comments of "well I can teach someone to mig in 15 minutes, but do it right can take a lot longer since the beads all look nice and the apperance is misleading" or "if you're cutting 1/4" then get a plasma rated over that because you know you'll occassionally need more" type of stuff.I would appreciate any feedback at all, including brands, recommendations, things to look out for, sanity checks, even a smack to the back fo my head.Thanks
Reply:Positioners are both the handiest thing in the shop, and the most useless pile of crap you have to trip over.  Usually, unless you are doing some simple function over & over, a positioner is more trouble than it's worth.Depending on what you intend to build on the positioner, you'll probably be best served making your own from a lathe chuck a backing plate, and some conveyor skatewheels.  The most difficlut part of a positioner is the GROUND connection.You can automate it with a DC gearmotor speed controlled from a sewing machine foot pedal and bridge rectifier.Store bought positioners are very expensive because between half and 2/3 of the price is liability insurance for the manufacturer and the seller.  Too many people have dropped a weldment off a positioner and sued.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:If you happen to be near one of the Government Liquidation sale sites, there seem to be quite a few positioners going thru those sales.http://www.govliquidation.com/locations/east.htmlAppreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:Thanks Franz.  I never heard about government liquidations.  Yeah, I've seen the scheming junk email ads, but didn't know there were real ones.Thanks!Can anyone buy stuff at these or do you need to be a government person or contractor?  Thanks again.
Reply:All you need to do is register, GL is actually a division of one of the big auction companys, and they can be a pain in the a$$.If you aren't close enough to look at the item before you bid, don't bid.  They have been known to play games with lots.They can also be a PITA to load from, you need to be totally able to load yourself, without any need for a forklift, or they will screw you around.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:What is a positioner?   I have no idea what it is, but I think I already want one!
Reply:Mcentyre, it's similiar to a lathe or turntable.  It simply rotates, at a set speed, the work piece so you can make better welds.  Since I do mainly tube work, I may be getting one.  Since the weakest part of the welds are the start and stop, being able to draw a single bead across the work would be great.This is a simplistic explanation, but I am quite simple.
Reply:Junk,Government Liquidations is a good place to find stuff. I recently bought a Millermatic 35 for about $300. Took it home, plugged it in and welded. Like new. I agree with Franz. Positioners are freat for production runs, but unless you have trouble with out of position welding, it's sometimes more trouble to setup.oldebrush