Walking the cup pics

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Well I've been practicing walking the cup.  Only about 2 hours doing it. And I came across something that is standing out. On the pic below, I was moving from right to left on some 4.5" Pipe sch40 with a 1/4" plate on the side. running 1/16 electrode at 150-160amps with 1/8" filler. Lincoln 185 precision   I notice the bead look when I first start then towards the end it gets more of a weave look. It is a 3" run.  I had quite a few to do of these and I;ll check them all to see if they turned out this way, but my question is why did it start to come out like that towards the end of my run. My guess, I was getting off the pedal and putting less heat giving more time to cool off. Any suggestions?Last edited by LMironworks; 06-23-2012 at 03:11 AM.
Reply:Am I seeing an undercut at the start?  Looks like you reduced the heat to me.  I'd say you slowed down and found your rhythm.
Reply:That's what it looks like but it comes out better with a straight bead underneeth..Do a stack of dimes weld first in the joint then go over it....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Thank you for information. As for the undercut I;ll double check the welds this morning and confirm this. I;ll get some more pictures up and running with a lower heat setting.
Reply:My question would be is why are you using a 1/16" tungsten (vs say a 3/32") at 150-160A?Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIMy question would be is why are you using a 1/16" tungsten (vs say a 3/32") at 150-160A?
Reply:if you  move the torch forward in a straight line, your puddles will be ina  straight line...if you move the torch forward in a zigzag , you will get a weave...its you doing it...and fwiw i use 3/32 tungsten for steel from 16 ga to 3/8 inch thick...as you move along theres heat buildup, cut heat back as you go..
Reply:My "second" question would be is why do you feel it necessary to "walk the cup" on a straightforward tig bead?  It's not "pipe welding" we're looking at here.  You're simply welding a plate to the "side" of pipe.There's a time and place for "walking the cup", but this isn't one of them.  Frankly, it sounds like you're using WTC as a crutch to compensate for a lack of tig proficiency.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:A little quick on the draw Sundown.  The OP is posting shots of walking the cup.  You've not even seen an example of his freehand TIG technique, and you're denegrating his skills.Not to put words in the OP's mouth, but perhaps he's walking the cup in order to learn how?  Maybe it's just for the aesthetics of it?  Much like that stack of dimes appearance that MIG welders aspire to; without much good reason I might add.In any case, walking the cup is just another means of depositing a TIG bead.  It's as appropriate as a freehand TIG bead is in this circumstance, no more no less.  The important thing is that the fusion of weld into base metal is good and that the bead is sound, with the appropriate profile.  Walking the cup is slower than freehanding the bead, but it also lessens the chances of dipping the tungsten into the weld pool and leaving a defect behind.  It also keeps the arc length much more consistent, tends to make it easier to hold a short arc, and keeps the shielding gas coverage more consistent.As for the OP's original question, that change in appearance is a sign that you altered speed, filler metal addition, torch angle, amperage, or some other parameter as you progressed along the joint.  At a guess, I'd say you backed off on the heat to an appropriate level and increased the width of the weaving or walking motion you were using.   Like someone else said, you found that sweet spot.  The start of your bead sure looks undercut; a sign of too long an arc, too much heat, or contaminated tungsten.Where you laying the wire into the joint and walking over top of the wire, or were you dipping the filler rod into the weld pool?  Lay wire is easier, but can produce porosity at the root if the filler is too large, torch angle is wrong, or heat input is too low.  Dipping the wire into the pool as you weave along is better, but takes more skill to avoid accidentally touching the filler rod to the tungsten.I'll jump on the band wagon and also say you should be using 3/32" tungsten.   I like 3/32 or 1/8" filler rod, but lots of others prefer 1/16" rod for this sort of work.  Whatever suits your personal style is best. Originally Posted by SundownIIIMy "second" question would be is why do you feel it necessary to "walk the cup" on a straightforward tig bead?  It's not "pipe welding" we're looking at here.  You're simply welding a plate to the "side" of pipe.There's a time and place for "walking the cup", but this isn't one of them.  Frankly, it sounds like you're using WTC as a crutch to compensate for a lack of tig proficiency.
