Oxygen/Acetylene kit

admin

Hey everyone,I am brand new to welding/brazing/cutting and new to the forum.  A little about me, I've grown up with tools and am good around them.  Worked construction, finish carpentry and have made some nice pieces of furniture.  In those fields, I am a very careful person, never careless or complacent around tools and am always paying attention to safety.Well, I've recently wanted to start brazing (all projects will be on the small side) and I purchased an Oxygen/Acetylene kit.  Which can be seen here:http://www.ameriflame.net/index.php/.../ti350t-detail  (the company website)http://www.amazon.com/Ameriflame-TI3.../dp/B0049VSV5C  (on Amazon)I bought it from a local tool supply shop and the manager who sold it to me was quite informative and gave me a few minute spiel on how dangerous they can be (which I was actually quite appreciate of).  This resulted in me doing some research and watching some professionally made videos on YouTube.  This has progressed to me wanting to get some real world feedback from you guys on this forum.My research so far has basically highlighted the following for safety:-Acetylene tank has to be upright for 24 hours before use;-Pressure/Leak test to be conducted after hooking up regulators/hose/torch end;-Always slowly turn on Oxygen and Acetylene tanks;-Always bleed lines prior to lighting;-Always turn Acetylene on first and light ASAP with a striker, then Oxygen on;-Always turn Oxygen off first, then Acetylene;-Never use Acetylene over 15 PSI;-Keep tip away from work to prevent a clog which could lead to a flashback;-When work is complete, bleed lines and shut off all valves (torch, regulators and tank)-Keep any petroleum products away from Oxygen to prevent a potential explosion.The kit comes with check valves on the torch.  I purchased regulator flashback arrestors for this kit.  They can be seen here:http://www.globalindustrial.ca/p/too...flash-arrestorI haven't even touched this kit yet.  Nothing is assembled, however the tanks have been filled.  I'm just trying to make sure I am well informed before I use it.  I'm not scared of using this kit but because I don't have a background with using any sort of welding device, I just want to be extra cautious.  I will be using this setup at home (probably in my garage with the door fully open to ensure maximum ventilation).  The setup is being stored and locked in my garden shed (detached from the house) and chained to the wall to prevent any sort of accidental tip over.  The garden shed has excellent ventilation.Knowing all this, does anybody have some advice for me? Any other safety precautions? For an example, I've heard flashback arrestors can change the pressure in the lines which in itself could cause a problem?  I would appreciate any advice/input from anyone willing to spend their time to respond.Cheers,AdamLast edited by cormier33; 05-17-2014 at 11:54 PM.
Reply:There are folks here with much more in-depth information that will get back to you soon, but for now I'd like to add to your safety list "never stand in front of regulators when turning them on". If there is gas in the regulator for some reason and you open the tank valve it can cause the T-handle to fly off the regular with force. It's good to be cautious but once you learn the ropes, O/A welding/brazing/cutting is a lot of fun . Your little unit is perfect for brazing, but if you find yourself doing any cutting you will want some bigger tanks. Welcome to the forum!
Reply:cormier33I am a very careful person, never careless or complacent . . .
Reply:You are going to find those cylinders limiting. An MC size cylinder of acetylene is about 10 cf of gas. The maximum withdrawal rate of acetylene is 1/7th the volume of the cylinder per hour ( newer suggested listings go as low as 1/10th the volume). Almost every tip including the smallest sizes exceeds that rate. That means you are extremely limited in how long you can run even the smallest tips.These kits are fine if you need to cut one or two bolts, heat up a small piece with a standard welding tip, do small brazing, soldering or welding projects, but if you are serious about doing any "real" work, you will need to look into at least a bigger acetylene cylinder.If you take a look at this chart, you'll see the scfh ( cubic feet per hour) of acetylene listed on the far right side. You will note that even the smallest tip uses 1 to 2 cf per hour. 2 cf would equate to  1/5th the volume of gas in that cylinder and exceeds the 1/7th rule for withdrawal. When you exceed this, you pull acetone out of the cylinder. This can cause two things, #1, it can damage the acetylene regs rubber internal parts, and #2, if you withdraw too much acetone from the cylinder, the acetylene can become unstable.http://dennisalbert.com/Welding/WeldingTipGuide.htm.No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Thanks everyone for the replies.  Please keep them coming.  DSW, thanks for the information.  It is quite disheartening to hear about that (nothing to do with your reply, more the limitations and lack of detail on the kit).  I mean, I am only wanting to braze, so would be using the smallest brazing tip available with the set and I can't even use it? At this point, I am thinking about trying to return the kit to the store I bought it from.  Its still all in its packaging but the tanks were filled by them when I purchased it.  So...I guess I wouldn't have any luck with the return? Maybe if I explain to them that it can't even be used as it is sold.
