Loader bucket mod

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Here are some pics and some notes from putting hooks on my loader bucket. Anybody who doesn't know me, a disclaimer: I'm very, very much a beginner. I don't mean to seem like I'm showing off, because my work is nothing to show off, but I know I like seeing projects from all skill levels, not just the pros, so I thought I'd share.I really came to appreciate 6011 on this project. There have been times I thought that 7018 would always be my go-to rod because it is so easy to run. My first few beads were just absolute garbage, though! I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. So I switched to 7014. Garbage! Porosity and bird-poop. I realized that part of the problem was that I hadn't cleaned the paint back far enough off the bucket, and it was getting involved in the weld. Come to think of it, I could kind of smell it too--same smell as I picked up when I was grinding off the paint. So I switched to 6011 and, while the welds aren't as smooth as 7018 and have some undercutting (sometimes a LOT of undercutting), they are solid and clean. I thought about turning down the heat to reduce the undercutting, but I figured on this job, I cared more about penetration than pretty welds. The first time I went over one of the 7018 welds with 6011, some sparks shot out of the weld, which I am guessing was paint or slag burning out. Just goes to show that welding coupons and welding in the real world are a lot different.The bottom edge of the weld-on hooks was beveled, and that gave me no end of trouble. I couldn't see the puddle at all when the tip of the rod was stuck deep into the bevel, so I did the first pass mostly by feel. It was junk. I went over those passes several times to build it out, but I really felt like I was walking a line between burning out the hook and building up the weld. As a workaround, I did one of the hooks using vertical up. I'm not sure why, but it seemed to make it easier to see what I was doing. The result was not entirely garbage, so I was a little proud of that.At the beginning, I clamped the ground clamp to the bucket's cutting edge, in a place where the paint had been scraped off. But the whole thing was really acting like I was having poor ground--having to turn the amperage higher than I should, and so forth. The flat stock was already tacked into position, and it was too wide for the ground clamp to get a bite on it. I wished that, before I had tacked it into place, I had tacked on a small rib of scrap to clamp the ground clamp to. That way I would be assured of a good ground. I went ahead and welded on one of the hooks and used it as a clamp location. Another thing I figured out to do was to take a big hunk of flat metal, clamp the ground clamp to it, and just set it on top of the work piece. INSTANT GROUND! I realize I'm probably not the first person to figure that out, but I still felt pretty clever.I'm pretty disappointed in a lot of the welds because I have done MUCH better when welding coupons, but at the end of the day, I'm still proud that I got the job done. The perfectionist in me is tempted to grind smooth some of those welds and try to go over them again and make them look nicer. The pragmatist in me says that I'm not likely to make them look any nicer the second time than I did the first time! Practically speaking, however, I wonder if some of them are a bit thin and need to be gone over again. I was working with 3/32" rod because the bucket is 1/8" and I didn't want to burn through. Now that I've got a pad of metal from the existing bead, I wonder whether it would be worthwhile to go back over it with 1/8" rod. It's possible that the larger rod will do a better job of filling the joint smoothly and maybe look nicer too. The only thing left now is to weld on the receiver tube. I'm not looking forward to it because the corners are rounded, and I'm going to have the same problem with it that I did with the hooks' bevels, only worse. I'm not sure what to do. I guess maybe I should treat it like a closed root pass and use a back-and-forth V motion, dipping deep into the bevel each time? Easy to say, harder to do. Attached Images
Reply:Don't get your feet under whatever you're picking with those hooks!REAL TRUCKS DON'T HAVE SPARK PLUGS
Reply:Using a different rod isn't the best solution to poor prep. Granted there are times when you have no choice, but that shouldn't be the primary reason to go with 6010/11. Good prep leads to good welds.Honestly the welds could look a lot better. I'd question if they would hold up to the abuse most of the operators I know would put them thru. Going over bad welds with more material seldom "fixes" the problem. If nothing else, I'd strongly suggest hitting all those welds with a grinder and wire wheel before you tried to weld over them if the slag I see is any indication, if not simply grinding out the whole weld and redoing them.As far asthe bevel or round part of the tube, that's where practice comes into play. Yes a V motion might help, but I'd run a straight stringer with almost no motion myself.Your beads are very erratic and I see signs in pict 3 that you were going way too fast, especially in the weld on the right side. Slow down and let the puddle build. Undercut can come from many things, but often it's from not pausing long enough for the puddle to catch up to the arc and allow it to fill.It's usually most visible when my students get to vertical and start trying to do fillets. If you don't pause at the sides to let it fill, you get tons of undercut. I try and tell the students to watch the arc and the puddle and see if they can't pick up when the puddle catches up to the arc when I run a very exaggerated weave. It's easier to show with mig than stick because of the lack of slag, so some times I have to show stick guys this with mig if they haven't yet learned to separate what they see that's slag from the molten material. Same thing applies in other positions, but it's some times a bit harder to see.Don't be ashamed you posted these up. That's how you go about learning and many of us are here to help..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Nice job! (Criticism always helps for a person to see their mistakes and improve)Though some people don't always like it.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWUsing a different rod isn't the best solution to poor prep. Granted there are times when you have no choice, but that shouldn't be the primary reason to go with 6010/11. Good prep leads to good welds.
