Fluxcore vs Stick

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I was chatting with someone today about Fluxcore vs Stick welding. I took the position that there is really no reason to do stick when you can do Flux but then neither of us are pros. My reasoning is simple. With both flux and stick, you have post weld cleanup. Both flux and stick require a nearby can of antispatter if you dont want to "texture" the piece. Both can weld in all positions. Both can do thick material (with .45 my little 180hd can do 1/2" in a single pass!!) Both can be used outdoors easily. So in capabilities they are equal. So where fluxcore kills stick is in production speed. Being able to roll off a spool rather than switch electrodes will increase productivity. Also stick requires a good deal of skill in adjusting the rate of pushing the rod into the piece whereas with flux, my wire speed is constant, giving better consistency. So I couldn't think of a thing stick could do better than flux. Where am I wrong if at all?
Reply:I have an impact gun that can do everything my ratchet can do, only faster. So why have a ratchet?Can you (yourself) run a pipe weld with fluxcore? Can you buy a $200.00 fluxcore machine that is capable of unlimited thickness welds?Fluxcore is solid, it ain't goin' nowhere, but it cannot kill SMAW. How would you use fluxcore under water? There may be codes requiring one process over the other, and prints are designed so that the process may be stipulated by the engineer. Yes, there are similarities, and yet substantial differences in deposition rates. But stick is still the benchmark of my particular certification. To get a wire cert., requires a stick cert., first. Last edited by tanglediver; 10-22-2010 at 02:56 AM.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Not sure about other standards organizations, but under AWS you can get a D1.1, 1.3 or 1.8 wire cert without a already holding a stick cert.One area where stick is very useful, besides pipe, is on jobs where there is welding up high where a gun feeder can't reach and it's impractical to bring the feeder closer to the weld.For small jobs that require an electrode type you don't normally use, it is more cost effective to buy a small can rods and stick weld it than shell out for a whole roll of wire that you may not use again for who knows how long.  If the wire needed is a gas shielded fluxcore wire and you don't happen to have the gas needed to run it, it is further cost prohibitive to gas up for such a small job, versus using stick.I'm sure piping industry folks know what they're doing quite well, but on general construction jobs, I think the architects/engineers specify stick more out of ignorance than anything else.  Many project bosses I've talked to are just not aware that there are wires that meet the same requirements as the sticks.  Since they don't know about the wires, which ones to use for what and why, they can't specify them, so stick it is.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Stick is king because of its versatilityUA Local 598
Reply:Stick is lower maintenance.  Power source, leads, and clamps vs. power source, feeder (drive rolls, electronics, etc.), leads, whip, liner, contact tips, and gun.  Stick is more efficient.  After humping a feeder with a 12 inch spool of wire with 50' of leads, I would much rather roll out leads and burn a couple sticks for the broken bracket that only took 6 inches of weld to repair.Stick is more economical.  I can carry stainless, cast, nickel, p5, hypie, and lo hy without breaking the bank.  To purchase the same for wire I would have to purchase large spools and create a storage for the spools that wouldn't allow for them to ruin while they wait between jobs.  I hate rusty wire.
Reply:wire feeding, you cannot see the puddle . stick(and tig and o/a) let you see the puddle. and the puddle fascinates me. i sit for hours and burn rod . these days i am playing with my engine drive and the roar is wonderful. , my  ta185 may see much less use . in a factory production mode wirefeed  wins. and i respect the many talented people here who are wonderful wirefeed welders. to me it is a soul-less process ,an unsatisfying    forprofit tool of the corporations .
Reply:They both have there place. The LN-22, and LN-25 revolutionized the outside structural world in the 1970's.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:With stick you can get into places that you couldn't with a mig gun, by bending the electrodes or tacking them together to give you a longer reach.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldbeadwire feeding, you cannot see the puddle . stick(and tig and o/a) let you see the puddle. and the puddle fascinates me. i sit for hours and burn rod . these days i am playing with my engine drive and the roar is wonderful. , my  ta185 may see much less use . in a factory production mode wirefeed  wins. and i respect the many talented people here who are wonderful wirefeed welders. to me it is a soul-less process ,an unsatisfying    forprofit tool of the corporations .
Reply:Man I never have problems seeing the puddle with fluxcore and I am not a pro so I cant imagine a pro would have a prob with it. As someone said, change your viewing angle. Welding off-normal stuff with a couple of sticks rather than buying a whole spool is a good point. So is being able to get in silly awkward positions.
