The right welder machine for my project (45' steel sailboat)

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Dear fellows,I've been reading this forum from a long time ago, but this is my first post. I know that I can count with many experienced welder that are in this forum.  First, let me say that I have never welded before, but I consider myself some skilful using the hands (I’ll have around 10 months to learn before the project starts). This first post is to clear my ideas regarding which machine is good for my project.The Project:On the next year, 2008, I'll start to build my dream: a 45' steel sailboat. I'll use A36 grade steel from various thickness, from 1/8" to 3/4". The majority of the welds will be on 1/8" and 5/32" A36 steel plate. Some welds (frames and longitudinals) will be on 1/4" and 5/16". The welds on 3/4" plate will be minimal, less than 16' of linear weld (i'll not consider this plate to choose the machine. If needed, I'll rent a powerful machine to weld this).I'll weld few stainless steel tubes (around 7/64" wall) too.The Questions:Dear fellows, the first doubt that I have is about the machine. At first, I was considering a Lincoln Power MIG 215, but after reading many posts (in this and other forums) about PM215 x MM210, now I'm inclined to buy the Miller Millermatic 210. Since I'm into the $1000-$1500 range, I would like to hear your opinion, comments and which machine you would chose. (I really liked the ESAB Migmaster 250 reviews too, but I think that $1800 is too much for me and my necessities, but if I found one around $1500…..).The other doubt, is that I’m thinking to use the Lincoln NR-212 flux-core wire on the whole project (I’ll build the boat without any shelter, so wind will be a constant guest  ). Is this wire ok for the whole project (less SS)?Any help or comment will be very appreciated!Thank you in advance.Best regards,GustavoPs: I would like to apologise in advance for any misspelling. English is not my first language.
Reply:Flux core is just as strong.  That won't be a problem.
Reply:Any of those machines would do fine. I really don't know anything about building a steel sailboat so the one thing that I would worry about is if the gun and hose assembly would reach all areas needing welded as the boat nears completion. I would guess that there will be tight spots that will have to be stick welded.
Reply:Originally Posted by tresiI really don't know anything about building a steel sailboat
Reply:Welderboy and Tresi,Thank you very much for your comments.Well, regarding tight spots, this will not be a big issue. I have already talked about this issue with the designer and the only place that I will have some difficult is when I will need to weld inside the keel. However, the designer already have a "walkthrough welding procedure" so I won't be trapped in tight spaces.About reaching inside the hull, the options to have a wirefeeder separated from power source is to expensive, so I think that I can't avoid the fact that I will have to move the heavy MIG machine every time that I would like to weld inside the boat (the boat will be built up side down in the beginning. and there will be a space between the boat (sheer line) and the floor so the welder machine can pass through or the machine can be lifted).Did you have any of these machines that I mentioned in my first post? How is the performance of these machines using flux-core?Thanks! Last edited by gustavolm; 06-09-2007 at 11:42 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by gustavolmDid you have any of these machines that I mentioned in my first post? How is the performance of these machines using flux-core?
Reply:The other doubt, is that I’m thinking to use the Lincoln NR-212 flux-core wire on the whole project (I’ll build the boat without any shelter, so wind will be a constant guest  ). Is this wire ok for the whole project (less SS)?
Reply:Gustavo,I ran across this site a while ago, and found it fascinating.  Perhaps, you will, too.  Two gals in Canada building a steel hulled sailboat, and doing a great job.http://www.thebigsailboatproject.com/sail1.htmDave
Reply:Originally Posted by gustavolm... The Project:On the next year, 2008, I'll start to build my dream: a 45' steel sailboat The majority of the welds will be on 1/8" and 5/32" A36 steel plate....
Reply:Don´t know much reallly about the prices...but for that range a used TIG would rock, maybe you can get the option for aluminum in the future? (don´t really know much about prices as said before)It all depends on how much wind you got over there...but a TIG machine is on the top level. It is slower too, are you looking to finish you project fast? Here´s a guy selling a used invertec with feeder for 1,000 bucks, great price, but it needs 3 phase power...My Babies: HF Drill pressHF Pipe Bender3   4.5" Black and Decker angle grindersLincoln Electric PROMIG 175that´s it!