Reply:Originally Posted by joshuabardwellIt's true. But I had already tacked down the piece, and the grinder was all the way over in the barn. WHIIIIINE.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWOne issue related to not pausing long enough at the sides is that many newer students haven't yet learned to read the puddle.
Reply:That's a good start. Now you just have to keep practicing until you pick up the little subtle clues that tell you what is going on.It's a bit easier with mig and tig where you can directly see the puddle and the surrounding material. Stick gives you a much smaller "window" to look thru before the slag pulls the curtain closed behind you and hides what was happening. You will have to try and correlate what you saw during the weld, with the good and bad sections of the completed weld later.If round edges of tube and bevels on filets are giving you issues, obviously that's where you concentrate your practice. Remember you don't need to fill everything 100% in one pass. It's certainly possible, but some times it can cause more headaches then it's worth. On "production" pieces work with you strengths. Go with the rod you run best even if another rod is "technically" better. I'd rather see a beautiful textbook 6013 or 6011 weld in many cases than a super crappy 8018 weld that's "supposedly" better. Same goes with weld position. If you can't do horizontal or vertical welds, flip the bucket if possible and weld in the flat. It's not really "cheating", in real production they often go thru the trouble to make elaborate jigs to position huge pieces for easier welding. I'm not saying don't bother trying to run vertical, only if you know your skills are weak, and it's an important weld, work with your strengths. Save "learning" for projects that really don't matter. When you come up with a little do dad where it doesn't matter how it's welded, then might be the time to flip it and weld it all vertical or overhead simply for practice even if it is harder to do.Last is to make sure you are comfortable and well supported while welding if at all possible. You have a machine. Set the bucket on sawhorses or blocks so it allows you to work at a comfortable level. Why bother to work on the ground if you don't have to? Once you are comfortable welding and making good welds, you'll find it's easier to work in awkward positions as time goes on..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Well, thanks to y'all's "gentle" feedback, I have started going back and grinding out and re-doing all the welds. Because the metal is now properly clean, I have been able to use 7018 with the results I expect. You may notice that I went a little bit overboard on the hooks trying to make sure I got good fill. Of them, I think the best looking one is IMG1209. On IMG1212, the bead wanders because I was welding over the ground-out remains of another bead for the first few inches, then I settled back down into the fillet.As always, any feedback is welcome. Attached Images
Reply:More photos. IMG1219 shows, ah... just a little undercut. IMG1220 is the worst bead of this batch, I think. I was getting to the end of the rod and my rod angle and travel speed went off the rails. Attached Images
Reply:Are you left handed?.No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWAre you left handed?
Reply:... oh,and for what it's worth, when I ground the beads out, I looked for porosity and slag inclusions. Most of the lap joints didn't seem to have any slag, but the hooks were a real mess.
Reply:DSW,I just wanted to comment on your evaluation of joshua's welding job on the bucket.  I thought you went through the problem areas without being condesending, negatively critical or condeming.  You gave him constructive ideas on alternative ways to get the welding accomplished.  I'm saying this not to brown-nose but share my views.  I am not an experienced welder, just a beginner, so I can't judge your methods, but I think this kind of walk-through to help someone is very constructive.
