Plasma Cutting Railroad Track

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Tonight when I got home from work I started working on making a poor mans anvil out of a 2 foot piece of railroad track.I figured it would be fairly quick work to get the general shaping done with my plasma cutter but found out in a hurry that the plasma cutter won't even try to cut this steel. I know the steel has a fairly high carbon content in it and it is hardened. I know its not the plasma cutter (hypertherm 1000) because it whittles thru mild steel like a hot knife thru butter and with a 3/4" rated cut it should have had no problem with the web section of the track that I was trying to cut as it was only 5/8"When I tried to cut the rail the plasma made a very small dimple (3/16" X 3/16") in the steel after numerous attempts, after that I gave up an dragged the O/A torch out and got 'er done.I was under the impression that a plasma cutter will cut anything that conducts electricity and that is the reason for this post. Has anyone else come across any kind of steel or other metal that a plasma wont cut?
Reply:Something it seriously wrong with your plasma.  Maybe you have a bad tip or other consumable.  Often flame cutting is a problem if the chromium or nickel is high but that is not a problem for plasma.
Reply:I don't know a bout the plasma cutter not cutting it, That suprises me too.I'm anxious to here some more knowledgable people comment on this.I have, however seen rails cut with a chisel. Blew my mind!Patrick
Reply:teknition, what is the current and the rated cutting capacity of your plasma cutter?  I suspect that you are just trying to cut too big a hunk of metal. While the ordinary plasma cutting process does need electrically conductive metal for the cutting, it is for the purpose of transferring the plasma arc out of the torch and onto the workpiece.  The cutting process is basically just melting and blowing away the metal in the cerf.  I wonder if you simply had too large heat sinks connected to the web you were trying to cut.  The rail head and base are big hunks of metal intimitely connected (thermally) to the web and may have conducted too much heat away from the area of the cut.Since you did manage the cut with your OA torch, did you try cutting out a coupon from the web left in the scrap and trying to cut that with your plasma, isolated from the influence of the rail head and base?  Might be interesting.  If you do try that, let us know what the result is.Reminds me of the time I was trying to remove the 80 year old Scotch Boiler from the boiler room using my newly acquired Thermal Arc Cutmaster 45.  I was making these cute little boutique cuts in the 1/2" plate and, while having fun with my new toy, making slow progress while the journeyman welder who was helping me on other aspects of the project looked on in disgust.  I went off for lunch and, by the time I returned, he had it recuced to a pile or scrap using the biggest OA cutting torch I had ever seen.Match the tool to the job.awright
Reply:It sounds to me like the ground wasn't connected (or connected well) to the rail. Did you have the ground clamp directly on the rail? I have a Hypertherm Powermax 380 (a baby compared to your 1000) and haven't found anything that it wouldn't at least TRY to blow through...unless my ground wasn't hooked up.http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:Excellent observation, ZTFab.  I'm embarrassed that I didn't think of the ground after having the same problem so many times.awright
Reply:Just remember awright...  If everybody is thinking alike, then nobody is thinking. That's one of the things that makes this forum great...a lot of different perspectives.- Paulhttp://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:Pictures to follow right?
Reply:By the way, for you incipient anvil makers out there, don'tignore the capabilities of your bandsaw for making very clean cuts on railroad rail that require only minor cleanup grinding.I had to cut a few samples off a section of mainline rail for engineering tests on track fasteners a decade ago.  My 26" DoAll made pretty quick work of it, but to our surprise, the guy I was cutting the specimens for also made reasonable progress using my 14" Rockwell, also.  Just be sure you have fresh, sharp, bimetal blades with sufficiently coarse teeth to avoid loading up in the thick sections.awright
Reply:I agree with ZTFAb, sounds like a ground problem. I teach track welding. Plasma's will do it, O/A will do it. How old was that rail? Some of the old stuff is crap and cuts are poor quality with either torch.Weldtek
Reply:Thanks for all the replies guys.I tried cutting another chunk of rail tonight after work, but this time I ground down a nice shiny spot for my ground clamp and the plasma cutter zipped right thru the rail. It must have been a bad ground I guess or the only other thing I can think of it perhaps there was a chunk of something other than metal in the rail at the point I tried to cut last night. I doubt that there was any defect in the rail so I guess we can chalk this up to a bad ground. I still have a bit more work to do on the anvil but when its done I will post some pics
Reply:Heres a few pics of milling the face of the RR track flat. Attached Images
Reply:I have a face mill like that one.  I've never used it since I also have an inserted one I do use.  The one in the picture looks like a royal pain to sharpen and get all the bits lined up; have you found that to be the case?
