Simple drag grader (Kinda). Questions now, project to come soon.

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Ok, so here's the deal. My house is on a gravel road there are approximately 40 houses on side roads along the 3/4 mile it takes to get to my house. The road is well compacted and gets its fair share of pot holes. Now, the... lets call them experienced... individuals how tend to maintain the road just come along with a shovel and some gravel and throw it in the hole and run over it with their riding mower. as you can imagine this doesn't do that good of a job. Now, what I would like to do is take some scrap that I have laying around and turn it into a simple drag grader. pulling it with my ATV. The size will be dependent on the lengths of the stock I have on hand, but I know  it will be at least 4'-5'+ long and anywhere from 4'-5' wide.Now  to the questions.1, what is the advantages of 2 cutting blades vs 1 cutting blade on these simple drags? My plan is to cut 1 flange off some C channel and use that as the cutting blade/s2. If I use 2 blades, am I correct in that the rear blade should be set slightly higher than the forward blade?3. does anyone have any recommendation on the best way situate any extra weights. Forward of the blades, directly above the blades, or behind the blades?4. If I use two blades what are the advantages to having them closer together or further appart?and finally.5. I plan on have the blade/s angled from perpendicular to the direction of pull. Would there be any advantage when useing two blades to having the blades angled in opposite directions?Last edited by ThorsHammer; 04-24-2013 at 02:56 PM.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:When our road was still dirt we used a small tractor with a box scaper to maintain it.  It was barely adequate IF I didn't procrastinate and let the road get too ugly.  Don't know if your idea will work, but in any event I would make add some sort of provision for making one side higher than the other so that you maintain the road's crown (or other drainage).  Personally, I got sick and tired of trying to maintain a road used by a bunch of a$$holes who had no idea where the road pixies came from who graded it periodically.Tim
Reply:They way I figure it, it's better than nothing, and if it takes lots of passes so be it. I don't need to get it add done in one pass. I figure at only 5' wide at most I'm not going to mess of the crown enough to cause any problems. It's a double lane road so it should be ok for that. but yeah, and it's a good use for my scrap metal, and a good project for me. I've looked on Youtube and found some pretty low tech drag graders that do a really good job. so like I said, It's better than nothing.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:If you're not going to have wheels and a height adjustment I'd go with more than two blades. You need it to float over the holes and rub the high spots. Personally I'd go with 3 or maybe for blades in a frame say 3-4' front to back.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammerThey way I figure it, it's better than nothing, and if it takes lots of passes so be it. I don't need to get it add done in one pass.
Reply:Originally Posted by irish fixitIf you're not going to have wheels and a height adjustment I'd go with more than two blades. You need it to float over the holes and rub the high spots. Personally I'd go with 3 or maybe for blades in a frame say 3-4' front to back.
Reply:Yes I realize that this guys driveway is loose gravel, and I wont get the same effect (right away at least) but it's the inspiration.[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be7VdPP8XCA[/ame]There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:See if this gives you some better ideas.http://www.drpower.com/Content.aspx?...m_medium=email
Reply:I've looked at the DR's and to be frank, I don't want to put that much into it. I'm going to add drop down wheels to be able to move it without it tearing up the grass and what not.I'm thinking about adding some rakes in the front to help losen up the gravel before it gets to the blade/s. But other than those, I want it to be as simple as possible.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Once it's packed down you really need teeth to loosen up the top material so a blade can spread it and then recompact. We used to do stone drives with the 941 loader with teeth to break up the original material, then spread it back out with the box scraper before we'd roll it all. Even with the teeth all the way down and extra weight on the box scraper, it wouldn't make a dent.  You needed the HP and push of the loader to tear it all up. Any loose material you pushed in the holes just washed back out.Part of the reason for this is that you don't get a good mix of material when you just scrape the surface into the holes. You need both the large and small aggregate in there to knit together. If you just have a bunch of big stuff it rolls around like marbles and pops out. If you have a ton of fines it gets muddy and soupy and splashes out. You need both the large stuff for support as well as the fines and small stuff to lock it all together. Even if you get the right mix in the hole, it's tough to get it well compacted when the material around it is rock hard. Rollers bridge the surface or the holes and even foot tampers can't get the sides well compacted. If the material doesn't pack well, it will simply wash back out. Water gets in the soft stuff that couldn't pack and it either pops in a freeze or gets soupy in the rain and gets forced out.Unless you do this right you'll just continue to have an ongoing loosing battle..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammerI'm confused as to why I would need more blades. The side rails will cause it to float over the holes while still hitting the high spots. The blade sitting down 1/2" or less below the rails will pick up the materal and cause it to flow over the blade. dispursing it and not creating a massive weight behind the tow vehicle. Meh, if it doesn't work it doesn't work, and it was a fun project anyway. but if it does, I can hit the road every couple of months and keep the neighbors happy and the suspesion from yelling at me when I'm driving down the road.
