Automotive welding surge protecters

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I do a lot of welding on vehicles.  On new models, removing a battery cable can create all kinds of issues with radios, security systems,  code and maintenance settings etc.  I have also seen vehicle ECM drivers blow from stray welding currents, even if the ground is close or on the welding area.  The welding surge protectors that hook to the car battery make no sense to me, if there is going to be damage from stray welding currents it will be before the battery in my opinion. Are these surge protectors worth it, or a gimmick? OTC sells theirs for about $50, it has 2 clamps and a little yellow box.  They don't usually make junk, and are well aware of vehicle electronics.  If it works it's worth the insurance, I just can't see hoe it could help.  Any opinions on these?
Reply:All the electronics in the vehicle are connected through the battery. If the battery is disconnected, the welding surge will only go through the vehicles electronics if there is a short somewhere. The surge protector when connected to the battery, would divert any voltage spikes through a ground instead of through the cars electronics. From what I can tell, the surge protector is connected to the battery and "opens up" to dissipate any voltage spikes. I'm sure it works very similarly to household surge protectors. The technology has been around for a while, I'm sure it works as stated. Plus it makes you look a lot more professional when you start hooking up fancy gadgets to your customers vehicles!John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:They make a tool that uses a 9volt battery and plugs into the lighter plug to keep power for the memory.
Reply:I've never understood the need for a car "surge protector."  IMHO, it's a gimmick.  A car battery acts like a capacitor anyway and connecting a welding clamp to a piece without disconnecting the battery shouldn't be an issue.  Of course someone will say "it is" an issue.    I've been to a few car accidents  more than once when I've seen downed high voltage power lines hit and arc on top of a vehicle.   The vehicles and all of the  electronics started right up and drove away (unless they were wrapped around a pole) after the power lines were safely removed.  The easiest way to avoid any problems if one is really worried about it, is to disconnect the battery, pure and simple.  When reconnecting, it's takes seconds to reset the clock and some radio channels.  In fact, most cars built after 2008 now have memories in the factory radios where one doesn't have to fix or reset anything, because it's all automatic.  Also, I've never seen an alarm not work right because a battery was disconnected and reconnected.  If that's the case, one must have bought a pretty $h!++y cheap @zzed alarm to begin with.Last edited by SuperArc; 06-16-2014 at 05:15 PM.Lincoln Power Mig 216Lincoln AC/DC-225/125Miller  625 X-Treme PlasmaMiller 211 Forney 95FI-A 301HF 91110Victor Journeyman O/PMilwaukee DaytonMakita  Baileigh NRA Life Member
Reply:Welding ECM damage is more common than most might think.  The cig lighter backup is pretty much obsolete on OBDII vehicles, they use a memory power saver that plugs into the diagnostic port.  But I don't see disconnecting a battery with either connected doing any good, as I assume those circuits are still live, just from a different power source.  Disconnecting batteries on new cars is a lot more than reseting certain easy items.  I've seen several chevy security systems that I was not able to reset even with $1500 scan tools.  There were manual reset procedures that failed to work after several tries. They had to go to shops with a Tech2 factory scan tool. There are many other with complicated relearn procedures.  Bottom line is it's safer to leave it connected, but I just can't see how the surge protector would actually do the job.
Reply:Well surge "suppressors" work on voltage. So they would have to clamp on a voltage higher than some predetermined level. What, maybe 14, 15, 16 ?? Then it would have to do what, fire short, fire to the frame, fire to the sky??  I dunno. That's only one tiny component of welding. There's the DC+, DC-, AC, harmonics & on-and-on issues.. I've got some sender somewhere that sends 2.5 volts DC back to the ECM sensor & somehow in some magical way (or at least that will be the accusation) my welding sends 13.5 volts back to that sensor in the ECM and cooks that section. What did this surge protector do for me?I doubt you're going to find any magic pill out there. Maybe a sugar pill that makes you feel better. I'm thinkin you weld or you don't weld. Pick your policy. Personally I wouldn't weld chit on a vehicle for the off the street public. Too flakey of a crowd. Contractors and/or equipment folks are a completely different mentality. They understand things happen. The soccer mom won't be convinced that the welding you did last week isn't the reason her car doesn't run today."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:I guess it's kind of an insurance policy to make the customer feel better as long as he's informed. I heard from another fire department of a transmission controller at the other end of the engine going out after a weld add on.  You would think the voltages would go just from the ground to the weld. But as one of my automotive electronics books say's: "electrons can be assholes"….