Reply:Originally Posted by TubularFabI have a face mill like that one.  I've never used it since I also have an inserted one I do use.  The one in the picture looks like a royal pain to sharpen and get all the bits lined up; have you found that to be the case?
Reply:Glad to see that you got it worked out teknition.That anvil looks like it's going to be sweet!! - Paulhttp://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:You won't be the first, or the last, to forget to hookup the ground to the work piece...  I did that on a chunk of pipe I was trying to cut off for a bbq smoker project....the wife wanted to know why she could hear me ranting and raving from the shop all the way to the house...
Reply:Originally Posted by IT-WelderYou won't be the first, or the last, to forget to hookup the ground to the work piece...  I did that on a chunk of pipe I was trying to cut off for a bbq smoker project....the wife wanted to know why she could hear me ranting and raving from the shop all the way to the house...
Reply:I finally got the anvil all done so heres the pics I promised. Attached Images
Reply:I almost forgot, I took a special one for Bob  Attached Images
Reply:Presentation quality, teknition.Are you going to be able to bring yourself to whack it with a big hammer?awright
Reply:Awesome.Great work. Great pics, especially the last one.When you do put something on it and smack it, your part will fly across the room with that mirror polish on there. Either rough it up a bit or leave it like it is and put it on the mantle.I like it a lot.
Reply:tecknition, what was the RPM you ran the face mill at? Being nosy here.
Reply:Beautiful show piece technition,  . I've generally always had a piece of railroad iron around for whacking on. Never really taken the time to shape the to anything. As a side note, more personal observation than anything, whatever brand of rust developes on RR iron is like the perfect coating. I've never really seen much with the big flakey rust on it. Seems like once it gets that initial micro layer it never goes any further.
Reply:Originally Posted by Sandytecknition, what was the RPM you ran the face mill at? Being nosy here.
Reply:Originally Posted by awrightPresentation quality, teknition.Are you going to be able to bring yourself to whack it with a big hammer?awrightnice finish, now ya ain't gonna want to use it. I have that problem sometimes. Nice workDewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob WarnerAwesome.Great work. Great pics, especially the last one.When you do put something on it and smack it, your part will fly across the room with that mirror polish on there. Either rough it up a bit or leave it like it is and put it on the mantle.I like it a lot.
Reply:Cool.This is the controiller you will want to use on your salt tanks, gas or electric.Go hereThere is one ending sooner that I bid on. There are a lot ending later. This is a good controller. Used with a gas valve you can control your gas forge or gas heated salt tanks. You can also use it just for controlling electrical elements. It has a max of 3w but I have a wiring diagram to use a contactor to control the 240V heating elements. The unit and contactor operate off of 120V. Send me an email if you want me to send it to you. Have some other info on salt tanks and stuff if you want it.  Have plans for a propane forge on my website for free, just click the banner below and look under shop stuff for several tutorials.If you plan on building a grinder, I would recommend you use the KMG as a model, it is a great grinder and one of the most popular out there.Bob
Reply:tek, that looks great!!!! I don't think I've ever seen a mirror finish on an anvil before. Painted it red to match the mill stand huh.
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob WarnerCool.This is the controiller you will want to use on your salt tanks, gas or electric.Go hereThere is one ending sooner that I bid on. There are a lot ending later. This is a good controller. Used with a gas valve you can control your gas forge or gas heated salt tanks. You can also use it just for controlling electrical elements. It has a max of 3w but I have a wiring diagram to use a contactor to control the 240V heating elements. The unit and contactor operate off of 120V. Send me an email if you want me to send it to you. Have some other info on salt tanks and stuff if you want it.  Have plans for a propane forge on my website for free, just click the banner below and look under shop stuff for several tutorials.If you plan on building a grinder, I would recommend you use the KMG as a model, it is a great grinder and one of the most popular out there.Bob
Reply:Originally Posted by BRICKmp5tek, that looks great!!!! I don't think I've ever seen a mirror finish on an anvil before. Painted it red to match the mill stand huh.