Reply:Originally Posted by yorzaxtI was chatting with someone today about Fluxcore vs Stick welding. I took the position that there is really no reason to do stick when you can do Flux but then neither of us are pros. My reasoning is simple. With both flux and stick, you have post weld cleanup. Both flux and stick require a nearby can of anti spatter if you don't want to "texture" the piece. Both can weld in all positions. Both can do thick material (with .45 my little 180hd can do 1/2" in a single pass!!) Both can be used outdoors easily. So in capabilities they are equal. So where flux-core kills stick is in production speed. Being able to roll off a spool rather than switch electrodes will increase productivity. Also stick requires a good deal of skill in adjusting the rate of pushing the rod into the piece whereas with flux, my wire speed is constant, giving better consistency. So I couldn't think of a thing stick could do better than flux. Where am I wrong if at all?
Reply:Originally Posted by weldbeadwire feeding, you cannot see the puddle . stick(and tig and o/a) let you see the puddle. and the puddle fascinates me. i sit for hours and burn rod . these days i am playing with my engine drive and the roar is wonderful. , my  ta185 may see much less use . in a factory production mode wirefeed  wins. and i respect the many talented people here who are wonderful wirefeed welders. to me it is a soul-less process ,an unsatisfying    forprofit tool of the corporations .
Reply:Originally Posted by Booger WelderWhat you seem to forget is that you can get more penetration with a rod then you can with flux core and that all machines has a duty cycle.No matter how long you pull the trigger, at some point you have to stop and let the machine cool down or you are going to have a puddle of aluminum on your shop floor and a welder that doesn't work anymore.
Reply:Originally Posted by sjamesMost any welder can run 100% duty cycle at some amperage.  So i dont think duty cycle is really much of an argument.  I would think anyone looking to production weld is going to size the power source accordingly.
Reply:indeed,  my hand gets too hot before the welder does if im doing any aluminum with the 185. XMT 350 MPa, w/D52-DTA 185 TSWHarris of
Reply:Originally Posted by DesrtRider33Not sure about other standards organizations, but under AWS you can get a D1.1, 1.3 or 1.8 wire cert without a already holding a stick cert.
Reply:I would go broke if was building with stick.   theres times where stick makes sense, but i think the amount of stick welding i do is less than %5Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:with .45 my little 180hd can do 1/2" in a single pass!!
Reply:oh and i FCAW all positions all conditions.   No rod ovens needed either.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:Dualie,  I know where you are coming from.  We carried a ln25Pro on one unit and a 12vs on another.  You couldn't beat the lay down those two had.  That said, when we had to weld stainless, it was stick.  I am not a pipe welder, but the owner of one of the rigs was and we had several repairs that were pipe related and stick was king.  I had several repairs that were over 20 foot in the air.  it is much easier to disconnect the suitcase and run a stinger.But I must confess, we ran wire as much as we could be cause of speed and efficiency.  On the 12vs, we had a 12 inch long reach gun.  you talk about a dream.  if you don't have one get one.  There were several repairs I made with it I would have hated life if I were stuck with a stick.
Reply:Originally Posted by Dualieoh and i FCAW all positions all conditions.   No rod ovens needed either.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jason280Not trying to be argumentative here, but can you really do single pass welds on 1/2" with a 180 amp machine?
Reply:i never gave wirefeed much of a chance so i guess the problem is with me. but my limited experience is drag fluxcore and seems like that smoke obscures puddle  worse than stick, and push mig and cover the puddle with the tip...
Reply:I never considered visibility much of an issue as I have been able to see the puddle in all of the processes and there are times when the visibility is difficult to see in all the processes as visibility changes in relation to position and structure your welding on.  Smoke/fume is a pain more in that it covers my lense and it has to contantly cleaned.  I think the reason you are getting more smoke from fluxcore is because you are able to lay more metal down quicker.  I can't say I have tested it by any scientifically measurable way, but just thinking if you can lay more metal down faster you will have more fume.  I also think it is depenant upon what stick or wire you use.  Some wire seem to have more fume as some sticks seem to have more fume.  I don't know.  It hasn't really been a bother either way except I hate having my lense smoked over.  It makes my number 11 shade seem like a 14.Hank,  what wire do you run most of the time?
