Anyone know anything about 440v 3-phase?

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First of all, let me say I WILL NOT BE WIRING ANYTHING MYSELF. I just want to get a better understanding so I don't look like a complete idiot when the electrician shows up. I would also like to just be able to double check what he is doing. I need a 20amp, 440v 3-phase outlet installed in my shop. I have 3 phase power in the unit, and there is already a 220v 3-phase outlet. I would prefer to avoid transformers. So with the 220v outlet, it has a 3 pole breaker where the 3 hots go to and then one going to the ground. So how would you get 440v out of the panel?? And when would you ever use neutral wires in a 3-phase setup? And lastly, does the machine need to be wired differently depending on if I have Wye or Delta 3-phase? Or will it accept both?John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:It is likely your utility provides one voltage to your facility. I have never seen 110,220,or440. 120,240,and 480 are common. Wye supplies are common, measuring from one of the three "hot" legs to another would give 480 volts. Typically, a hot leg to neutral will give 277. An alternative is Delta where the transformer secondary leads are connected to form a triangle. Often one of the secondary windings in the transformer is center tapped. From such a service you might get 120, 208, or 240. The 240 in single, or three phase. In most cases, other voltages are provided by in house transformers. Often, it's cheaper to buy a motor or welder compatible with your power supply, than a transformer to adapt.
Reply:In western europe, three-phase systems are very common. Voltages differ, but the set-up is the same.Whether you get Y or Delta to your house, doesn't really change much, apart from the output voltages you can make from your 3 phase system.This is above explained.Whether you get Y or Delta, you won't need to rewire your machine (except if you need a ground wire for the controls, but mostly that works from a small transformator inside your machine).Typically, you will need three hots and the neutral , and one ground, for a three-phase machine, although some will work without the neutral (depening if there is a transformator for control voltage needed).Advantage of taking the neutral along (even when not needed) is that you can tap off for a (or multiple) 1 phase outlet(s).
Reply:Do single family homes commonly have 3 phase in Europe?
Reply:3 phase cable is brought into the houses, but most houses only have a one phase connection.This means, if they later needs three phase (milling machine, ...), they only need a new connection and measuring mechanism, but the cable is already inside the house.It is not commonly done, mostly for monetary reasons (3ph cost a lot more).I have a single familyhouse, with a fairly large garage and some 3 phase machines (amongst other two welding machines), I pay about double in regards to when I only had a single phase connection.Transition to 3ph was about 30 minutes work (new measuring mechanism and cabling).
Reply:What Willie said in post #2.From what I remember is: DELTA is more current stable  and WYE is more voltage stable. There's other factors but I think modern electronics require better current stability.The reason two legs of 277 volts equals 480 volts is: they are out of phase. When one leg is at peak 277V the other leg is 120* out of phase at 203V and vice versa.I think your confusion about 440 is 220 times two. Some electricians Ive met are confused over this. It doesnt work like that for 3 phase because they are never at peak at the same time.Your electrician should be able to make it work for you.Hope that makes sense EconodronLast edited by Insaneride; 08-06-2014 at 10:42 AM.
Reply:I  dont recall what volts makes what but going by values that Willie said and I believe to be correct here goes.Measure between any two legs of the 277 volts 3phase and you get 480 volts. Not 554 volts (2*277=554). If you measure any one leg to ground you get 277. The 277 is peak voltage. Because they are out of phase, they will never both be at 277 peak at the same time. Your meter will measure peak voltage between the two legs for a total 480.Three phase is 3 xfmrs or generators running at 120* out of phase.  What I would like to know is how they accurately get them 120* out of phase. Getting them in phase is as simple as a Hot Shot start of starting one generator from another. Please tell me this makes sense or if it doesnt.
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749Right, but if he only has 230 at the box, could it be that the building only has a 230 three phase service?