Reply:teknition,Just reread my page. Need to edit it. The welding forge is basically the same as the one I show you how to build but instead of the blanket refractory it used castable refractory (high temp cement), everything else is the same.Two methods to the same result. The only issue with the blanket is that the flux eats up the blanket like water on cotton candy. You have to be careful.I'll send the info when Iget your email.
Reply:Bob,I got your email, thank you very much for the info
Reply:technition, you said, "...if its too slipery I will rough it up a bit. By the time I get around to forging some steel on it it'll probably have a bit of rust formed on the surface anyway so that should help."Actually, a thin film of rust with a tiny bit of water, like morning dew, makes a very effective lubricant.  Wheel flats - the defects that go thump, thump with each wheel rotation on a transit vehicle - are usually generated by wheels skidding during normal braking on the thin film of rust and moisture on the rails on early morning runs after an idle night.  My recollection from working around the forge in jr. high school many decades ago is that we had a bucket of water next to the anvil and steam and splash were everywhere (maybe because we were 12 years old).I think that your anvil will get rough enough quite naturally after a few projects since it is not super hard steel.Have fun.awright
Reply:There are several uses for that bucket of water next to the anvil but putting any water on the anvil was not one of them. There is only one reason I know of to put water on an anvil, I will explain that later in this post.The bucket of water is used to cool things down, if your tongs get to hot, you dunk them. If your your piece has really thin parts or points, you pull it out of the forge and cool just the small parts then put it back in and work the thick stuff.If you burn your hand you can dunk it quickly in the "cool" but dirty water. It also acts as a fire extinguisher.You can put your hammer head in the bucket to swell up the handle for a temporary method to tighten the head.Now, If you want to scare the heck out of someone when you are forging, you can wait until they turn their back and dunk your hammer head in the water to get it wet. You then rub the water on the anvil face. Take your HOT metal from the forge and lay it on top of the water, wait just a second to allow it to create some steam and then smack it with the hammer.This will create a sound that is equal to the firing of my Ruger Blackhawk .357 and everyone not looking will jump. You also need to know that when you take you piece out of the forge or if you do not have a reducing flame, you will have scale on your piece and this explosion with splatter scale all around. It is dangerous, especially if there are kids around who's eyes are at anvil face level.I do not condone the use of this practice, I only post it here for information purposes only.The railroad anvil will get it's own roughing with forging. Railroad track work hardens. All the years of those heavy trains rolling over harden the steou have to anneal it to soften it up or cut the top off to remove the harder metal. In this case the harder metal was removed. It will work harden again as it is used. If it were me I would just use 220 sandpaper and sand for a couple minutes in the face only, leave the rest polished. Have a bucket of oil in the area with a rag on it. When done forgiing for the day, wipe the anvil clean and drape the rag (wring it out) over the anvil. This is not required if the anvil is inside.If your anvil isinside your forge may also be inside. Remeber that a forge coal or propane burn fossil fuels and creat carbon monoxide. They are virtually carbon monoxide factories. Make sure you have good ventilation.Stepping off my soapbox.
Reply:Thanks for the posts guy, lots of good info there  It will probably be a while until I get to smack any steel around on my new anvil. I will have to buy materials and build more tools over the winter and with some of the prices I've seen for some of the materials I need, it may even be longer than that  I've been pricing stainless tubing for the salt tanks  They aren't giving it away, thats for sure. Knife steel is pretty expensive as well, 1095 isn't too bad but some 154cm is probably a bit out of reach at the moment. It was all american pricing I found and if its like anything else, when I find it over here it will probably be about double the price.Oh well....I'll continue saving and scroungin...lol, I can see a trip to the scrap metal yard in my future.Good safety tip about the carbon monoxide Bob, I've read it a few times before but it never hurts to hear that kind of stuff frequently. I plan on doing anything that involves propane outdoors so I don't have to worry about getting gassed. I get enough CO at work (mechanic) so I really don't need any additional sources.