Reply:Originally Posted by Hank33Liners, drive wheels, tips, etc.  All issues with flux core, it is not maintenance free.Each has their place.  I have customers that absolutely will not allow flux core, I have tried to convince them otherwise but they don't care.  I like flux core on dirty repairs, but I take out the rods for trailer and other transport projects.  You don't get the same type of vertical uphill weld with flux core that you do with a 7018 or a 9018.  When doing semi trailers or something I prefer safe over sorry.I should have noted Dualie not Hank.  Dualie,  what wire do you run?  Do you run the same in the shop  as you do in the field?  Do you make the choice or is it handed down from an engineer?  When I welded in a shop we ran dual shield and in the field we ran lincoln 232, 233, and 203.  It was dictated to us most of the time unless it was repair job and then I used what ever the boss said, usually what ever we had on hand or trying to use up.  In the shop it was esab 7100 ultra which is a t1/t9 where the others were t8.
Reply:can't weld mig or mag on pipe? I've tested out with both prossess before on 4" and 6" and 12" pipe. the 6" was vert down root and vert up fill and cap. I still prefer stick but that was the tests. oh ya one of the 12" was open root and vert down all the way.   revpol
Reply:Well for me its mostly stick! If someone comes into the shop or I get called out to the field and the owner doesn't want the part removed to be fixed I fire up the trusty old stick! I have gotten into areas on heavy equipment that required me to bend the rod and even use a bendable mirror in order to make the repair without removing the part. Its also easy to carry a wide assortment of rods instead of various rolls of specialized wire.Co-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.&  2 Hypertherm HPR260's Plasma CutterSorry I had a bad stroke but now I am back.
Reply:Originally Posted by Dualienever said it was maintnace free.  I just said no rod oven needed.   ITs a real pain in the azz to have to keep a rod oven burning all through a job.
Reply:Originally Posted by Scott YoungI should have noted Dualie not Hank.  Dualie,  what wire do you run?  Do you run the same in the shop  as you do in the field?  Do you make the choice or is it handed down from an engineer?  When I welded in a shop we ran dual shield and in the field we ran lincoln 232, 233, and 203.  It was dictated to us most of the time unless it was repair job and then I used what ever the boss said, usually what ever we had on hand or trying to use up.  In the shop it was esab 7100 ultra which is a t1/t9 where the others were t8.
Reply:My brother welds in the Nuclear power plants and has gotten to the point of where the customer requests that he is on the job when they have to do repairs.Last year - he worked all but 23 days of the whole year.He saved his comp time and his vacation and took the month of December off.It really hurt the company - Siemens - because the winter months are the busiest and they couldn't afford to loose him for a entire month.After a while, you end up doing the same jobs over and over again when repairing steam turbines.Hook fits and blade repair and replacement of seals, crashes, and shaft repair.From time to time you get into helping out the guys who repairs the generators.There was a customer last year that was replacing a steam turbine with a more efficient design with more rows of blades and a larger unit.  They had a repair job going on and they asked if my brother would come over and do some welding for the generator service.  My brother came over and they needed some lugs welded onto a segment so they could pick it up.There was a job there where he could have used flux core and he asked if they minded if he got out the machine and did the job.  His certs were about ready to expire - because he left his previous employer a year before and had not done any flux core welding in a year.The customer got uptight and told him to stick weld it because they had some previous bad experiences with previous welders who thought that they knew how to use flux core properly.People have a tendency to get in a hurry and no do the proper prep work and if there is a problem with the machine to just keep pulling the trigger and hoping that the problem goes away.If there is a problem with the wire or the machine that they can hide it under the weld.When all your welds are xray checked, PT checked etc there isn't much that you can get away with.Then when it is done wrong, you end up grinding for a long period of time until you can clean off all the booger weld to get back down to the base material that you were going to weld in the first place.In this situation - my brother was not paid anything extra for keeping his certs active and the company blows a line of smoke up your butt when they hire you and once you are on the job and making them money - all rules are thrown out the window and all the customer cares about is getting it fixed and back up and running as soon as possible.Even a nozzle repair that should be done right, all they care about is getting it fixed good enough to turn it back on and make more money with it.The goal in this case is to have someone weld on it that can do the job right the first time and not the person that can put a bead of weld on it the quickest.It has been my experience that when you run a job where each worker works a 12 hour shift and 7 days a week that the person that makes the mistake usually gets away with it until quitting time and the next person that comes in to weld on it finds that the other person did it wrong and then they spend all night grinding out what the other person did and the rest of their time getting it back to where it was at when the other person left.   Sometimes you are better off just sending the other person home and letting it sit 12 hours while the good welder sleeps.