Reply:He's learning. The easiest way to start (IMHO) is to get the feel for the movement in a simple T joint. Then he could move on to pipe. He made it easier by giving a larger angle to work with the pipe/plate combo. He just has no consistency with his movement, but he'll get there. Gotta start somewhere!
Reply:Originally Posted by LMironworksWell I've been practicing walking the cup.  And I came across something that is standing out.  I notice the bead look when I first start then towards the end it gets more of a weave look... my question is why did it start to come out like that towards the end of my run. Any suggestions?
Reply:A_Dab,Have to disagree on a couple of your points:The OP's comment that "I had quite a few of these to do" tells me that they wern't "for practice".Heat control is heat control, whether you're freehanding or walking the cup.  Lack of heat control is very apparent in the photos shown.I also disagree that walking the cup is "just another method of depositing filler".  Actually, it's a rather specialized method designed for a specific purpose (welding pipe).  If he develops this as his "go to method", he'll run into problems if he moves to other material such as aluminum.  If you look closely at the photos, you'll see his "tracks" where the cup was in contact with the base metal.  Do that on aluminum and it will result in a weld bead that's unacceptable to many.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Thank you for the responses. To address the issue of using 1/16th electrode. Yes my mistake I should have swicthed to 3/32. I was practicing on some 1/8th thickness before I swicthed over to the pipe and plate. As for the WTC in this situation, I was merely practicing and not adjusting for my lack of skill. I had some scrap to mess with and this is what I had. Pieces of 1/4" plate and pipe. No laying of wire was done, but dipped to ensure the melting of the joint as I've seen  in the past with others laying wire will produce a nice cover. Lack of heat control is what it comes down to along with the too small of electrode is what  I am taking in. Definetly more practice. Here are some free hand tig welding done on a past project. I'm no the best but and nobody is perfect, but strive to do good in my work. Pardon the dust in the photos.
Reply:You really need to clean the metal better before you do anything else..Your results will be far better than what you are showing here..Other than that..Keep doing what you are doing.But clean the material better.There is no such thing as clean enough when it comes to tig....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Say sunDOWNER!!!, it looks like this is the last post I will be allowed here and I wanna say, I cant comment on your welds or advice because I havnt seen any, period. I have noticed that you have good typing skills. Is that from 50 years of taking dicktation?  My welds may suck but as I said Im a novice weldor but you will never be able to use an axe or hammer as good as me. See the pic. The trick is, you have to do it in one swing, you have to be fast and you gotta be at least as good as me to do this.BTW if anyone can use a 3phase vacuum pump (for plasma torch) or an 18hp WISCONSIN like the ones used on the SA 200 jr. Contact me at Insaneride@AOL Attached Images
Reply:Am I the only one who seems to think that his start is the half that is weaved? You can clearly see the little fisheye stop in the right corner of the picture.    I think you started out just fine, but got the metal hot and didn't weave your torch quite as much at the end. Try slowly letting off the pedal slightly as you notice the puddle getting wider. Ignore all the BS about why are you walking the cup. I am not a fan of walking the cup, its too slow for me, but its a good technique to know and you gotta learn somehow.  The first half (left of picture) looks very good. Just try to maintain the same size puddle and travel in your weave and you'll be fine.         DougLincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300, Lincoln ranger 8, Lincoln LN-25, Miller Sidekick (keeps rockin!), Oxy/Acy torch, Miller XMT-304 with a Miller 60 series wire feeder and high freq. box, Profax positioner 8" chuck, Aaronson 3500# positioner 15" chuck
Reply:Alls ya gotta do, is to take these guy's advice and try to make one weld better than the last. You'll "get it" in no time [Account Abandoned 8/8/16 Please Do Not Attempt Contact Or Expect A Reply]. See you on YouTube! -ChuckE2009
Reply:Thanks everyone for the pointers, everything well said and will be put to use. Fresh, that is what I though too after I was done, but I am positive I went right through and never left the pedal. Sundown hit it, I just need to have heat control.