Reply:It all proves that we need paving on all of our driveways. Mine is 3/4 of a mile long and up hill both directions. It is mostly clay soil so we put probably a hundred 10 yard loads of pit run on it in 35 years. It takes a rubber tired skidder or a cat to rip it up and yet every year the clay will come up someplace new, which almost instantly makes a pot hole . If we could do it again we would buy flat land.   Mac
Reply:Originally Posted by Tool MakerIt all proves that we need paving on all of our driveways. Mine is 3/4 of a mile long and up hill both directions. It is mostly clay soil so we put probably a hundred 10 yard loads of pit run on it in 35 years. It takes a rubber tired skidder or a cat to rip it up and yet every year the clay will come up someplace new, which almost instantly makes a pot hole . If we could do it again we would buy flat land.   Mac
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammerI wish. Personally we wish the county would come in and pave it but they wont so we're stuck.
Reply:I maintain my driveway with a 500 pound box blade and a 30 horsepower diesel tractor.  It takes all the power of that tractor.  The key is to go really, and I mean really, really slow. Until the box blade is full of gravel, it doesn't even begin to make a difference.  I can't imagine anything that could be pulled by a 4 wheeler could do this job, and unless it is geared extremely low, you will simply be skipping over the surface.
Reply:An I beam and chain link fence, make it all kinds of adjustable. An I beam has two "cutting edges" floats just fine on them without "skates" chain link fence to knock down the windrows the beam will create. Presto cheap "grader".  No wheels needed throw the beam on top the fence it will glide right over grass.  However if the crown is destroyed the road will deteriorate faster. Angle the beam to roll the material towards the center of the road. The hydraulic scarifier (teeth) on my box scraper are mostly worthless unless you are farming.  Running a box grader well takes lots of practice it really helps to have a fully adjustable one.  I maintain 5 miles of roads with a customized box grader with tilt behind a 12000# tractor so most important thing save the crown. I have maybe 1500#s of down pressure so more weight is good round bar and barbell weights work.  Get hillbilly and burn up an old coil spring mattress throw some cinder blocks on it. I groom snowmobile trails with a home made rig like this. But... dont throw $ at it because you will become sick of being the road pixie! I am!
Reply:The only money I'm putting into this is for the tires, Everything else I already have. as far as materials go. 3" or 4" channel, angle iron, jacks, ect. It's getting more and more complicated as I go on, but at this point it's going to have a drop down/adjustable rake blade. and drop down/adjustable tires and two angled blades. After measuring the materials I have to do this project it with, the length will be 6' and the width will be somewhere between 40" and 48" depending on the angle of the blades (48" blades)and like I said, if it works, it works. If it doesn't I'll be a fun project to build and I can use it on the next property where the road wont be as compacted.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammerThe only money I'm putting into this is for the tires, Everything else I already have. as far as materials go. 3" or 4" channel, angle iron, jacks, ect. It's getting more and more complicated as I go on, but at this point it's going to have a drop down/adjustable rake blade. and drop down/adjustable tires and two angled blades. After measuring the materials I have to do this project it with, the length will be 6' and the width will be somewhere between 40" and 48" depending on the angle of the blades (48" blades)and like I said, if it works, it works. If it doesn't I'll be a fun project to build and I can use it on the next property where the road wont be as compacted.