Reply:from a purely newbie hobbyist standpointsmaw is really fun and versatile and the equipment is cheapfcaw is boring
Reply:Originally Posted by Dualienever said it was maintnace free.  I just said no rod oven needed.   ITs a real pain in the azz to have to keep a rod oven burning all through a job.
Reply:Both processes have a time and place this is like discussing Ford VS Chevy, Coal VS Wood. It comes down to what the job is where it is and what equipment you have available Many of the defensive posts (for both sides) are addressing limited circumstances.My experience takes me from prototype aerospace (NASA) to fixing trash can lids to multi story structural steel fabrication and erection to my neighbors pots and lawn mower deck. I have used PTAW GTAW GMAW FCAW SMAW  SAW RW if it is a common process I have used it. I have run machines from .80 amp to 3500 amps. My point you boys will not find an answer to this question.
Reply:My personal opinion, is if Flux core was better than SMAW in every way shape and form, SMAW wouldn't be used anymore.The fact that SMAW is still used a lot is evidence enough that this is not the case.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardNo its not. Plug it in and walk a way. How is that a PITA.
Reply:As a pipe welder, obviously Im biased towards SMAW... I do like FC for other things. My little mig is already dialed in, so plug in and burn...Im not certified in any MIG process, so Im sure Im under-rating its ability and use.Also, I only need my Bobcat to weld pipe, SS plate, just change rod, and polarity as needed.... What do I care about the "high" cost of rod, my company buys it...Lincoln Power MIG 210 MP ( boat anchor )Lincoln Weld-Pac 100 HDHobart IronMan 230Cutmaster 42Jackson NexGenSumner Ultra ClampsDWM120
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPIt gets to be a PITA when the customer / owner / inspector requires you to keep a log. Rod in oven, date, time, amount. Rod out of oven, date, time, amount. Even seen it where there had to be 12-hours before rod going back in an oven could be used. Now that's a PITA keeping track, especially when the welders on site could care less!
Reply:Originally Posted by DualieHE was just a anal little man that had a little power and took it to far, i will give you that.   but they are out there.
Reply:You only make that mistake ONCE!  especially on a big job where they are going to be inspecting everything you do for quite some time.   best friend or worst enemy, prove them wrong and guess which one your going to have on your hands.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:Originally Posted by Hank33  You don't get the same type of vertical uphill weld with flux core that you do with a 7018 or a 9018.  When doing semi trailers or something I prefer safe over sorry.
Reply:Originally Posted by DualieYou only make that mistake ONCE!  especially on a big job where they are going to be inspecting everything you do for quite some time.   best friend or worst enemy, prove them wrong and guess which one your going to have on your hands.
Reply:I have a Miller Dimension 652. When I need to to weld a short section out of position rather than switch wires from metal core to  flux core I throw a couple of switches and attach a stinger and bobs you uncle. I also have to weld in some very tight places I could never get my gun into; stick is very handy for this.I like to try and match the appropriate process to the situation .brad
Reply:I use both, they both have a place in the welding world. This argument is like trying to pi$$ up a rope.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:I bet you haven't tried Hobart Bros Excel Arc-71 or Trimark Triple 7 then....
Reply:I can carry a lot more molten metal up hill with 0.072" NR-232 than is possible with 7018.The only trailers i weld with stick are the Murray lowbeds and thats because they are T-1 steel.  i will thrown down some 10018 on them only because i don't want to buy a entire roll of wire for one simple repair.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:Stick will always have its place but in most cases you can't beat the ease and speed of flux core.
Reply:I like stick and I like fluxcore.  They both have their advantages and disadvantages.  And they both have their places in the welding world.A few of my toys !LinuxMintManjaroMiller Roughneck 2E Lincoln WeldPak 100HTP MTS 160 Chicago Electric 80amp Inverter   Victor O/A
Reply:I know this thread is a bit old but I need to say "Thank-you" for this discussion.  It was refreshing to see the many different views .... and the enthusiasm!  As a noob and hobbiest, I'm constrained by budget so I suspect it will be SMAW for me for quite a while.
Reply:Originally Posted by Hank33Yeah I am going to call BS on this.  You can do it, but to do it right would take a good bevel, multiple passes, and I question the duty cycle and penetration.  That 180 machine isn't going to last very long doing 1/2" either.