Reply:I dont know what he has and am not sure its even 3 phase. No offense Econodron.  He said 220 volts and 440 volts. This doesnt make sense to me but if in fact he does have three separate phase of 220v then the total will not be 440. Probly something like 380 volts. This does not seem common.If he does have 440 3 phase then each leg would have to be about 254v to get 440 3 phase. This also does not seem common. 1)I would have to say that if he does have 3 phase then the voltage values he gave us are likely wrong.2)If the voltages are correct then he probly doesnt have 3 phase.3)He could have three phase but not a typical setup.Econodron, if you have 3 phase then you likely have 3 transformer,s already or a 3 phase transformer. I have seen three single phase xfmrs used to supply 3 phase. I have seen some single phase looking xfmrs that were actually 3 phase. You have to look at what is supplying you. Are there 3 power lines and one neutral coming in?On second thought, I do believe I have seen 256 volts to get 440 3 phase.Last edited by Insaneride; 08-06-2014 at 11:25 AM.
Reply:Yes, there are 3 power lines coming in, one neutral, and a ground. I don't understand 3 phase very well, but 220 and 240 are different ways for saying the same thing. They just refer to peak voltage, nominal voltage, there's one for RMS voltage, etc... I guess I really just want to know if I should have an electrician come in to install the 440 3 phase outlet, or use my existing 220 3 phase outlet and use a transformer to power the cold saw. Or I can buy a new motor for $900.John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:Originally Posted by EcondronAnd when would you ever use neutral wires in a 3-phase setup?
Reply:Is it possible that your welder you need to hookup will run off of 220 3 phase and you just need to adjust the jumpers in the machine ?
Reply:Yes, it used to 110 and 220 volts. Nowadays its like 120 and 240 volts . The increased volts helps to lower current/heat and xtend life of electronics these days.In the USA we use 240 volt xfmrs with a center tap for 120 volts. Europe doesnt use a center tapped xfmr.As for what the utilities supply: you get a nuetral wire and a hot wire for each phase. Single will be two wires and triple will be four. You supply the ground at your building.Econodron, I may be wrong but it sounds like single phase. Another possibility that shows up is two phase. You said 3 wires coming in. One is neutral and two hots. The utilities dont supply ground that I know of.
Reply:Originally Posted by G-son... Basically anything bigger than a small apartment will have 230/400V three phase (230V phase-neutral, 400V phase-phase) incoming at the fuse box, with the diffrent phases split to supply the common 230V outlets, lights etc, and 400V three phase may be used to power higher watt appliances such as kitchen stoves or water heaters.
Reply:Years ago where I lived the oil well jacks had 440 volt motors on them.At the transformer you got 480v, by the time you got to the end of the line you had around 440v.Run that 440v motor on 480v and you will(should) be alright.
Reply:If you have 240v or 208 v 3 phase you will need to step up voltage to 480 with transformer.I have done this many times for pieces of equipment in various industrial/commercial settings.Not the most efficient way but it can be done.It would be best if you can configure your equipment to run on the voltage of your electrical service.Lincoln Idealarc 250Millermatic 200Big *** O/AHypertherm 45AHP Alpha TIG 200XA very large bag of Hammers
Reply:I already checked. Motor can only run on 480v. And there are 5 wires coming in. 3 are hots, one goes to the neutral bar, and the other, a much smaller wire just bolts to the back of the panel. The only outlet that is labeled 3 phase has a green wire that is also bolted to that one. Then it has a 3 pole breaker with a hot coming out of each pole. No neutral. Ill take a picture of the open panel later today.
Reply:Seems to me that if the saw will run well on a single phase motor for $900 that would be the way to go unless you can get 480v 3ph run to it much cheaper than that. 1. New motor2. Move it more easily3. Resale value higher because more people could power itMy .02...GravelThe difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference.