Reply:You have to be careful what steels you look at. 154cm is a stainless steel and is not a forging steel. Forget that, all the stainless stuff is not available to you to forge, does not work.You need to look at the 10XX series, most likely you will want to get 1075/1080 or 1095. 1095 is a littlemore picky than the other and a little more expensive as well.Go here: http://Refractory.EllisCustomKnifeworks.comDarren Ellis sells ab out everything you could ever want and he is cheaper than most. Very accomidating guy. He does not sell any steels but forging steels.If you want to go stainless, you need an oven or salt tanks to heat treat and you have to do stock removal for these steels.Let me know if you have questions about any of this stuff.
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob WarnerYou have to be careful what steels you look at. 154cm is a stainless steel and is not a forging steel. Forget that, all the stainless stuff is not available to you to forge, does not work.You need to look at the 10XX series, most likely you will want to get 1075/1080 or 1095. 1095 is a littlemore picky than the other and a little more expensive as well.Go here: http://Refractory.EllisCustomKnifeworks.comDarren Ellis sells ab out everything you could ever want and he is cheaper than most. Very accomidating guy. He does not sell any steels but forging steels.If you want to go stainless, you need an oven or salt tanks to heat treat and you have to do stock removal for these steels.Let me know if you have questions about any of this stuff.
Reply:I have made knives out of 1075/1080 and they hold up just fine. 1084 was popular because it not only had good properties but it works well with 15n20 or L6 when making Damascus.ALL of the steels sold for knifemaking are good steels for knives. The important thing is knowing what they are and how to "Properly" heat treat them. A 1075/1080 knife will easily out perform an improperly heat treated knife of another steel.As for heat treating there is a LOT to learn. For example lets say you want a hunting knife and you want to primarily skin deer. You properly heat treat the knife with whatever method you choose. It will skin 4 or 5 deer without getting dull.Now, you want a camp knife. You use the same steel and the same heat treat. Good to go right? NO! As soon as you try to chop down a tree you hit the tree and the end of your camp knife goes flying.WHY? Glad you asked.You have to adapt your heat treatment to the intended use of the blade. A deer skinner wants a knife that will stay sharp at least for the time he is in the field because it is a pain to have to sharpen before skinning a deer and nobody wants to sharpen the bight before the hunt cause the beer is cold. You heat treat the knife so that the steel is really hard and does not dull fast. BUT, it is more brittle when hard so as a camp knife it can't handle the abuse and breaks.For a camp knife, you have to make the edge a little softer and the spine even softer yet. Now it can take the shock of hitting the tree and not break, the downside, it needs sharpened more often.In most cases you want the spine soft enough to bend but not break. The reason for this is if you were in a survival situation and somehow fell and bent your knife, you could still use it. A bent knife is a lot more useful than a broken knife.Do you understand hardness and what tempering does? If not I have a good generic explaination of it that can help you understand it.Keep the questions and comments coming. EVERYONE should know how to make a knife in my opinion. And charcoal, and a forge and a grinder, etc....Need to keep passing the knowledge on to others...........