Reply:As I've stated multiple times already. If it works, great. If it doesn't no big deal.There are far to many products on the market for me to think that this isn't going to work. I'm just not willing to drop over a grand on them when I can make something similar with scrap I've got around the shop already. they have many designs, and many different models. for towing behind mowers, and ATV's and trucks. Not just tractors with a 3p. or skid steers. A box blade is a totally different beast than a drag grader. It pulls all the material that it has loosened with it. This requires more power. It also digs deeper in a single pass. Again requiring more power. As I've already stated, I'm not looking to do this in a single pass. No need to dig super deep on the first or even the third pass. I'm not reinventing the wheel here guys. I'm just combining a couple in a manner that will allow me the best possible outcome. I have no reservations on whether or not this is going to work. I hope it does. but if it doesn't, no big loss. If nothing else it can be used to level fresh gravel when it comes in or dirt if we ever have to do any major projects in the yard again.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Originally Posted by AceAn I beam and chain link fence, make it all kinds of adjustable. An I beam has two "cutting edges" floats just fine on them without "skates" chain link fence to knock down the windrows the beam will create. Presto cheap "grader".
Reply:Originally Posted by chuckholeDitto on the I-beam and chain-link. Works great. I use two pipes with chain link fence for light smoothing manure or grass seed. I pull those around with our Kubota RTV. I also use a box blade on my tractor but gave that up after getting a landscape rake. They are fantastic for smoothing out roads and work well with crushed rock. You might be able to incorporate the same type of rake on a drag as well. Loose chain pieces or something similar in addition to the blade. You could drag a blade and a chain drag all at once.For a wheeled drag, you need to get the wheels spread out so that uneven ground will not effect it as much. For a trailer type drag, the blade needs to be between the hitch and the wheels and the weights just slighly in front of the blade. You can use sand bags or concrete blocks to add so weight to the blade. You will want a very shallow blade (height wise) so that the material will easily top the blade once there is too much build up. Otherwise you will be pulling more that an ATV can handle. More drags in many directions is better than trying to do it all at once. If you can get ahold of some, train track material works great as well. When I am not dragging that around, it makes a good anvil.
Reply:Hey Thor,I built one a while back using a 5x6x1/2" section of angle that I got cheap. Have it like this, "/\", on the ground. Shortish panels on the ends to keep the gravel in-board. I had plate "skids" on it but removed them so the blade would be directly on the surface. Angle frame, forward of the blade. Two mounting plates on the front of the frame with hitch pins. Triangle frame hooked to this and went to the ball hitch on my truck. There's a short axle on each end of the angle iron blade that wheel barrow wheels slip on and off. I just have to lift the ends a bit to slip the wheels on.Things I found and will change: Get rid of the ball hitch; swings too much side to side. Gonna replace with two arms from each side of the frame tube of my hitch. Idea is to keep the blade exactly behind the truck. Also, sharpen the front leg of the angle iron blade so it cuts in better. Plus add a 1/2" plate with 5/8" round bar "teeth" that will bolt to the blade to act as rippers. Do a few passes with the teeth, then remove and smooth with the blade. As well, I'm going to make it so I can raise the blade up a couple feet off the ground. This will let me just turn around in the truck without having to mount the wheel, disconnect the hitch, move the plow out of the way, turn the truck around, move the blade back and hook up, and remove tires. Will save all those steps! Bonus!!! Might add some bins to add rocks or round bar posts to hold exercise weight plates, to ad more weight if I find it's needed. That's all I can think of. Hope it helps somehow. Good luck with it. Nice thing about using what you got laying around is it's cheap and you can cut it apart to redesign. Let us know how it goes. 200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:AND....... if all goes well, I want to make a snow plow attachment for it. Hand shoveling a 1/4" driveway sucks!!!200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:I'm not going to sugar coat it.  You are wasting your time.  If it does anything at all, it will net you the same result as dumping a shovel full of gravel in the hole and stomping on it.The way I see it, you have a couple options.You could make friends with the county grader operator....Or you could lobby to get the road paved.I've built and repaired a few drag behind graders and none of them work very well on anything but loose/fresh material.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Here's the best tool I found for gravel driveway and all around yard use. A landscape rake. The thing is awesome for cleaning up the branches from my two old willows . The teeth loosen the gravel and level . You could even add gauge wheels to some. http://www.servis-rhino.com/products...ndscape-rakes/I'm going to have an adjustable rake on the drag, but it will be more for breaking up the pack, than to use as raking branches/brush.Boost,Wasting time is kinda the point. I need a project. I've got metal, and an idea. (two of the most dangerous things to give a welder, the third being extra time) If it works, great. If it doesn't Nothing lost and practice gained.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Bert,post some pictures.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Originally Posted by Boostinjdm......If it does anything at all, it will net you the same result as dumping a shovel full of gravel in the hole and stomping on it.The way I see it, you have a couple options.You could make friends with the county grader operator....Or you could lobby to get the road paved.
