|
|
Howdy all,Dont feel like paying someone a heap of dough to do something I can do on a mill at work. Only prob is I'm not 100% sure of set up to get required results.Basically just want the merge collector. My idea is set it up in a dividing head with the head set at 15 degree incline and turn the head 90 degree to get the collector allignment for the next pipe... hopefully all 4 pipes will form a neat merge.Any input would be appreciatedLast edited by fezi46; 06-03-2007 at 03:19 AM.
Reply:Only prob is I'm not 100% sure
Reply:I honestly think its a job better left to a die grinder. You're going to need to go back in with a die grinder after milling anyways to knock off all the burrs. Small metal shards are obviously not something you want headed towards your turbo inlet.
Reply:There was a post(or link) on here a while back with all the calculations on where to make the individual pipe cuts to obtain a flawless collector. It was sort of a mini tutorial for what your trying to do. I will look around and see if I still can find it for you.
Reply:They are straight cuts - not notches, so you're better off sawing them...
Reply:Or are you trying to mill the grooves in the flange? Cutting circles on a mill on a large part like that is tricky without a CNC. Otherwise, you need a turn-table or something and a mill large enough to clear the header as it spins.
Reply:Originally Posted by 76GMC1500Or are you trying to mill the grooves in the flange? Cutting circles on a mill on a large part like that is tricky without a CNC. Otherwise, you need a turn-table or something and a mill large enough to clear the header as it spins.
Reply:only got small amount of spare time at work and cant afford to stuff it up so searching for someone with the runs on the board so to speak...
Reply:You don't need a mill to make a merge collector. Band saw or cut-off saw, I make them all week. It's easy once you've done it. John - fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!- bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Well then explane to the gentleman how its done.. ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Okay! This is how I do it...I take the pipe in my hand, look at it, determine how many pipes are going to the merge (put them up against each other), mark it with a black Sharpie (at an angle) but with a straight edge and then...here is the tricky part...cut it off! What do you need? I'll make you a 4 pipe collector for $60.John - fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!- bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:What do you need? I'll make you a 4 pipe collector for $60.
Reply:I have to make 2 tonight...I might as well make a 3rd one! John - fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!- bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:This one has me scratching my head 'cause I'm more of a carpenter than a pipe fitter.What you seem to have is a pentagon -- so I'd be inclined to draw a pentagon -- five sided figure. The center where the tubes all meet is the center of the pentagon. The tubes also diverge from the pentagon -- what I might call a spring angle -- as they move away from it.There's a very crappy drawing of the join I tried at.The angles for the join of each tube would be 360 divided by five joins divided by two sides of each pipe = 360/5/2= 36 degrees. The "spring angle" as I call it would be very small as the tubes appear to diverge very little from the join -- let's say 10 degrees.The tricky part that still has me scratching my head is how much to cut from each cylinder -- the tubes -- at each cut to maximize the tube volume at the join. Common sense would tell me 1/5th of the pipe diameter as there are five pipes. For example, if there were only two pipes, cut through half the diameter of each to join two into one. Hmm, I'm not sure that is what you want as this two into one example would give you a final diameter of one pipe -- I'm pretty sure you don't want five into one with a final diameter of one pipe. This one has me stumped on the math. My inclination if I had a bunch of pipe to play with would be to make two compound cuts off the pipe at 36 degrees to the long axis of the pipe and 10 degrees to the perpendicular axis of the pipe and have to experiment with how much of the diameter of the pipe to remove. The first I would try is 1/5th the pipe and see what that did.If faced with this task, I would make a jig with those settings and and experiment from there.I guess that's not a whole lot of help. But it is a puzzle I've been puzzling since the last time I saw a similar question. Attached ImagesFavorite right now is a Miller Syncro 200.Tons of tools and I blame at least one of them when things don't go right.
Reply:Ah, crap. It's six into one. I can't even count anymore and I was thinking of a four cylinder with a dump.Same concept. 360/6/2=30 degrees.Favorite right now is a Miller Syncro 200.Tons of tools and I blame at least one of them when things don't go right.