Reply:I second the recommendation for a programmable PID controller on any kind of heat-treating furnace.  Either for quench, or tempering.  If you're going to drive an electric element, make sure that you get one with zero-crossing detection.  Any PID designed to drive an AC-powered heater should have zero-crossing detection.  "Zero-crossing" is the point in the AC wave where there is zero current.  Switching on and off at any time other than the zero-crossing moment will create an unpleasant EMI that could effect other devices.  In electronic terms a "contactor" is a relay.  Adding a relay to a PID is a simple matter.  A solid-state relay is preferable to a mechanical relay as a mechanical relay will wear out quickly if cycled on and off.I prefer electric furnaces as the atmosphere is more controllable.  You could draw a vacuum on one or even purge with argon.  Larger ones become too costly to run.-Heath
Reply:Thanks for the post Bob. Great explanation in the difference between hardness and toughness.I think I have a fairly clear idea of heat treating and tempering. This should be in the ball park, if not feel free to correct me.To heat treat the steel you bring it up to its critical (austentizing) temperature and in the case of carbon steels this would be non magnetic. You would let the steel soak at this temp for a certain length of time depending on type and thickness. This would disolve all the carbides in the steel and evenly distribute them. You would then quench the steel and if done right it would transform the disolved carbides in the steel to martensite and make a very hard but brittle blade. You would then temper the blade by bringing it to a lower temp than critical (temp varies depending on type of steel) and letting it soak there for a certain length of time before removing it and letting it air cool, this would make the blade less brittle and add toughness caracteristics to the blade. Depending on what temperature, and time at that temp the blade was exposed to would vary the toughness as well as hardness in the blade. In some cases the blade is cycled through multiple tempering cycles.I'm always ready to learn more and I'm sure others would like to see the generic explanation you have. By all means, please post it
Reply:You have a pretty solid understanding, though there are some additional tricks in the heat-treating and tempering process for various types of steel.  They aren't secrets, though.  Once you settle on a particular alloy, you can use the old Internet to figure out what those are.  Specifically, I'm thinking about ramp, soak, and cooldown times for tempering.  Some steels also respond well to cryo treatments, though not in the mystical sense that some folks (rifle barrel people) advertise.-Heath
Reply:Originally Posted by halbrittI second the recommendation for a programmable PID controller on any kind of heat-treating furnace.  Either for quench, or tempering.  If you're going to drive an electric element, make sure that you get one with zero-crossing detection.  Any PID designed to drive an AC-powered heater should have zero-crossing detection.  "Zero-crossing" is the point in the AC wave where there is zero current.  Switching on and off at any time other than the zero-crossing moment will create an unpleasant EMI that could effect other devices.  In electronic terms a "contactor" is a relay.  Adding a relay to a PID is a simple matter.  A solid-state relay is preferable to a mechanical relay as a mechanical relay will wear out quickly if cycled on and off.I prefer electric furnaces as the atmosphere is more controllable.  You could draw a vacuum on one or even purge with argon.  Larger ones become too costly to run.
Reply:Originally Posted by halbrittYou have a pretty solid understanding, though there are some additional tricks in the heat-treating and tempering process for various types of steel.  They aren't secrets, though.  Once you settle on a particular alloy, you can use the old Internet to figure out what those are.  Specifically, I'm thinking about ramp, soak, and cooldown times for tempering.  Some steels also respond well to cryo treatments, though not in the mystical sense that some folks (rifle barrel people) advertise.
Reply:This was writen because I would get emails every day from new knifemakers that did not understand that heat treating was a multipart process of hardening and tempering. They also did not understand the hardness testing and what it meant to have a blade that was Rockwell hardness of 59 or 60. I posted this on my web page and 90% of the quesions stopped. It is not intended to relay scientific information but instead a general understanding of what happens.What is heat treating?Since this FAQ is for the beginning knifemaker, I have written the following in a VERY basic manner to get the point across on heat treating.  This includes hardening, tempering and WHY we have to do them.  I do not explain anything technical that is going on in the steel, just a laymans way of explaining it so that the point gets across to the new knifemaker.  