Reply:$900? Horse power, RPM, pleaseEverlast PowerARC 300
Reply:Please take the cover off the wiring section on the motor. There will be a number of leads connected to the wiring in groups of 2 or 3 and maybe a group tied together. I need the count of wires and the labels on said wires. I personally have worked on every voltage from 6 volts to lightning protection systems and realistically typical commercial power 120/208, 120/240, 277/480, 600 and 4160 in industrial environments. I have seen a few fixed voltage motors but very few, now this is here, no work in Europe. I have connected a buck-boost transformer which is to increase voltage, the downside is they are inefficient and the voltage goes up and the amperage goes down. So, the transformer needs to be correctly sized for this application. I hope I have provided some useful information. If the motor is in fact reconnectable, I can provide a diagram.RegardsDave
Reply:Voltage to neutral in wye connected three phase is 277 as an example. Phase to phase voltage will be 277x the square root of three or 1.73___.......approximately 480. I have no knowledge of any preference of wye vs. Delta, other than useful voltage. For small facilities with only small motors I like Delta with centertap. It supplies three voltage choices. Many manufacturers supply the same motor for use with 208 or 240 volt power. Often these motors fail to start at about 198 volts. An AC condenser will run well on #12 wire at 240 Volts, but fail to start on #8 wire at 208. Single phase lighting at 208 from centertapped delta will carry more lights on a circuit than 120. A 200 amp circuit at 240 has more capacity than 200 amp at 208 as in Wye. In bigger facilities wire runs are longer, 480 or more will minimize the size of conductors needed to power motors. Invariably, either a separate lower voltage service will be provided or a number of transformers to step down for these loads.Step up transformers are less common, I think because of cost. Unless your motor is something exotic, it is probably cheaper to buy a 240 volt motor.
Reply:Get a new motor.  By the time you buy a transformer and a panel or fused disconnect, you would of wished you just changed the motor out.  At least you can sell or scrap the old motor to recoup some cost.  Idle transformers also use small amounts of power, so you'd have to shut it off everytime you were finished with the saw.  It just makes more sense in the long run to save yourself all the trouble and get the right motor, keep it simple.  Your electrician should be able to look over your project and give you your best options though, there's nothing like seeing it firsthand.
Reply:3ph is a tricky beast, I worked on a project (a highschool built in the 20's) It was built by the mines and had both types of 3ph systems in it depending on which part of the building you were in, The trouble came where the two overlapped and guys spent days trying to figure out what was fed from where going sub panel to sub panel. I did learn that one type of system handles unbalanced loads better than the other
Reply:Smilindave, here are the pictures from inside the motor electrical box. I was told there is no transformer and the motor will only run on 480v. John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:This is SO worth having around any maintenance mechanic worth his pay has a copy...Mine is getting a little dog earedhttp://www.amazon.com/Uglys-Electric.../dp/1449690777Backed my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old TruckEcondron, sounds like you do have 3 phase from your description. If you do have 440 volts phase to phase then you would have to have 256 phase to neutral. Not 220 or 230. Square root of 3 times 256 gives about 440 volts 3 phase.  I didnt know about the square of 3 till Willie said it but it seems to work. I had a different method.It was mentioned that 480 volt jack pump (?) motors will work with 440. I dont know this for sure but it is within 10%. 110 and 120 volts are within 10%. Seems like it would work but draw a little more current. Otherwise your gonna need a Bucky boost xfmr.