Reply:Phila - you also must consider the final size of the total pipes, cut too much and it doesn't fit the collector or flange, cut too little and it doesn't fit the collector or flange. John - fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!- bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Yeah, that's where it all falls part for me but ignoring for the moment how much to cut from each diameter, the angles at which they meet should remain constant regardless of the distance between the center of each pipe and the center of the join.In other words, a six sided figure has vertex angles and internal angles that remain contant, no matter how big or small that six sided figure is. A square always has vertex angles of 90 degrees and internal angles of 90 degrees (if you connect the corners with straight lines in side the square, the lines meet at 90 degree angles internally) no matter how big it is . . . yadda, yadda, yadda.The geometry is beyond me so what I'd be inclined to do is experiment with a jig for repeatability and see if I could "discover" the relationship between how much to cut and final diameter.Actually I just thought of a good experiment that can be done on paper (or actually in CAD).Draw a six sided figure of arbitrary size (but bigger than the desired output flange diameter) and draw lines from its center to each corner vertex. Draw a circle around that using the same center; the diameter of that circle is the desired diameter of hte output flange. Draw six circles each with diameter of the pipes being used and use the "move" function to arrange those circles into the desired relationship around the six sided figure but within the output flange circle. Use the measure functions of the CAD program to figure out how much of each pipe gets cut off (if done right, each should be identical).I bet there's a way to just calculate all this, but it's far beyond me.Last edited by phila.renewal; 06-05-2007 at 09:27 AM.Favorite right now is a Miller Syncro 200.Tons of tools and I blame at least one of them when things don't go right.
Reply:Originally Posted by MicroZone Okay! This is how I do it...I take the pipe in my hand, look at it, determine how many pipes are going to the merge (put them up against each other), mark it with a black Sharpie (at an angle) but with a straight edge and then...here is the tricky part...cut it off! What do you need? I'll make you a 4 pipe collector for $60.
Reply:Does this look rough and need to be filled extensively? edit - this is a dual 3" to 4" outlet merge made for a truck.John - fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!- bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:This is how you make a wrap a round layout for making collectors It's been a few years since I have to make one my self. This in not to scale or 100 % right I just drew it up really quickly. This is best layed out on some light gage sheet that is easy to roll. Then you have a template to slide over your pipe if you need to make allot of them. LOL i just realized i made a big oops i have my Center lines messed up R = radius of pipe C = circumference of pipe The lower 60* = 6 sections ( 360* / 6 = 60* ) Lower 30* dashed line is center line of the 60* Upper 30* is 360* / 12 = 30* The 12 comes from the number of times I divided "C" by 15* = the angle you want to bring your pipe in at. The lower half circle is the OD of the end of your collectorLast edited by Unicron; 06-06-2007 at 03:53 PM.
Reply:Here are a few more, made both of these in about 30 minutes (edit: last night). They are for the hot side of a single turbo kit to merge the exhaust from both sides of a V-8 motor and into a single T4 flange. Top merge finished, bottom merge almost done:Some MIG welds, quick and easy, mild steel: If you've done enough of these, as I have, you don't need any special tools, mills, angle finders, die and water or wrap around jig pieces. You take the pipe, figure out your final OD on the outlet, angle of merge and mark it - then cut and weld. It is worth it to practice, grab some cardboard tubes and give it a shot, see how they fit together.Last edited by MicroZone; 06-06-2007 at 04:53 PM.John - fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!- bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Micro post up some pics of your merge collectors
Reply:I don't have any pics right now, but I'll go out in the shop after dinner and build you some. John - fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!- bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:I believe the collector in the original post was milled using an indexing head - the guy who makes them is a member on a board I used to read.
Reply:eg, this is from part of the thread where some idiots turned it into an "I can make one for cheaper" debate Originally Posted by 6boost...I pay to have my collectors machined in an indexing head, they have 12 cuts per collector, 1 degree out on each one, you do the math, they have taken a long time, and a lot of money to get right. Then, I don't just mig my manifolds up, which it looks like you do in your pics, I PAY someone who has an idea to do them, the cost of TIG welding alone is $240-$260 per 6 cylinder manifold, feel free to give Jeff a call, Profab Custom Engineering, his number is (07)46301600, you look like you could do with a decent welder....If I was going to make this (which I'm planning on doing some day to a 4 cyl.) here's how I'd do it (but for a six). 1. Set the angle of my chop saw to the degrees of the merge (10, 15, 20, whatever you want, lower the better). So lets say 10.2. Make a stop with some sort of clamp so I cut all the pieces the same distance from one end. Cut all the way through, don't worry about final opening size just yet.3. Once you make one cut in the pipe, you rotate the pipe (in the case of a 6 into 1) 59.23 degrees and make another cut. This is probably the hardest part because it would have to be dead accurate. I wish I had some sort of formula for this but the way I found the angle was I drew the pipes in Autocad 3d and measured what the angle was for a 10 degree merge for 6 pipes. 4. Do this 6 times, then tack them together. Your collector will be closed at this point. Thats when I would cut the end off at whatever distance gives you the opening size you want.If you really want it smooth, port the inside after welding. Here a picture from the burns stainless website of what their high dollar collectors look like. I haven't made this yet because the engine I'm building isn't anywhere near the exhaust stage, so I recommend taking my advise with a grain of salt and practicing it on some cardboard tubes first. Steve
Reply:browny - from the thread on another forum? The guy, 6boost, sounds a bit too arrogant with his money. I can cut within a few hundredth of an inch on my band saw, I don't need a machine or index head to get a nice looking collector. Again, the guy sounds a bit too arrogant or jealous someone is getting a merge or collector for less money. John - fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!- bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Just messing around a few minutes with my Bend-Tech software, came up with this. It will give you a cut template to wrap around the tube for cutting. More tubes can be added easily. It is a straight cut, not a notch, as you can see in pic two.Last edited by MicroZone; 06-06-2007 at 08:39 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by MicroZonebrowny - from the thread on another forum? The guy, 6boost, sounds a bit too arrogant with his money. I can cut within a few hundredth of an inch on my band saw, I don't need a machine or index head to get a nice looking collector. Again, the guy sounds a bit too arrogant or jealous someone is getting a merge or collector for less money.