Reply:Those little outfits can come in handy , however , the contains of those tanks does not last long as stated. I hope they will accept your return. The 135 cf Acetylene Cylinder is a handy size and a 125 or 150 cf oxygen is nice.
Reply:one other precaution you may have over looked is fire prevention. be aware of how far the sparks are going to travel AND what material is in the area that could be flammable/explosive. be prepared for the worst; have a fire extinguisher and or hose handy. does your local fire dept require you to have a cert. of fitness to operate a torch?i.u.o.e. # 15queens, ny and sunny fla
Reply:The unit can be used. It just has limitations. Brazing doesn't require the gas flow say cutting or heating with a big rosebud does. You certainly won't be able to braze say large pieces of 1/4" plate together with that little torch set. However small sculptures out of 1/4" rod is certainly doable as long as you keep the withdrawal rate in mind. You won't be able to work nonstop for an hour. A few brazed joints and then stop while you prep and the cylinder "recovers" will be fine. Same goes with cutting using a small tip.  Cut or heat one or two medium bolts, then take a break while the cylinder recovers. Stick with the smallest tip and keep flow rates down and you will be fine.Those kits are really  for portability. They are for the guy who needs to take a torch or small set to the job. Things like HVAC techs who need to braze or solder AC fittings. The mechanic doing field repairs who needs to free a stuck bolt on occasion or maybe cut off a damaged piece of farm machinery. They are small and compact enough not to take up a ton of room in the side box of a truck, yet always be there when you need them. They also work well for the auto enthusiast who is more into cars than he is about doing welding projects.Artists using small micro torches doing wire sculpture or jewelry work don't need a lot of heat. Those tiny torches instead give them precision. For that sort of use, your torch is on the large side for that sort of work, but you can always change it later if that is what you plan to be doing.Also you can always upgrade to larger cylinders at a later point. Most places allow you to simply pay the difference between cylinder costs as well as gas when exchanging to upgrade. The O2 fitting on the cylinder is the same. The one on the acetylene cylinder will give you a few minor "issues". The MC valve is a different style from the ones used on the next size up, a 40 cf "B" cylinder. Those are both different from the two different styles typically used on larger acetylene cylinders. However all is not lost. They sell adapters that you can use to allow different acetylene regs to be used on other sizes of acetylene cylinders. They are a bit clunky, and you have to remember to keep the adapter with the reg, and not send it in with the cylinder by accident when you swap them out, but they are workable. I have an adapter that will allow my to hook up my small B sized air acetylene plumbers torch to my bigger 75 cf acetylene cylinder in a pinch, should I run out of acetylene and not be able to get it filled right away.One other thing to keep in mind is that gas is cheaper in larger volumes per cf. I checked recently what it would cost to get my little MC cylinder filled as well as my normal B cylinder filled that I use for soldering pipes. It would have cost me about $5 less to fill the MC vs the B cylinder, so for about 1/6th the cost extra, I got 4 times the gas... So my MC cylinder stayed empty, and I simply filled the B unit I always use. I was curious since with the MC one I could keep the small soldering set on the truck full time, vs only loading up the B set when I need to do pluming jobs that require soldering. It's been a while since I needed to get my 75 cf cylinders filled, but my guess is they probably don't cost all that much more than the 40 cf B ones do.Even with my bigger 75 cf acetylene set that I use for cutting, I have to keep the withdrawal rate in mind. I can't simply just cut up anything I want nonstop, though I can do more than that small set can. If I want to use a small rosebud for heating large areas, I really run into issues as even the smallest of those uses a lot more than my set can provide. I just have to limit myself on how much I use the torch at any one time, and plan things out so I'm not wasting time while the torch is lit. The other down side is my 75 cf acetylene cylinder alone is probably twice the size/weight of your little kit. Mine is "portable" if you have it on a cart, but dragging it out to a job requires I pull the cylinders off the cart, load them separately in the truck and strap them in well. Then I either need to work within hose reach of the truck, or haul the cart along and assemble everything back on the cart when I get there, even if I only need to torch one bolt on a gate or heat and bend one small thing.Last edited by DSW; 05-19-2014 at 08:50 AM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:-Always turn Oxygen off first, then Acetylene;
Reply:Originally Posted by 4956Wrong.  You always shut the fuel gas to a torch off first.