Reply:Originally Posted by shortfuseDSW,I just wanted to comment on your evaluation of joshua's welding job on the bucket.  I thought you went through the problem areas without being condesending, negatively critical or condeming.  You gave him constructive ideas on alternative ways to get the welding accomplished.  I'm saying this not to brown-nose but share my views.  I am not an experienced welder, just a beginner, so I can't judge your methods, but I think this kind of walk-through to help someone is very constructive.
Reply:Don't forget the most important part... PaintMiller thunderbolt 250Decastar 135ERecovering tool-o-holic ESAB OAI have been interested or involved in Electrical, Fire Alarm, Auto, Marine, Welding, Electronics ETC to name a just a few. So YES you can own too many tools.
Reply:Bucket hooks are one of the most useful projects.   I waited way too many years until I started welding.   The bucket hooks are probably my most useful project!  Ken
Reply:You should rally get to weld better before doing this type of projectI use my hooks all the time there indispensable But i know mine are not going to break or a weld fail till i'm long gone from this world and my kubota tooPractice  practice....it's the only way you learn but having good teachers help immensely...but there is still a lot you will have to learn through experienceBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11Practice  practice....it's the only way you learn but having good teachers help immensely...but there is still a lot you will have to learn through experience
Reply:Originally Posted by k45I keep hearing "practice, practice, practice."   I disagree.   Practicing the wrong thing time and again won't make one better.   Having teachers, either in a class or useful critiquing here, is critical IMO.
Reply:Originally Posted by k45I keep hearing "practice, practice, practice."   I disagree.   Practicing the wrong thing time and again won't make one better.   Having teachers, either in a class or useful critiquing here, is critical IMO.My two cents, FWIW.
Reply:I fully agree that DSW is a great instructor on this forum, really took his time and explained everything to me when I posted my first stick beads. I'm gathering resources for my first project now so I look forward to his review/opinion again in the future!
Reply:Having someone teach you the right way is what is needed when learning basics and practicing is what is necessary to perfect your technique Once you have those down you can adapt to the changes that come with every job you do because nothing is textbook but the basics are the base of all   The joint is the same type joint the rod is the same type rod  but metal is not always the same and the machine maybe different Fit up makes a big difference all those variables some big some small If you have the basics down the practice and experience you learn allows you to adapt and over come the variables Plus in this biz you never stop learning always something new Backed my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWAny project where someones safety might be endangered isn't a project that should be taken on until at least a minimum level of competency is obtained. Until then, concentrate on projects that are within the scope of you abilities.
Reply:one of the things i see in your pictures is long arcing.  long arcing will cause undercut, but the tell tell sign is the buck shot you have left next to your beads.  those come form three things primarily.  first and most common is long arcing.  second is too high of amps, and third is too flat of a rod angle and your arc force is splashing the puddle.Long arcing is the most common of these.  If you are running too hot and have everything else done right then you have to be REALLY hot to throw buckshot.  if you are laying your rod too flat then you will see other signs in the puddle.If you still have the bucket,  grind them out and reweld.  there is not shame in rework.  some of the most experienced guys have rework.  That is why they invented the gouge.Not seeing the whole thing in person it's a tough call. Part of me isn't quite sure about the plate to bucket design and attachment. Porosity in the hooks would give me some concern also if you didn't get it all out 1st time around. I'd rate this one of those borderline projects that falls in the medium to advanced category. We used to have chain hooks on the bucket of our Kubota. I'm betting the current welds probably would have held up to what that machine could put out. It really didn't have a lot of snot in the loader. Mostly the hooks allowed you to lift light weigh objects or secure things in the bucket so they didn't fall out. That said on our trackloader or backhoe, these wouldn't have lasted very long. With a Bobcat, I'd say it falls some where in between. I have seen the damage a snapped chain will do under tension and it's nothing to be complacent about. I can easily see situations where someone could get  seriously hurt if things are used to the max and something lets go or if a sudden shock load was applied. Since I come from a construction back ground where this sort of thing is typical, I would be inclined to err on the side of caution.Your last welds clearly show improvement over the 1st set I saw. There's still a need to work on a few things and practice will help you improve. I'll try later to pull up the picts on the other computer and point out a few things I see.Note that the comments above about " Learning" projects wasn't aimed directly at you, only in reference to the "practice" comments K 45 made..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI'd rate this one of those borderline projects that falls in the medium to advanced category. We used to have chain hooks on the bucket of our Kubota. I'm betting the current welds probably would have held up to what that machine could put out. It really didn't have a lot of snot in the loader. With a Bobcat, I'd say it falls some where in between.