Reply:Originally Posted by chuckholeI am on a first name basis with our grader operator. I am lucky to get the county to put crushed rock and roll it to my entrance gate. They certainly won't do my driveways (two entrances, 3 electric meter right of ways) and the roads on the property. I don't even have the luxury of having rock on most of them and I have a backhoe, tractor and dump truck to work with.And depending on the operator, you may not want them. We had one for a while that made matters worse. And a $250k Maintainer is just a big blade that cuts and pushes the stuff around same as the small stuff on tractors (just does a better job of it with a nice ride). And the county paving work may not be  so good either. Where our country place is, they use oil sand on the back roads. It does not last that long before it becomes filled with "chuckholes". Now you know how I got my logon name.I have done better work with my landscape rake that the last Maintainer operator could. It was a shame. We pray for rain to come on the pastures and in the ponds but don't want it on the driveways. My wife always says something about eatin cakes
Reply:Do a quick internet search for "grading scrapers". The DR looked a little flimsy to me, search for BEFCO, Landpride or Woods to get  to get some ideas / dimensions and then scale from thereI have a ~600 foot long driveway that is very steep and tended to wash out during heavy rains before I added water bars and some open top (box) culverts that can handle the runoff.  I have the 5 foot BEFCO grader scraper, wouldn't trade it for the world.  Used to spend 4 or 5 hours with every tool mentioned (I beam, drag screen, scrape blade, etc, etc) to keep the driveway in shape, now it takes me maybe 30 minutes to work it back into shape.  The nice thing about the grader scraper is that it requires no skill to operate it.  Just drop it on the driveway and take off.  The ripping shanks help if you need to dig it up some but plan on having having some hp to pull the grader.  I use a 42 hp Kubota 4wd and with the rippers down it puts a load on it.  With out the rippers I can pull it with an 8N Ford. Also the grader works best when the soil is slightly damp, it seems to compact better. The 2 blades help redistribute the gravel and fines, and on the BEFCO they are on about a 15 degree angle to move the gravel around.   The length of the grader keeps it from digging in like a box blade or scrape blade.  There have been several build it yourself threads over on the Tractorbynet forum.Go for it, you will get some experience, and as it has been said before, it didn't happen if you don't have pictures.Last edited by NC4AB; 04-26-2013 at 09:22 PM.Andy-------------------------Miller Bobcat 250 / Dynasty 200DXHobart HH 140Hypertherm PowerMax 380Kalamazoo 8C BandsawHowron Bender / Hossfeld #2 Bender
Reply:Well, I picked up the last couple of things that I needed for this project on my lunch and will be starting the build this weekend. I'll try to get some pictures of the build in progress, but I suck at stopping to take pictures. however, once it's completed I'll get video of the first run to see how well it goes. I'm making it a little more complex than planned but overall it's going to be a fairly simple design. wish me luck.Last edited by ThorsHammer; 05-17-2013 at 07:54 PM.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:I made one like in the video and made the font bar by the A-frame with tines that broke everything up.  I had to put a lot of weight on it to make it work and it was really working my fourwheeler.  Everyone loved it and came to use it.  It was only good for drives.  I would hate to try and use it on a road.  did you see how many times that feller went over his drive?  and it wasnt that bad to start.
Reply:His video was edited too. but yeah, I know using it is going to be rough and it's going to take time, but hey, when I can build it for less than $100 instead of buying one (the cheapest I could find was $1400+) It's well worth my time.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:First stick welds in almost 15 years. Not horrible but need work. Burned through in one spot. Some spots seem cold. And my travel speed consistency needs work. 7014 rod on 3/32 web of 3.5" x 1.5" channel. Luckily there is no possibility of anyone getting injured if a weld fails on this project so I'm ok with re learning my stick welding on it. Attached ImagesThere are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:The problem with going light on a compacted road, is that it will bring up all the "ball bearing" gravel with none of the fines.  It will look flat when you're done, but won't last long.  If you can pull some weight that cuts and relevels everything, then it will recompact nice.  But anything is better than a landscape rake and a shovel.     I grade roads with a loader, with the bucket almost flat, a little cut angle.  I also have a light tractor with a two blade float that a lot of guy's like.  I just think it overworks the gravel, separating out the fines.