Reply:Thanks DSW for the very detailed response.  I appreciate that.  I like how you explain that I just need down time in between work to let the tanks cool.  That would actually be quite easy for me to do but it brings up a question.  Everytime I shut off the torch valves in between "quick tank cool down periods" (for lack of a better term) before I light them up would I have to purge or bleed them again? Or simply ensuring that when I turn the acetylene back on, I wait a second prior to striking the gas to ensure the acetylene has blown out any oxygen that may have been lingering in the torch handle from when I shut it off?4956, thanks for your input.  Being a total newbie, I've seen a bit of both.  Last I heard was that at least if you shut the oxygen off first, the fuel gas is less harmful because you've taken care of removing the "oxygen" out of the fire triangle (grant it, there is oxygen in the air outside the torch).  Again, I am looking for advice.  So, I'm just trying to find the best way to safely operate.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWDepends. Victor and Harris suggest turning the O2 off 1st.  Smith suggests turning off the fuel 1st.
Reply:Here's a little more reading on the subject of torch use.  http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...-cutting-torchThere are other links in That link, so check them out too.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWDepends. Victor and Harris suggest turning the O2 off 1st.  Smith suggests turning off the fuel 1st.
Reply:My torch is made by "Ameriflame" or "Uniweld" if you prefer. I was just going over the instructions for shut down and they too recommend shutting oxygen off first, citing this for the reason: "shutting the fuel gas/acetylene first can cause backfire."Again, I don't have experience, just advising what my manual said for this manufacturer.
Reply:Sometimes reading the manual or directions for ANYTHING can help.
Reply:look at a website called "Tinman" (TM Technology) ..he's an excellent source of tools and knowledge in metalworking inckluding torchwork..there is a description on hss site of how to light and adjust a torch without using gauges that will be very helpful..the combination of check valve and arrestor is going tomean you have to set the regulators higher than book says to get the necessary flow at the torch tip..Last edited by weldbead; 05-19-2014 at 07:08 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by cormier33My torch is made by "Ameriflame" or "Uniweld" if you prefer. I was just going over the instructions for shut down and they too recommend shutting oxygen off first, citing this for the reason: "shutting the fuel gas/acetylene first can cause backfire."Again, I don't have experience, just advising what my manual said for this manufacturer.
Reply:Originally Posted by docwelderi hate inhaling those sooty black floaters that always seem to happen when you turn the oxygen off first.
Reply:Thanks for all the responses guys.  I bought a 0 tip and will be looking at a 000 or 00 to help a bit more with the 1/7th rule.Strange thing is, I called the store that I bought my kit from.  They advised its all CSA approved, it wasn't just piece-mealed together and it would never become unstable/dangerous as long as I didn't surpass 15psi acetylene.....I explained to him what I learned from the forums and he said there is no concern, "the newer bottles have a space at the bottom" that prevents this from occurring? Or something to that effect.....I found it strange considering all the other precautions he had told me about and he said there is no concerns about this kit at all regarding that?Anyway, I've got a 0 tip and checked the manufacturers recommendation which said 2-4 PSI Oxy/Ace pressure.  If I keep it at 2, and use it in short spurts I should be fine until I get my hands on a 00.  Again, I'm only brazing and only 1/8 rod at that when I get started here.
Reply:I should clarify my last post....I am more wondering why it appears the manager would be disregarding the 1/7 CFH rule when giving me that advice? I am not at all disregarding that safety rule.
Reply:I've seen many guys who were completely ignorant of the 1/7th rule. Even guys who work in the industry and should know something this basic. My guess would go to ignorance having seen the quality of many sales people today in stores.I've seen plenty of guys who simply ignore it. Those are the same sort of people who will hold a jar full of gas in front of their face with smoking too... Stupid comes to mind... They never had an accident, so obviously everyone else must be mistaken about the dangers.Acetylene becomes unstable when you remove the acetone from the cylinder. That happens when you try to pull more acetylene  from the cylinder than it can "recover". While exceeding the 1/7th rule by a small bit won't cause the cylinder to instantly explode, draw enough off acetone and you can have issues. Also the acetone is very hard on the rubber components of a reg. Abuse it this way and you'll reduce the life of the reg and need to get a new one or have it rebuilt a lot sooner than if you took care of it..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan