Da Frame

admin

Started on the box frame yesterday, not much to it yet.14ga 2x2 tubing.  Don't want to be single handedly responsible for making the steel supplier dood rich, so I usually use the lightest thing that will work.Some hot glue pics for the flux core fans.  Blue Demon (some sorta  off brand) .030 self shielding wire.Pretty old machine, but it still works real nice.  The settings for all welds on the frame for those who're interested I guess.Still waitin' on that Longevity dood to call  Probably have to turn the dood down though, not too interested in doing the YouTube thing ya know  AND, I AIN'T BY GOD GONNA BUY ANY CHINESE MADE CRAP IF I CAN HELP IT.  (Ok, so I'm stuck with the stinkin Chinese tires, but what ya gonna do??)"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Now would that be a frame for a bench for a certain lathe that has lain fallow and forelorn oh these many moons?Lincoln PrecisionTig 275Miller 251Miller DialArc 250Bridgeport millHossfeld bender & diesLogan shaperJet 14 X 40 latheSouth Bend 9" 'C'Hypertherm 900Ellis 3000 band saw21"Royersford ExcelsiorTwo shops, still too many tools.
Reply:No"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammNo
Reply:THESE WELDS ARE TOO HOT!!!!!!!!I wondered about the appearance of these, and had a little session with the machine.  Thought something was wrong with the machine, the liner, the tip...............Wrongo boyo  The voltage is set too high I do the finger test..........run your finger along the weld, see if it's uniform and a good 45 degree angle.  Do the look test........is it shiny, and uniform.  Then walk away from it.  THEN I REALLY LOOKED AT THE PICSSomething kept bugging me, NO RIPPLES   It should look like there's little ripples in the filler, instead.......looks like a bubbly MIG weld.Post it up tomorrow, the coupons are outside on the bench.It's a pretty good mistake, and should be mentioned.  BIG TIME.Somewhere in the back of my mind I remembered how it should lookPost it all up tomorrow"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammStill waitin' on that Longevity dood to call  Probably have to turn the dood down though, not too interested in doing the YouTube thing ya know  AND, I AIN'T BY GOD GONNA BUY ANY CHINESE MADE CRAP IF I CAN HELP IT.  (Ok, so I'm stuck with the stinkin Chinese tires, but what ya gonna do??)
Reply:Originally Posted by Lanse
Reply:Look at it this way.  I make stuff that rolls on the highway.  It's pretty sensitive stuff.  Your life depends on it if you're following me.I noticed that my welds didn't look like what I'm used to.  My typical wire weld.  1/4 flat joined to 14ga tubing.This set off some alarm bells, and it deserved some discussion.A good flux core wire weld (self shielding) should look like a good 7018 weld in miniature.  I'm doing something wrong here, and it's time to correct it.I wasn't seeing what I was used to seeing, so I set out to set it right.  I didn't simply put it out there as another "sorta ok weld"  Not quoting, but you know what I mean.If you want to make this your lifestyle, way to make a living, etc...........  Get on the ball, and get real.  Don't slough it off as "something good enough"."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:If K'kins had sons interested in doing this stuff I'd be talking to them the same way"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I think it's important to post stuff that didn't work along with the stuff that did - and explain it. I like that you pointed out your error - you are correct, people do come to this website (and others) to learn to weld.Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Keep it rolling samm..........
Reply:Thanks, I come here every other day hoping to learn andf improve my welding skills. I also enjoy the comradery between all the men that have years of experience and responsibilty of the trade to share and educate others.
