Aluminum soldering

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Radiator is off a John Deere telehandler. Replaced a couple times on each machine due to the same failure at the connection point. Decided to try fixing it this time. About time I tried my hand at soldering aluminum. McMaster has a couple aluminum solders listed, so I ordered a little of each along with some flux to see what happens.98/2 Zinc/Aluminum—Solders aluminum with or without the use of flux. Melting temperature is 732° to 760° F.60/40 Tin/Zinc—Recommended for use with flux, see Soldering Flux for Aluminum. Melting temperature is 390° to 635° F.Can anyone tell from the photos which solder this thing might have been assembled with? I'm going to replace the tubes and solder the ends back on. Any pointers? Torch recommendations? Attached Images
Reply:I have some of the high zinc, it works- but I'd tig that. PeterEquipment:2  old paws2  eyes (that don't look so good)1  bad back
Reply:Originally Posted by castweldI have some of the high zinc, it works- but I'd tig that. Peter
Reply:Originally Posted by castweldI have some of the high zinc, it works- but I'd tig that. Peter
Reply:you could tig it or solder it.  I personally would try soldering it with a victor 201 or 203 gas welding tip and preheat the tip first.  Solder is very strong, I think if you tig welded it the solder would contaminate your weld bead.
Reply:I have had good luck with the Hobart(Selectrode) Aluminum(Zinc?) brazing(soldering) rods.  On electrical stuff not radiators though. http://www.selectrode.com/Search/products/2111.pdfhttp://selectrode.com/Search/msds/2111.pdfLast edited by kald; 06-04-2013 at 10:58 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterX2...You can use .035 aluminum mig wire..Can't get that size in tig filler......zap!
Reply:Ouch that's a bad one. I've used most of the methods available for fixing similar and I'm afraid that TIG is the only one I'd even consider for that one. Just to much stress for a solder. It you could sleeve them then solder would have a chance.   If I was to do that one I would probably TIG it but use Esab All State Alloy 33 for filler. Alloy 33 is a full blown aluminum brazing rod that melts just under the melting point of most aluminum alloys. Normally used with a flux and with careful heating from a torch or furnace. But I've had good luck using it with TIG on refrigeration lines like that.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:Thanks everyone. It is done. I was going to rebend new parts and solder them into the the original locations but after Peter and Zap gave the nod to tig it I figured I'd try. First, I decided to see what kind of heat the solder could handle. I could get it to flow if I was right on it with  the tig but otherwise it held solid. So I tigged it. Only took a couple minutes. I didn't have any small filler. And all I had was 4043. I was too lazy to drive 12 miles to the farm to look for the roll of mig wire. So I globbed it on with 1/16th filler.  It'll hold water better than this morning. I managed to reshape the 1/2" tube and cram some round rod down the center to hold it while welding. I rounded the end of the rod on the grinder so I would drive it through carefully. Worked like a charm. The smaller tube was fattened quite a bit so I straightened it and welded it up full around.Thanks again everyone for your advise. The machine is needed in the morning and this will be a real blessing to have done. Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabYes you can.I have TIG filler down to .030"
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireThanks everyone. It is done. I was going to rebend new parts and solder them into the the original locations but after Peter and Zap gave the nod to tig it I figured I'd try. First, I decided to see what kind of heat the solder could handle. I could get it to flow if I was right on it with  the tig but otherwise it held solid. So I tigged it. Only took a couple minutes. I didn't have any small filler. And all I had was 4043. I was too lazy to drive 12 miles to the farm to look for the roll of mig wire. So I globbed it on with 1/16th filler.  It'll hold water better than this morning. I managed to reshape the 1/2" tube and cram some round rod down the center to hold it while welding. I rounded the end of the rod on the grinder so I would drive it through carefully. Worked like a charm. The smaller tube was fattened quite a bit so I straightened it and welded it up full around.Thanks again everyone for your advise. The machine is needed in the morning and this will be a real blessing to have done.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterAluminum filler?My LWS don't carry it so I just grabbed some mig wire.I do have 70S-2 in .030......zap!
Reply:very well done.Like you mentioned, a solder isn't ideal for a butt joint.but why is this a common fail point?  Is the radiator rubber mounted and not the hold down point of the lines?  Ie, too much vibration in a short distance?  Looks like something kinked the lines.Either way, nicer than I could've done.  I tried shortening a livestock panel down to a man-gate, and not having mig (in the shop), and only having 1/8" tig filler, I just brazed the panels together with an inner sleeve (20ga thickness on the panels).Lincoln SA 200Esab Caddy 160Thermal Arc 201TSMiller Dialarc HFI don't like making plans for the day because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around the courtroom....
Reply:Originally Posted by dubl_tbut why is this a common fail point?  Is the radiator rubber mounted and not the hold down point of the lines?  Ie, too much vibration in a short distance?  Looks like something kinked the lines.
Reply:The radiator was installed this morning. No leaks. Machine did a full day. Still no leaks. Yeah! Thanks again for the nudge to just fix it.
Reply:Good save, I do several like repairs a year.PeterEquipment:2  old paws2  eyes (that don't look so good)1  bad back
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireThanks. It's a maintenance method issue. The radiators have to be moved to get the wand into place to blow them out. They get moved an inch or so and one of the guys was a little brutish. I'll have to drive out to the farm and look at it on the machine. I suspect a support tab or plate can be tacked on the would prevent the issue. These machines have a LOT of hours on them so they've been through the maintenance cycle hundreds of times.
Reply:forhireOn this size tube, and the weld joints proximity to the solder joints;how many 'stops & starts' did it take to keep the heat in check to prevent solder melt-out.Opus
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabYes you can.I have TIG filler down to .030"
Reply:Originally Posted by castweldGood save, I do several like repairs a year.
Reply:Good job on the tig weld. That is definitely the way to go if you have the equipment.Alum brazed radiators are typically dip brazed. The braze house I frequent uses a primarily alum based filler that can be tig welded over and conducts heat and current very well. I imagine most fillers are similar.Here is what they say about the composition. http://www.dipbraze.com/whatis.htmWeld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:I seem to do these almost once a month. Usually AC lines is what I end up doing though. I tig them up using .065" filler aswell, never had an issue. I've welded right over the brazed ends without any issues. Takes a second for it to clean up through the AC cycling, but once you get it going, its pretty easy.Also I normally test them, by putting air through them, and spraying soapy water around the weld area. Sometimes this is a 2 person job.
Reply:Those John Deere telehandlers had many problems...  One I use to run had brakes that couldn't stop you at 5mph but if you tapped them at road speed they would damn near throw you out of the cab.  You also had to spin the steering wheel when starting it or else it wouldn't start...  All hydraulic issues but they never could get it rightwww.burdettenetworks.com
Reply:Originally Posted by forhire The radiator wicked away the heat very quickly.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonGood job on the tig weld. That is definitely the way to go if you have the equipment.Alum brazed radiators are typically dip brazed. The braze house I frequent uses a primarily alum based filler that can be tig welded over and conducts heat and current very well. I imagine most fillers are similar.Here is what they say about the composition. http://www.dipbraze.com/whatis.htmYes it flows almost as well as good silver solder. I've also used it to attach steel fittings back onto the aluminum tubes as well (the fitting was done at the factory the same way). But everything has to be just right for it to work. There's a very narrow temperature range between it flowing and the tube melting so care must be taken to heat slowly and evenly.   I've only had about a 50% success on the heat exchange tubes themselves though. Especially radiator verses condenser tubes are much thinner and very difficult to make it work on. So I've switched to the soldering with low temp flux on them with much better success.  I've found that if you heat those tubes enough to get the high temp stuff to flow then often a new hole  will form not far from the fix. You end up chasing holes forever when that starts happening. As always how well you prep and clean the surface is the real key to making it work.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:is the radiator copper (pics look like all AL)? if copper i would perhaps get the fittings copper plated, then just use std sweat-on with low temp torch. or perhaps sweat-on a copper plate over the inlet and then sweat on a copper fitting.if its not copper then i would perhaps try something like this:weld a AL fitting to a strip of 1/8 or 3/16 AL, then TIG the strip onto the radiator.the key is knowing exactly what type of AL the stuff is.