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammerWasting time is kinda the point. I need a project. I've got metal, and an idea. (two of the most dangerous things to give a welder, the third being extra time).
Reply:Here are two pics from the drag my brother just made. Has his first welder and has been making stuffIt's just round rod welded to a hunk of iron for teeth and welded to old walkway grate.Works good but has to be pulled by his truck Dave J.Pic one Attached ImagesDave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Pic two - look hard, it's under there Dave J. Attached ImagesDave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Here's where it sits right now. The blades are on. The wheels are mounted including the raising/lowering device. What's left. Mounting the front rake figuring out how I'm going to raise and lower it and building the tongue and dedicated hitch. Attached ImagesThere are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:And a side view. I've gone through about 3/4 of a 5lbs box of rod at this point and am feeling like I'm getting up to snuff. Even took the opportunity to do out of position welds even though I could have easily moved the project around to make them in position. It was to dark out when I finally got the camera out to take more pictures so ill post some pics tomorrow of the welds. Attached ImagesThere are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:You really need the right machine for the job.  Something like this :http://www.ebay.com/itm/Huber-Grader...#ht_363wt_1172- MondoLast edited by Mondo; 05-20-2013 at 02:10 PM.Reason: add pictureMember, AWSLincoln ProMIG 140Lincoln AC TombstoneCraftsman Lathe 12 x 24 c1935Atlas MFC Horizontal MillCraftsman Commercial Lathe 12 x 36 c1970- - - I'll just keep on keepin' on.
Reply:yeah.... The neighbor that lives in a shed (literally a shed) has a grader... I've yet to see it move under it's own power. and he's in his 80's so I highly doubt it ever will.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Finished it up last night. The Rake is Spring loaded so it doesn't rely on the screw jack to raise up. This allows the jack to be free floating on the rake side to allow for the lateral movement of the jack in conjuction with the longitudinal movement of the rake in it's arch. The tongue has pins that come out to allow the grader to lay flat on the ground while in use, or be pinned up while moving over the lawn or to and from different locations. and of course the obligatory weld close up. Just remember, this is all built from scrap so some of the peices have chunks of other metal still attached. Attached ImagesThere are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:looks good,   here in Colorado where we have dirt and clay not soil, the rebar would bet bent in 2 seconds flat,   but it looks like up in the NW you have real soil that is much softer.....   If they do bend,  consider replacing with some solid rectangular steel welded on its edge.if you end up needing stronger springs,  the ones used to lift tailgates on horse trailers work good or cut down a garage door lift spring.We want too see a video of it in action too!Last edited by soutthpaw; 05-21-2013 at 12:47 PM.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:The rake isn't intended to do much more than scrape the surface. The teeth aren't long enough to get down more than an inch or so before it starts building up material on the bar. The blades only go down 3/8" below the skids. and are only about 2" tall vertically so there shouldn't be to much material being moved along with the grader. I may end up adding some chain link fence or carpet or something like that behind it just to act as a final smoothing item, but we'll see. I'll post a video of the first use within a week or so. but I'm optimistic that it's going to be just want the doctor ordered.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveHere are two pics from the drag my brother just made. Has his first welder and has been making stuffIt's just round rod welded to a hunk of iron for teeth and welded to old walkway grate.Works good but has to be pulled by his truck Dave J.Pic one
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawI have been looking for one of those grates for ages to make a cutting table and he wasted it on a drag.
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawI have been looking for one of those grates for ages to make a cutting table and he wasted it on a drag.
Reply:i use something similar to break up the driveway when its softer after a bunch of rain, then a home made steel drag to flatten it out. Whatever is hand for weight works pulled with a 660 grizzly and its almost not enough at times. i will post a picture of that drag tomorrow
Reply:Honestly if your not going to put a crown in the road it doesn't really matter.   its amazing how long a properly graded and crowned road will last and be pothole/washboard free compared to one thats compacted like granite but holds water.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.