After you understand what it is, you can look up the info on the technical info on your own. Very often people will ask questions about how to temper a blade because they did this or that to it. But being new, they are misusing the terms and getting themselves confused. Therefore, when they ask a question to the more experienced people the answers, although correct, are not really right because the wrong question was asked.This VERY unscientific explanation may help. I am not going to talk about the steel components and how they react, you can get that later in more detail. I just want to help people understand hardening and tempering so they can ask the right questions and then understand the answers they get back.Lets pretend that steel has a hardness range from 0 to 100.0 is the softest steel can be while in a solid state.100 is the absolute hardest steel can get.So 0-100 range is where we have to work our knife steel, completely soft to completely hard.Well, we know that 0 is too soft for a knife because soft steel bends easily and can get scratched up easy also.100 would be too hard for a knife because hard steel is brittle. If you bend it just a little bit it breaks right off like an icicle. Our delema in knifemaking is to get a piece of steel that is hard, but not too hard.First we have to learn how to make steel hard. To do that, we take a piece of soft steel and get it hot. We get it hot enough to change the properties of the steel. This temperature is different for each steel but we will just say that we have to get it real hot.So we heat the steel up real hot, the steel changes it's properties (carbon steels loose their attraction to a magnet).Now it is really hot so it is also really soft. Then we take that hot steel and stick it into some oil that is cold (about 125 degrees but cold compared to the steel). The steel is shocked by the sudden cold and cools off very quickly. When it cools off this fast the properties all change again. And the steel gets really hard.The steel does not get to 100 but maybe to 80.  Using different things to quench in result in different hardnesses after quenching.  Quenching in Brine can get the steel to or very close to 100 in hardness.The process that we just did is to harden the steel. Some refer to it as heat treating it but for our discussion it is hardening.  This is a very stressful thing to the steel, the properties of the steel are shocked severely and sometime the steel will crack.Ok, so here we are with a piece of steel that is 80 in hardness. Too hard for a blade because it is still kinda brittle and can break. We are going to have to do something to soften it up.The way to soften it up is to heat it up again. But we don't want it really soft so we won't heat it really hot. Just a little, to soften it up just a little. Soft enough that it will bend if forced to do so but won't break. If you were lost in the woods, you would probably rather try to survive with a bent knife than a broken knife, right?Ok, so we need to figure out how soft we want the knife. People like butchers and hunters know how to sharpen their knives and don't mind doing so. Therefore they want knives a little softer than a guy that can't sharpen his knife worth beans. That guy needs a harder blade so it stays sharp longer. We would need to make his blade a little harder.If we take that hard blade and heat it up to 400 degrees, it would get softer, maybe down to 60 or 61.If we heat it to 425 it will get a little softer, maybe 58 or 59.If we go to 450 it will soften up to maybe 56 or 57.This "Softening" of hard steel is called tempering.  Most knifemakers temper to a hardness between 56-61 for almost everything they make.  Softer and the knife will bend, harder and it will break.You harden a knife and then temper it to the desired hardness depending on the knifes proposed use. These two processes together are called "Heat Treating."If you grind out a knife, then heat treat it and then start regrinding the knife to clean it up and get it to final polish. You have to be careful not to heat it above the temperature you tempered your blade at or your blade will get softer than you want it to. You would then have to repeat the entire heat treating process to get the hardness you want.There are rules to follow depending on the steel you are using and how you do all of this, but hopefully the idea of why we make it hard then soften it back up makes sense.There you go, a VERY GENERIC definition of hardening and tempering. This was prompted by the many questions I get and then the repeat questions do to new people not understanding the difference between hardening and tempering. After this explanation, most get the general idea and can then start asking more in depth questions related to their steel of choice.
Reply:Very well explained, thanks Bob
Reply:Good explanation!  Every welder should have to do a simple hardening and tempering exercise sometime during their formal training.
Reply:This thread has taken on a new life but just a question about the track...teknition,What size did you you use ?Does Railroad Track Rail come in different sizes ?NnF
Reply:Yes, NnF, rail comes in many different sizes, depending upon what level of service and weight of rolling stock is expected.  As I recall (and this is a vague recollection from testing programs 30 years ago), heavy mainline rail is called 136 pound rail, since it weighs 136 pounds per yard.  Profiles and dimensions are listed in handbooks.  If you are interested, perhaps I can find a chart at my old testing firm.  I left the firm 15 years ago, but still drop in to chat periodically.  I'm sure a google search will bring up lots of data, also.  Check out the AAR (Association of American Railroads).No, I just tried AAR and if you are not a member, you can't search much.My gut feeling is that even the heaviest rail will make a fairly light (albeit still very useful) anvil compared to the weight of a blacksmith's anvil.  But of course it all depends upon what you intend to work on the anvil.  Probably fine for knife work, but I'd listen to Bob on that.  awright
Reply:Originally Posted by NnF This thread has taken on a new life but just a question about the track...teknition,What size did you you use ?Does Railroad Track Rail come in different sizes ?