Reply:As a retired Industrial Electrician, I am about semi-qualified to address Econdron's original post.I think he asks about a 480 Volt (440) , 20 amp outlet.  If we could see what he has already, and the budget he has for the project,  we could answer in more detail.I have addressed similar problems in industrial plants by purchasing a used 3 phase transformer and making appropriate connections to adjust the voltage to meet the request.  I had room for the transformer and used a fused disconnect in the transformer primary.I offer three choices: Good, Fast, & Cheap. You may pick two.Hobart AC/DC StikMate LXHarbor Freight AD HoodHarbor Freight Industrial Chop SawDeVilbis 20 Gallon, 5 HP Compressor
Reply:If you are in Chicago, you almost certainly have a 240V Delta service. There is no way to get 480V out of that except with a transformer. Fortunately transformers of that type show up regularly on Craigslist and since you are in a large city it should not be too hard to find one.Note: the most common type of transformer you will see is 480 to 120/208 Wye. DO NOT use this type, it will overheat if connected to 240V. Make sure the one you get is 240 Delta on one side and 480 (Delta or Wye, it doesn't matter) on the other.JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:440, 460, 480 call it whatever, all the same for the purpose of this discussion.I too vote for the transformer option.Because...A - Changing the motor on this whateveritis from its now 460v to a lower-voltage, higher-current 230v motor may get into issues with the ampacity and ratings of the machine's controls, wiring, overcurrent protection... etc.B - A transformer will avoid any unforeseen pitfalls of fitting an "it's the same, only different" motor.C - In the event of a move or sale the machine will remain plug-N-play ready for use with the more popular 480 volt shop voltage.D - A transformer arrangement will certainly be available for less than the $900 mentioned for just a motor.E - The transformer arrangement will be usable with other equipment at this site, and unlike the motor which would be pulled, the transformer will always be an easy-to-sell piece.F - Don't forget about the transformer's calming hum, and the warm spot it makes for the cat to nap.Last edited by denrep; 08-07-2014 at 11:14 PM.
Reply:Another option may be a VFD.
Reply:Why can't there ever just be a simple solution! Can someone please post a link to a transformer that I can use? I can't find anything on ebay. I probably just don't know what I'm looking for/what will work.John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:Buck/boost transformers come in a lot of versions... It's not apparent from your pics if there are three leads from the motor stator or 6.Used to be unusual for a 3 phase motor to be single voltage, often the connections were made in the junction box with 6 hot wires going to the stator (easy to change that way). Then again sometimes the connections were inside the motor from the stator with only 3 wires coming out making it a single voltage (this means removing the end bell and getting to the stator to change voltage)...Anyway, the cheapest way was to change the motor leads, even if it meant taking it to a motor shop. Next cheapest was the buck/boost transformer (in my day they were pretty cheap used). Most expensive was always a new motor, and if it ran a goofy RPM then it could be brutal. Also, looking at that box I'm not sure you don't have a 2 speed (1800/3600) motor...Good luckMatt
Reply:Originally Posted by EcondronWhy can't there ever just be a simple solution! Can someone please post a link to a transformer that I can use? I can't find anything on ebay. I probably just don't know what I'm looking for/what will work.
Reply:Hard tellin' not knowin' but it's likely that your service is 208 3phase. 120 volt phase to ground and 220 volt phase to phase.As others have said, the positive and negative alternations of each phase are do not reach maximum voltage (positive or negative) at the same time.  Phase voltage X's 1.7 = 3 phase voltage. If you want 480 volt 3phase (277 phase to ground and 480 phase to phase) you're likely going to need a transformer to step up the voltage, but you probably won't have to do that.Every modern 3 phase motor can operate on dual voltages. it is changed from high to low voltage by how the stator windings are paired in the motor. If you remove the cover of the junction box ON  the motor you will likely see a label, either on the side of the junction box or more commonly on the box cover itself. Sometimes what you are looking for is on the motor information plate itself.What you're looking for is a diagram that shows how the stator wires should be paired for the lower voltage. The stator wires should be numbered, 1 to 8Pair them for the lower voltage and you should be good to go.I'm not familiar with any vfd's that would step-up 208 3phase to 460 or 480vac because the building where I work is all 208 3phase, except some small applications that are specific to machines as manufactured. It's likely that they exist however and would cost less than $900 for a single motor less than 5 or 10 HPVfd's do all kinds of cool things, vary frequencies to play with motor  speed, output DC square wave power that is real consistant, overload protection, etc.They're little tiny miracles of electrical flexibility.Last edited by small_e_900; 08-09-2014 at 07:19 PM.