Reply:Here's the dealThe weld in POST #8 is how it should be, a bit too much angle on the gun pushing the metal back and causing the well defined ripples, but a decent weld.It's raining today, so I had to grab this off the table and bring it inside.  Before closing down yesterday I had to dial in the welder.  I was very unhappy.  Ran some quick and dirty beads on some scrap.The carnage  The rain got to it, but it'll do for nowNow this weld is wrong.  The heat is too high.  Notice the lack of a smooth finish.  It looks like it's been bubbling, which it wasThis weld is in the zone.  I turned the heat down one tap.  Wire speed the same.  Notice the fine ripples, and the "hard" look to the surface.  This is how it should look. Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Flux core won't run as fast or hot as MIG unless it's gas shielded flux core.  It's one of the drawbacks.Pushing the wire speed and heat will result in the above.  Also you'll notice the wire tending to burn back inside the tip if it's pushed too hard."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Anyways.......................A word about tabsIf you're working with thin wall tubing, and have to attach something to it (in this case, an axle) that's going to exert a lot of stress, it's necessary to reinforce the area.First off, you don't want to load the tubing at a narrow focused point.  If you don't spread the force out it will crush the tubing wall, or result in tearout.Also, the axle is 5/8 cold roll, and it has to be welded with stick (or a hot MIG).  You need a good backing to take the heat.  The 14ga tubing simply won't stand up to the heat required to properly weld the cold roll.In addition........see how the tab is welded to the tubing.  It's welded to the side shoulders, not across the width.  This is to help eliminate distortion in the tubing.  If you weld across the tubing it will pull pretty bad, and you're left with a straightening job.Last edited by farmersamm; 04-23-2013 at 11:09 AM.Reason: spelling"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Good info samm.......thanks for sharing.HF 180 amp/240 volt Mig (cap mod)1987 Harley FLHTP (project)1990 F350 XLT Lariat S/C dually1990 S&S 11SC Cabover Camper2011 Ford Ranger S/C XLT
Reply:The last pic in Post #13 is a good example of the warping effect of welding across the width of tubing.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Nice reminder My 4x8 utility trailer has a small bow where I welded the spring hangers on.  It was due to me welding across the 2 x 2 x 1/4" main rails instead of just on the sides...That was 1994 - I've learned better since Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Good description on the weld issues and the fix too.  I'm curious as to the wheel hubs,  How is the hub attached to the axle and who is the manufacture?Thanks, John
Reply:It's just a cheapie HF tire/wheel assembly.  It's held on by a cotter pin and some washers.Beware of these crappy wheels from HF...........THEY REFUSE TO STAY INFLATED FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIMEBut they are cheap  And you can't find American made wheels for love or money"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammFlux core won't run as fast or hot as MIG unless it's gas shielded flux core.  It's one of the drawbacks.
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFab
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammIf you look at the recommended wire speed for NR-211, as opposed to Outershield 71 lets say, you can see the difference.  The Outershield will run faster.I watched a guy run some Outershield, and he was SMOKIN'   It seems the only real limit is how good the guy is who's running it.  If he's good, and welds fast, he can lay on some serious metal.
Reply:Wow a one man thread
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabTrue, but that's comparing flux to dual shield. You said that Flux won't run as hot or as fast as MIG, solid wire. Using your machine (Hobart 135) as an example, FLUX will run much hotter than than solid wire in the short-circuit transfer that your machine is capable of.Originally Posted by farmersammYou're right. I did have the chance to run MIG in pulse, and it was fast and hot, and the other machine that was there ran pretty fast non-pulse, faster than I can run with Innershield even with the suitcase in the .035 and .045 diameters.  I'm not sure what the machines were.I was talking to Billy about his welding when I was at the shop, and assumed this stuff was MIG.  I was surprised to find out it was Outershield, I'm used to the stuff I use outside.  This is some beautiful stuff.Never in a million years could I do this, it's simply beautiful
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammIt's just a cheapie HF tire/wheel assembly.  It's held on by a cotter pin and some washers.Beware of these crappy wheels from HF...........THEY REFUSE TO STAY INFLATED FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIMEBut they are cheap  And you can't find American made wheels for love or money
Reply:Originally Posted by SteelwillVery true statement.
Reply:Samm,FCAW-S wires come in many-many-many 'flavors'.  And they all have their 'correct' parameters.FCAW-G wires also come in many-many-many different 'flavors'.  And they also have their own 'correct' parameters.Apples and mangos there (the oranges were unavailable due to a late spring frost in the citrus-growing regions    ).And further trying to compare solid-wire GMAW to FCAW-S parameters is also like comparing apples and bananas (see above about oranges being unavailable    ).But, in general, FCAW wires run 'hotter' than a similar WFS or amperage for a GMAW wire, due to "current density" through the actual metal sheath of the wire compared to the solid wire diameter.  