Reply:This ad kind of makes me wonder about the makers... "Argon Arc Welding" as the third method?? Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Why take the chance of not disconnecting the battery, a few minutes of setting radio/check/security back up is less to spend on an ECM. For over thirty years of welding on vehicles my check list is : Check for gas leaks/fumes, Disconnect the battery,  Unlock all doors /trunk/engine hood, check trunk and under seats,(more then once have I found shotgun shells under a seat or in a trunk)
Reply:Originally Posted by BrianCWhy take the chance of not disconnecting the battery, a few minutes of setting radio/check/security back up is less to spend on an ECM. For over thirty years of welding on vehicles my check list is : Check for gas leaks/fumes, Disconnect the battery,  Unlock all doors /trunk/engine hood, check trunk and under seats,(more then once have I found shotgun shells under a seat or in a trunk)
Reply:Originally Posted by BrianCWhy take the chance of not disconnecting the battery, a few minutes of setting radio/check/security back up is less to spend on an ECM. For over thirty years of welding on vehicles my check list is : Check for gas leaks/fumes, Disconnect the battery,  Unlock all doors /trunk/engine hood, check trunk and under seats,(more then once have I found shotgun shells under a seat or in a trunk)
Reply:I'm not sold yet on the concept, I don't know enough about the construction or how they work, but IIRC the one I saw on the Snap-On truck offered a performance guaranty of some sort. (I'll need to check into it more to verify that.) If so, that turns it into a pretty cheap insurance policy.I usually don't disconect the battery unless I have to... I seldom do much welding on cars, 90% of the welding I do is welding nuts to broken off exhaust studs. I've heard the horror stories as well, and I've heard them for both scenarios. In my opinion, the overall safety of the system is better with the battery connected. The battery is a very effective capacitor, and all the electronics have their own capacitors to soak up spikes. The only problem is that with modern cars, nothing really ever turns off... All the modules stay on line and could be corrupted by stray spikes. IMO hooking up a memory saver just disconnects one battery and hooks up a smaller one with less capacitance. Some cars can be a real pain to get back up and running after a battery disconnect... Particularly cars that nobody saved the radio code for, or customers that get grumpy if you lose all the radio presets, ect...I'm probably going to get one just so I can say I did it right if the unusual ever happens... If a customer is advised of the risk involved, you do your best to minimize the risk, and the unusual does happen, it won't come back on you.
Reply:This is my take on vehicle welding.The number one rule I live by; “Keep your work clamp close to where you are welding”.   Attaching the work clamp at a distant location may allow for a large voltage potential between electrical components; with or without the battery connected.      Body panels are not guaranteed to be electrically connected together.  i.e floor pan to fender.
Reply:LOL!The broken Zero-Turn is on the neighbors trailer connected to the neighbors 2008 Suburban!He needs the front axle rewelded to the ZTR center pivot!He said it will be easier to leave on trailer and weld right there!So as everything is hitched together, they are theoretically "One Vehicle".Do you weld or not weld?
Reply:Originally Posted by drujininLOL!The broken Zero-Turn is on the neighbors trailer connected to the neighbors 2008 Suburban!He needs the front axle rewelded to the ZTR center pivot!He said it will be easier to leave on trailer and weld right there!So as everything is hitched together, they are theoretically "One Vehicle".Do you weld or not weld?