Reply:Originally Posted by Scott Youngone of the things i see in your pictures is long arcing.  long arcing will cause undercut, but the tell tell sign is the buck shot you have left next to your beads.
Reply:2nd pic top bead appears to be cold... I cant offer up much more than that. keep at it!
Reply:Originally Posted by camjeep32nd pic top bead appears to be cold... I cant offer up much more than that. keep at it!
Reply:Much better. I'm betting in pict 1 you posted slag either peeled itself off or just flaked right off with almost no effort. Very nice weld. only minor issue is that it looks like you have a bit more weld on the bottom than the top. Fillets should be a 45 deg angle when viewed from the side. Equal amounts top and bottom and the center reinforcement just slightly above the line drawn between the two toes usually.2nd pict top bead didn't wash into the lower bead as well as it should. Looks like you might have tuned the amps down on this one and were running a bit cold compared to the lower one. Lower one was better, but just a bit rushed in a few spots. Could have slowed down just a touch. Edit: I wrote the this before I went to class tonight. If you didn't change the amps, then chances are you jammed the rod in tighter and really shortened up the arc. I did this post a while back for Rick V that shows the results of changing arc length with 7018 stick. You might find some of it helpful.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=58537Last pict. Not bad, but just slightly rushed from the slight elongation of the ripples. Nice job getting the toes to all wash in well top and bottom with little to no undercut. I also see what looks like slag embedded in the root of this bead at the end of the weld on the left. Not sure if that is because you were burring slag thru the weld, or if it's due to trying to stop and not burn off the corner from the pict.Thoughts for the future... In the last pict, you should have probably wrapped the corner slightly to tie the two beads together. Also I'm wondering about something I' think I'm seeing in the last pict. I see a bead on the right "side" of the plate, and a bead on the end, but no bead on the left side. Is this taken before you ran a bead on the left, but after you ground out the old bead or is there no bead on the left side at all?Reason I ask is that if I understand how the hooks are set correctly, the hooks should be open on the left side in that pict. if so under load they would want to peel that plate open on the unwelded side as that part would want to go into tension when a load is applied. The right side would go into compression and the weld wouldn't be as critical as on the "open" side of the hook..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:What machine are you using? At 130 amps you should have filled between the previous bead and burned into the top edge of the plate more in the 2nd pic.  Earlier you stated that you run 7018 as a contact rod but there should be an arc gap and maybe a little ocsillation.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWMuch better. I'm betting in pict 1 you posted slag either peeled itself off or just flaked right off with almost no effort.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jay OWhat machine are you using? At 130 amps you should have filled between the previous bead and burned into the top edge of the plate more in the 2nd pic.  Earlier you stated that you run 7018 as a contact rod but there should be an arc gap and maybe a little ocsillation.
Reply:Originally Posted by joshuabardwellWOO HOO.  Yup. I was trying to get from bead to bead without letting the slag set on the end of the rod, so I did them all before cleaning any of them, and by the time I came back around, a lot of them had peeled themselves.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWWhen the slag peels itself off it's telling you your welds were very close to the right settings, arc length travel speed etc. Try and clearly visualize what you did and saw when you get these welds.
Reply:Originally Posted by joshuabardwellWhen the welds are good, the puddle looks "right". And when they're bad, it looks wrong, but I'm not always sure what caused it to go wrong. Sometimes I'll be halfway through a weld, with a nice round puddle, the size I think it should be, working my way along, and all of the sudden the puddle falls apart and I have no idea why, because I think I was doing exactly the same thing I did on the last one that turned out good.