Many FCAW wires run in a spray-type transfer mode (or semi-spray or maybe down to a globular-type transfer depending on exact parameters being used and if using FCAW-G whether a mixed gas was used or straight CO2 was used).Small wire-feed machines can only do solid wire GMAW in short-circuit transfer mode (maybe nudging into globular sometimes, depending on the exact machine and parameters and gas being used, with more spatter in globular transfer mode than in short-circuit transfer mode).Generally, too high a voltage (for the WFS/amperage and travel speed and CTWD being used, as the parameters are all interdependent during the welding process) for an FCAW-S weld produces porosity and  a wider and flatter bead shape and possibly penetration problems,   Waaaaay too high a voltage can make the bead look 'burnt'.  Too low a voltage (with all the other parameters being held constant) can make the weld bead look too convex and 'ropey' looking and waaay too low of a voltage and you can get the wire stubbing into the workpiece.As long as you had 'good' fusion/penetration into the base/parent material (as determined by watching the puddle , a nice 'smooth' weld surface is -not- a problem.It does look like you are slightly overwelding the joint though.  In general, you only need as much weld metal in the bead as the thickness of the base/parent material (slight exception to cases where there is a strength mismatch between the weld filler and the base material, or if a certain weld bead is specified for other engineering purposes such as for an interrupted weld with shear strength considerations, etc).Excess weld material in the bead just 'wastes' time and money.But I'd generally rather have a slightly 'overwelded' joint than an underwelded one.Oh, and the 'don't weld -across- a beam' is not primarily for distortion reasons, but because of the stress-concentration factor associated with a bead running straight across a 'beam' that is being bent.  Such a straight-across weld bead causes a localized increase in stress and a a decrease in the 'strength' and fatigue life of the 'beam' (in "dynamic" or cyclically-loaded structures).  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:"Generally, too high a voltage (for the WFS/amperage and travel speed and CTWD being used, as the parameters are all interdependent during the welding process) for an FCAW-S weld produces porosity and a wider and flatter bead shape and possibly penetration problems."Limiting the discussion to FCAW-S (self shielding I assume), it's been my experience that too much voltage with this wire will lead to burn thru in thinner stuff, so penetration isn't a problem with the higher voltage from what I've seen.  I'm not sure how it behaves on thicker than 3/16 plate(I never use the wire on anything thicker as a rule), so I don't know about penetration issues on thicker stuff.This assumes the same wire speed, and stickout, is maintained for all voltages examined."It does look like you are slightly overwelding the joint though. In general, you only need as much weld metal in the bead as the thickness of the base/parent material (slight exception to cases where there is a strength mismatch between the weld filler and the base material, or if a certain weld bead is specified for other engineering purposes such as for an interrupted weld with shear strength considerations, etc)."You're right  Me and 99% of the guys out there  You get to running, and it's hard not to make the bead a little biggerIt's a crappy rain day again, so I got time to sit here"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Ok you all lost me with the abbrevations, I was following pretty well until the term (CTWD).  I think someone should start a welding glossary sticky if there isn't one already.Will   Supports Autism Awareness                            My ToysBobCat 225 PLusMillermatic 130Miller Spectrum 300 CutmateEverlast Power Tig 185 Micro April is Autism Month .
Reply:Originally Posted by SteelwillOk you all lost me with the abbrevations, I was following pretty well until the term (CTWD).  I think someone should start a welding glossary sticky if there isn't one already.
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseUse some google-fu or hit Lincoln's or ESAB's websites for all sorts of info (including the acronyms.  WFS = wire feed speedFCAW = flux core arc weldingCTWD = contact tip work distance (aka 'stickout')
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersamm... Beware of these crappy wheels from HF...........THEY REFUSE TO STAY INFLATED FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME...
Reply:Originally Posted by desertscoutI just add a tube...........problem gone.
Reply:Originally Posted by burnt09So the welds in the first post of this thread were too hot. There were no pretty ripples, and the bead was not very inform. Were they not strong, though? To this amatuer,  it looked like there was good fusion, and no undercutting. Maybe the non-uniform bead causes stress risers?
Reply:Actually I weld better and easier with wire than stick.  Especially since much of my welding is on thin sheet metal body parts.   I am better on the heavy stuff too.  Stick I am pretty good, TIG I am still learning and practicing.The trend here seems to be that wire is no good on anything thicker than 1/4" plate.IMHO "G"ConductorX - The Volkswright Shophttp://volkswright.blogspot.com/http://bugwerks.blogspot.com/Miller DVI w/Spoolgun - Miller Plasma Cutter
Reply:Originally Posted by jamesyarbroughWow a one man thread
Reply:Originally Posted by ConductorXActually I weld better and easier with wire than stick.  Especially since much of my welding is on thin sheet metal body parts.   I am better on the heavy stuff too.  Stick I am pretty good, TIG I am still learning and practicing.The trend here seems to be that wire is no good on anything thicker than 1/4" plate.IMHO "G"
Reply:I have a Miller DVI - when needed I run .035 wire with C02 / Argon mix gas @ 240VAC.  I don't think I tried to weld any 3/8 steel yet anyway.  I tried flux core once, and threw that stuff away.  I was having the same problems described by Sam. When I worked on a gooseneck trailer.  Two 1/4" plates at 90 degrees to each other.  I made my first pass down the middle, then a pass down each side of the first weld, and then I made a pass down each side of the "second" welds.  The owner was happy with the welds and the trailer is still in use today."G"ConductorX - The Volkswright Shophttp://volkswright.blogspot.com/http://bugwerks.blogspot.com/Miller DVI w/Spoolgun - Miller Plasma Cutter