Reply:LM,My post was not to criticize your weld.Obviously you wern't totally satisfied with the bead or you wouldn't have asked for help.  For the amount of time you've been tigging, you're doing fine.Guess some people think others should never be critical of something posted.  I could say, great weld but what would that accomplish.As far as the "walking the cup" I've just never been a big fan of the process for normal welding.  Some of that may be due to the amount of aluminum welding I do.  That hot cup will leave unacceptable marks on the base metal.  Besides that, there are just too many welds (outside corners, flat, etc) that don't lend themselves to WTC.If you study the background for walking the cup, you'll find that the process was developed for welding thicker wall pipe.  On the first pass, the tungsten is extended deep into the bevel.  As additional passes are added, the tungsten is adjusted to a "new depth" and often times a larger cup is used.  As has already been mentioned, it results in a slower process (as if tig wasn't slow enough already).One thing that you may try to get a handle on heat control is setting your amps on the machine at just what you think you're going to need to do the weld.  Then when you start, floor the pedal (so you're getting full machine setting) and control the bead with your dips and travel speed.  As the base metal heats up, you'll find yourself dipping more often and moving faster.  This is the way many field tiggers weld with engine drive welders and no remote controls.  Then, when they move back in the shop with remotes, the welding is a breeze and they realize how much control the remote affords.You've got most of the basics down already.  When you get to where you want to be, you'll know it even before you lift your hood.  You'll be just as relaxed at the end of the bead as you should have been when you started.  You'll see what I mean.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Thanks Sundown,  I take the advice from experts that have mastered the skill and apply the advice given to the best of abilities and move forward to better my skills.  I will work on  controlling heat and give the advice given a go at it with the full pedal for now on.
Reply:It all comes down to practice.   I probably have put down 100-200. X 5" beads on coupons in the last week or two just practicing my Aluminum TIG.   DSW, SundownIII, Zapster, ZTFab etc all posted up useful critique and I am improving because of it.   Plus threads like this one just add more tips and suggestions to my own welding.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:I read your post and the first thing that caught my eye was the 1/16" tungsten?   As mentioned that small tungsten can't provide the kind of flame front needed to walk the cup or anything else on a Pipe Joint or 1/4 " plate......The amp setting might be close but for a larger size tungsten......at least 3/32........I would probably use an 1/8just incase I needed to bump up the heat some......Give that a try and see if it helps..  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Originally Posted by freshintulsaAm I the only one who seems to think that his start is the half that is weaved? You can clearly see the little fisheye stop in the right corner of the picture.         Doug
Reply:Fair enough.I overlooked the OP's comment about having several of these to do. Paying work isn't the best place to practice something new.We'll have to agree to disagree about situations where walking the cup is appropriate.  I think a standard fillet weld is a fine place to walk the cup.  You can also do it on a flat butt joint; although I don't as a matter of preference.I agree that an outside corner isn't a good place to use WTC.  Also agree that the ceramic cup will score or gouge aluminum if a welder tries to walk the cup.   But within the scope of the original post, there were no outside corners or aluminum welds discussed. I never meant to imply that walking the cup was the only and best way to TIG weld.  But, it does produce a sound weld when done correctly; just like a freehand TIG bead.  Yes, it's slower than free handing a bead.  But it can give a welder (greater/better/more consistent) control over arc length. I find WTC less fatigueing to my hands and forearms than freehand TIG welding.  WTC does produce a bead appearance that is different and unique from most freehand welds.  From an artistic point of view, this might be preferable to a simple stack of dimes. Originally Posted by SundownIIIA_Dab,Have to disagree on a couple of your points:The OP's comment that "I had quite a few of these to do" tells me that they wern't "for practice".Heat control is heat control, whether you're freehanding or walking the cup.  Lack of heat control is very apparent in the photos shown.I also disagree that walking the cup is "just another method of depositing filler".  Actually, it's a rather specialized method designed for a specific purpose (welding pipe).  If he develops this as his "go to method", he'll run into problems if he moves to other material such as aluminum.  If you look closely at the photos, you'll see his "tracks" where the cup was in contact with the base metal.  Do that on aluminum and it will result in a weld bead that's unacceptable to many.
Reply:Originally Posted by 74hotrodThats what I saw as well. He was welding left to right and as the heat built up he seems to have lowered his heat and walked faster producing a smaller bead.Originally Posted by Mr. MooseI have to assume that the OP was better situated than I am to know which way he was welding.  He starts this thread saying "On the pic below, I was moving from right to left..."
Reply:Originally Posted by 74hotrodLook at the ripples and see which he was welding. Also he may have been looking onto the other side speaking oppsite of the way the pics came out.