Reply:Tig is a great machine but with as many welds as he has to make a tig will not be practical.  I personally think it might be easy to handle your way around the boat with a good stick machine if you can't afford a separate feeder and power source.  I would highly recommend looking into taking some welding classes at a local trade school.  This is quite a project for someone who has never welded.  Your welds can mean life or death on a project like this, and you surely don't want to find out that your welds will fail when you are out on the water.  On a project like this you will not only have to master welding, but cutting, fitting, and layout as well.  I think you'll find some classes very helpful.   I'm not trying to discourage you, but don;t want you to get into a potentionally hazardous situation.     Good luck ~JacksonI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Hammack_Welding, I agree.   But a wirefeed setup would be a lot easier to learn.  And since it sounds like he is ready to jump into the project right away without much learning time wire would be best.But about the layout, cutting, fitting and crucial welds.  It is not a project for a beginner, intermediate, or even many advanced welders.  That is definitely a project for a professional boat builder or an advanced welder/fitter who is being directed by a professional boat builder.I am no trying to discourage you either.  I build boats for a living.  There is a lot of complicated stuff in there and a lot of crucial welds that even guys who have been welding for 30 years have trouble welding.I've been wanting to build my own boat for a while now too.  A 16-20' aluminum shallow running river jet sled.  Going to be a while before even I feel comfortable taking on the project and I will be building it myself and another boat builder.
Reply:Thank you guys for all you valuable comments!  Well, let's go...I've seen several references indicating that the e71t-11's should be restricted to thicknesses of 1/2" maximum. You'll want to verify this for yourself of course.
Reply:Originally Posted by gustavolmThank you guys for all you valuable comments!  Well, let's go...Sandy, according to Lincoln's website, the NR-212 wire can be used up to 3/4".http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowl...tent/20faq.asp (question #3 from this FAQ)Weldordie, thank you for the link. They are doing a great job with the boat an with the huge photolog that they are building online! Denrep,I can have 3 phase power if needed. Around the 230v range, the current will not be a problem too (at 1 phase, my site can support around 50A).I'll be welding many many many out of position. About lifiting equipment, after the 10 month period that I pretend to learn to weld, I will build a gantry crane (16' height ; 23' wide) to use as the main lifting equipment.This crane will run back-and-forward on the top of a rail (steel angle).Elvergon, after reading many boatbuilding books, mainly the metal ones, I think that MIG is the way to go for an amateur.Hammack_Welding, you are completely right. I had already looked for a welding school in my city, and this will be my first step for shure. After the school, I pretend to use the rest of that 10 months to do some practice and some small welding works related to the project too.Some time after I start to build the boat, after some welds, I'm thinking to call someone to do a "welding quality survey" on this first welds (frames,webs,long.) on the boat (just to know if I'm welding right). I'm thinking to call the same guy again after the hull completion.I'll have my wife help all the time, and she will learn to weld too. She have done many works with wood and she is very skilful too.I know that you don't want to discourage me, you are right about this. I think that 1200+- hours of practice and the "welding survey" during the project will be some valuable precautions that any disaster occurs later.WelderBoy, it's great to hear that you build boats. Your experience will be very useful!I forgot to inform in my first post that I'll have all the steel cut in a CNC machine (laser for frames, and plasma for the rest). So, I'll have almost all the "pieces" already cut.I really liked the setup that you are advising (power detached from wirefeeder), but since I have no knowledge and have never searched before about this setup, do you think that I can get something like this new around $1500 ? Thank you one more time for all of you! Please, keep going...
Reply:How about this welder: http://www.weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10090What a value. After a day of work a new welder becomes a used welder anyway. I will donate a Continental powered SA-200 to be used as an anchor!
Reply:Sandy, according to Lincoln's website, the NR-212 wire can be used up to 3/4".
Reply:I will donate a Continental powered SA-200 to be used as an anchor!
Reply:What is the main differences between the "standard" and seismic wires?
Reply:Sandy, thank you for the explanation.In all the boat building forum that I have checked, when one uses gasless wire, it's a E71T-11 wire type. Tomorrow, I'll call to a shipyard near my home and check if they use gasless wire (and which grade). Anyway, I didn't found any seismic wire up to .045", all of them is above this.Which E71T-11 brand you have used to weld? Will be the slag a big concern?What is your experience with weld quality using E71T-11 wires?I have noted that Miller and Bernard have a exchange program  , I'm now more inclined to get the MM210 with a 300 q-gun (i have customized one gun on their website, Q30 15 A E 8E M):Q30 : 300 amps15 : 15 ft. (4.57 m) cableA : 300 Amp Curved Handle, Standard TriggerE : Rotatable, Medium 45° QT3-45 neck8E : 0.045" (1.2 mm) T-045 Centerfire contact tipM : Miller® direct plug styleIs this will be a good gun?MM210 (as well PM215, PM255C, MigMaster250) will be a great machine for an one-time project, and will handle very well more than 99% of the welds (less than 1% will be the 3/4" keel floor. I could rent for less than a week a more powerful machine than MM210).Thank you one more time for all the help!