Reply:Positioning so that you can easily move is everything.  I built a triple axle trailer just using an AC stick welder.  I layed the project out in my parents drive way and flat welded the frame together on top.  Then I tipped the frame up in the air and flat welded the sides I could then tipped it the other way and welded some more and finally with my dad help tipped the frame upside down to get the underside.  The trailer is seven foot six wide and twelve feet long.  It pulls great and we have hauled up to four tons on it.I set it up to trail empty on the center axle and then ride on the other axles as it was progressively loaded.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWAre you left handed?
Reply:One thing I suggest, not now but in the very near future. Get into the habit of wrapping your corners! When I first started out I worked for a guy who would just have screaming fits when ever he seen something like this. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPOne thing I suggest, not now but in the very near future. Get into the habit of wrapping your corners! When I first started out I worked for a guy who would just have screaming fits when ever he seen something like this.
Reply:Originally Posted by joshuabardwellis this a structural thing, or is it just a matter of style and "good practice"?
Reply:I'm a newbie (so what do I know) but I'd be happy, at this point, if my beads looked that good.  Looks like you had a very good idea.  I just bought a new John Deere 4105 and had them weld on (before I started welding) three hooks to the front-end loader (bucket).  It seems to work very well, but yours looks "much" stronger.You can "Never": have too many Hobbies...Lincoln Electric AC-225 230V Stick Welder, 225 Amp, Model # K1170Lincoln Electric 120-Volt Flux-Cored Wire Feed Welder, Model #: K2479-1(2) Lincoln Electric Port-A-Torch Kits, Model #KH776
Reply:Originally Posted by texasboy112I'm a newbie (so what do I know) but I'd be happy, at this point, if my beads looked that good.  Looks like you had a very good idea.  I just bought a new John Deere 4105 and had them weld on (before I started welding) three hooks to the front-end loader (bucket).  It seems to work very well, but yours looks "much" stronger.
Reply:Here's the finished job, folks. Don't hate on the paint job--it's a bucket; it's going to get beat to heck anyway.One thing that I wish was different is, the receiver tube is cocked slightly around the "roll" axis because I welded one side fully before welding the other and the weld pulled it over. I had hoped that the tacks would prevent that, but it seems they didn't. Actually, I'm not 100% sure that's true. I put one tack in the left side, then the right side, then the left side, then the right, but it turned out that the second tack didn't really connect well, so it's possible both left-hand tacks went in before both right-hand tacks, and it was crooked when I did the final weld-up.I am familiar with the technique of setting the pieces a few degrees out of true, so the weld pulls them back into true. I did that with the hooks, for example. I can't really picture how I could have accomplished that with the receiver tube, though.The only thing I can think of is if I maybe had a shim, like a screwdriver tip, inserted underneath the left side of the tube, maybe at the front and back, then welded a few inches in the middle, then quickly removed the shims as the weld cooled. Alternatively, maybe an approach would have been to weld the receiver tube onto the reinforcing plate on the bench, and clamp the heck out of it, then weld the reinforcing plate onto the bucket. I couldn't really clamp it once it was on the bucket, with the clamps I've got.I don't know. How would y'all have done it?(BTW, I say, "I wish it was different," but I don't wish it enough to cut the whole thing off and do it again. It's not going to affect the functionality in any way that I can imagine, so I'm going to let it go and move on to the next thing.) Attached ImagesLast edited by joshuabardwell; 12-15-2012 at 03:27 PM.
Reply:Next time turn your welder up some and make the tacks hot, take enough time to establish a puddle and get penetration into both pieces you are welding.  Your tacks probably broke and allowed the weld to pull and open the gap on the other side of the tube.  Once you have some solid tacks, turn your welder back down to your normal welding current and now you can go to town on the welding, even so you should alternate welding from side to side and end to end so you minimize distortion.  Backstepping your welding beads will also help to keep distortion minimised."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:Originally Posted by noriteNext time turn your welder up some and make the tacks hot, take enough time to establish a puddle and get penetration into both pieces you are welding.  Your tacks probably broke and allowed the weld to pull and open the gap on the other side of the tube.
Reply:Originally Posted by joshuabardwellThanks. I'll do that. So, with solid tacks, I can expect the pieces to stay true, and only worry about pulling when I'm doing the tacking?
Reply:I just want to say, as this thread is wrapping up, that I really appreciate everybody's comments and feedback, and especially DSW.