Reply:Right, that makes sense now. I know the car forums are quite a different breed. John - fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!- bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Dooly! Got some replys. Microzone, they do look neat and in all honesty would suit me well. Browny what forum is the "6boost" fella from?Talked to another fella at work today, setting it all up hopefully next week. (We just finished boxing up the outage and fingers crossed will spin it up over the weekend so that means more freetime at work) Dug out an indexing head with three jaw chuck and swiveling base from the tool store, also found a 150mm crabide milling head lurking in the tool store.If all goes to plan will be milling thursday... Pic of the turbine where this idea was hatched
Reply:6boosts posted a bit on calaisturbo but I got sick of the site a while back so don't know if he still does.
Reply:I'm curious to see how your tubes turn out when trying the milling operation. Are you just doing it that way to get the angles right? I would think that you'll have trouble with the thin wall of the tube not holding up to the forces of the cutter resulted in a twisted, bent up tube. Don't ask how I know this - but it is from notching thin walled structural tube not collectors. I think you'd be better off mounting your indexing head and chuck on a heavy flat plate which you would then use on a vertical band saw, or clamp it to a horizontal band saw. I'm not sure how to describe what I mean by that, but maybe you get my drift.
Reply:Parden the hijack...Fezi46 what station is that? Looks like the exciter is all appart and the generator cooling (tubesheet) is opened up. The crazy thing is that baby could have been back together and online in 24 hours! Man, I miss that kinda work! I'm guessing 400 - 500MW units? Could be bigger...In a past life I did air and water in-leakage testing on the condensor and feed water headers while the units were running. Shot a lot of helium. Love that 60 cycle buzz. Thanks for the pic That aint heat lightning in the neighborhood tonight...
Reply:here is a collector for you. this is my boat that i built a couple of years ago and used twice since. grenaded the 455 olds that was in it and came across this about the same time and fiqured "why not". best part is it sounds like an indy car screaming down the lake. bearps. it's for saleLast edited by MicroZone; 06-08-2007 at 12:31 PM.
Reply:Bear - I love it, the collector is aMAZEing. Along with everything else that is unique and looks hand fabricated, great job!John - fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!- bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:thanks micro. i don't know if you noticed but i forgot to mention that it is a triton v-10bear
Reply:Yes sir! I noticed it had 5 intake runners going to the heads. Very cool use for a V-10!John - fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!- bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:hey guys i just thought i would let you know that i make and sell 6 into 1 merge collectors with t3 flangefor AU$300.twin 3 into 1 colectors with t4 flange AU$320and 4 into 1 merge collectors for AU$220 with either t3 or t28 flangethey are tig welded and faced flat on the turbo flange.i generally use 32nb (1-1/4") steampipe but 40nb (1-1/2") is no problem for those who prefer the lag
Reply:I just have to say, the MC on that boat is one of the coolest things I've ever seen.
Reply:That must sound really strange.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:HELLO,a comment on the post, you can't mill the thin tubing,it will distort, or whatever. you must insert a solid roundinside the thin wall tubing, and then clamp it with the chuckjaws. this will prevent any distortion. the solid round must be.006 to .010 under the size of id of the tubing. at least this isthe way i did it years ago. i used a hartford chuck to hold the tubing, and milled it on a bridgeport.wlbrown |
|
发表于 2021-8-31 22:58:46