Reply:Gustavo, welcome to WeldingWeb.  Your English sure seems much better than  most of 'our' second languages!  By the way, where are you located and what is your primary language?MIG vs TIG for the fabrication of a 45 ft steel sailboat?  No question there, MIG!!!  TIG would take you forever and 2 days, MIG will probably let you do the job in at least a month or two less time!  Just kidding about the times, but TIG will be much-much-much-much slower than MIG for that size project.I'd say use wire that has the seismic/v-notch ratings.  The wire that isn't 'rated' -may- be good enough, but it also may not be.  The wire that is seismic/notch rated will be piece-of-mind and one less worry.  And the sesmic-code rated wire is that way to handle structures that shake, bend, vibrate, and get pounded.  Sort of like a steel-hulled sailboat pounding through waves.  Use the sesmic-rated wire!  Those wires also have rated v-notch impact properties, especially at lower temperatures.  And lower temperatures could easily be seen by a sailboat in winter storage, or extended sailing, even if your main sailing waters are warm and tropical you or the next owner may want to visit or pass through other climates and areas.Next, good find on the sailboatproject webpages.  I think I had previously seen that at one point, but don't know if it was finished yet.  Cool project and web-diary about the project as well.Next, although I fully agree that costs have to be considered, in a project of that size and scope you are going to be spending many tens of thousands of dollars just on the steel for the boat hull, never mind all the outfitting of the boat!  Just spend the money to get the right tools for the job/project.  I'd say that the 200/210 class machines will be just adequate for most of the material sizes you listed, but will not handle that 3/4" plate well (that's your keel bottom, right?).  Depending on your skill and speed, the machine may also run into duty-cycle limits on some of your longer welds, even on the 'little' 1/8" hull plate.  Move up to the 250-class or better machines and you're probably going to never have the machine holding you back on duty cycle or capabilities.The NR-212 Innershield wire is NOT seismic/v-notch rated.  If you want or need a FCAW wire with seismic/v-notch ratings, you have to use a different wire.  Maybe the Lincoln Innershield NR-203MP E71T-8J wire, but the smallest diameter listed is 0.068" (1.7mm).  Or go to one of the dual-shield wires that is seismic/v-notch/ship rated (Lloyd's, ABS, etc, etc).
Reply:I´d take this one... http://www.weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10090can´t beat the price... won´t get better...with the rest you could get some pretty useful tools and a extension...goos luckMy Babies: HF Drill pressHF Pipe Bender3   4.5" Black and Decker angle grindersLincoln Electric PROMIG 175that´s it!
Reply:Or go to one of the dual-shield wires that is seismic/v-notch/ship rated (Lloyd's, ABS, etc, etc).
Reply:Gustavolm- I have the exact setup you are considering. I have had my MM210 for 3+ years and never had a single problem with it. After using a Bernard gun with my MM140, I also purchased the Q-300 gun. The guns are very nice and rotatable head is a really nice feature. The tips are much beefier than the standard Miller ones, not that I had any trouble with them either.The sailboat is a awesome adventure to embark on. I helped my grandfather with building a 45' Staysail Schooner when I was younger- of course that was out of solid mohagany, oak and teak- no steel in there !! Still, It was a huge challenge and alot of fun. Where are you planning on building this?Cheers,KevMiller 210 and 140 MigsBernard Q-Torches on bothMiller Syncrowave 200Spoolmate 3035 for sale, excellent condtion- PM for detailsThermal Dynamics 38XLShop OutFitters 20/20 Bending SystemLots of other cheap and not so cheap tools Still have LOTS to learn, but got some nice stuff to learn on!
Reply:I spent quite some time going through all the trials and tribulations of the steel boat those two women built.  If your construction process will be anything similar, I suggest:1.  Hard mig wire with shielding gas will weld all those poor fitup, multiple pass welds better than fluxcore...no slag to remove.2.  As someone suggested earlier, this boat project will require miles of stringer beads.  Make sure whatever welding machine you buy has a great enough duty cycle that you are not constantly waiting for the machine to cool.3.  A plasma cutter seems like a necessity even if most of the pieces are pre-cut.WeldingWeb forum--now more sophomoric banter than anything else!
Reply:Originally Posted by WeldordieGustavo,I ran across this site a while ago, and found it fascinating.  Perhaps, you will, too.  Two gals in Canada building a steel hulled sailboat, and doing a great job.http://www.thebigsailboatproject.com/sail1.htmDave