Quality Tools

admin

http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=19169"Made in the USA ??"   thread made me wonder :How can both professionals and hobbyists alike decide on the quality and value for money of a tool?For the professional he must rely on it to support his enterprise.For the hobbyist he cant afford to make a poor decision as the tool doesn't really generate income and expendable  money is limited.For an apprentice its even more important as you have limited resources and you need to rely on it.Brand names , origin of manufacture, price  and reputation are  all good places to start , but not really the be all and end all.How do others decide?What criteria have you found misleading?BrettA good guess is better than a bad measurement
Reply:After you work with the tools of the trade you get to know what to look for as far as if it is a good heavy duty peice of if it looks flimsy.then after shopping around you will be able to see whats a deal and whats not.Example I looked at a set of vise gips on the Mac truck.they were Mac brand but looking them over I seen they were decent clamps.it was a package deal 13 pr and a tool bag for 99.00 had a wide array of clamps also so I got them and they seem to be doing as good as my "vise grip" brand.there was a few clamps that I see in the stores and cheapest I seen them for was 27.00 each so it was a deal.some times it is a shot in the dark..If it's too . get an office jobLincoln wp225g7 Lincoln 250 idealarcFrankenstein O/A set-up Weld-tech  tig set-upLincoln sp 175 plus profax  arc gouger
Reply:The branded all American made tools are an assurance of quality where trouble free workmanship is need... anyway it impress the customer...I do feel a huge difference in quality and price from China made version.Now branded tools have a new weapon to fight with All Chinese made tools... The license the brand to a third party (Chinese or Asian manufacturer) and inspect QC them... These is a cheaper signature line for hobby user. This ensure the market is not lost to people sorting to an economic package.Then there is the Chinese all made tools (disposable) where u can bring to any worksite and never fear people take it for keep... This is a good option for once a week machanics...I know I have all 3 option bought , it depend what its use for, whom its use for, where its use for and when its use for... my 2 centUnit in my fab shop dept:my good hand and team that trust me...A lone welder make art... a village full of welder make Miracles...
Reply:All I know is EVERY SINGLE TIME I have bought cheap, crappy tools, I have regretted it.And every time I buy really nice tools, they last a long time, and I enjoy using em.So for me, its a no brainer. Its not worth saving a few bucks now, for years of misery.When I was about 20, I spent what I thought was a fortune on a 3 piece, Starrett 12" rule with square head, the protractor head, and the center finding head- it was about $75, and I was making about 5 bucks an hour then.Coulda bought a sorta OK Stanley for ten or fifteen.Well, I still have that Starrett, and that was 32 years ago- and I use it every day. I have bought, and tossed, a half dozen cheap angle squares since then. (in my shop, with three of us, we need dupes of a lot of tools)There is a pleasure to be had from working with nice tools, which makes the work turn out better, me happier, and my swear word ratio smaller.I just dont buy crap anymore, period. If I cant afford the good one, I save up.Somehow, a couple of chinese vice grips made their way into the shop once- They got tossed- they were so frustrating to use, and such time wasters the way they slid off sideways, came loose, and crumpled- man, they cost a lot more money than they saved.Had a Clark, cheezball italian stick welder once- drove me nuts, it wouldnt do anything well. Sold it for 50 bucks, took out a loan from miller, and bought a Syncrowave, and havent looked back.
Reply:Then there is the Chinese all made tools (disposable) where u can bring to any worksite and never fear people take it for keep... This is a good option for once a week machanics...
Reply:I am not debating if its worth while to buy quality tools or not.Neither am I debating the value of Chinese origin.I'm asking how do the members of this forum ascertain if a tool is of a quality standard.What criteria and indicators do you use?A good guess is better than a bad measurement
Reply:Vague is for sure.Miller Thunderbolt 225Millermatic 130 XPLincoln HD 100 Forney C-5bt Arc welderPlasma Cutter Gianteach Cut40ACent Machinery Bandsaw Cent Machinery 16Speed Drill PressChicago Electric 130amp tig/90 ArcHobart 190 Mig spoolgun ready
Reply:I think there will be an industry standard marking... Japanese... JISIf ye want rare killer tools look for Russian if ye can find one... You need a blunder to kill it. Old russian stuff are well known for their toughness... not the present version...P.S. some tools come with russian words and we can only guess...Last edited by Mandau; 03-23-2008 at 02:56 AM.Reason: addUnit in my fab shop dept:my good hand and team that trust me...A lone welder make art... a village full of welder make Miracles...
Reply:Originally Posted by BrettI am not debating if its worth while to buy quality tools or not.Neither am I debating the value of Chinese origin.I'm asking how do the members of this forum ascertain if a tool is of a quality standard.What criteria and indicators do you use?
Reply:Rojodiablo I have to say you pretty much summed up what I was trying to put into words. Its errie how close you came to my thoughts and tool choices.Simple solid construction that you can beat the pi$$ out of day in day out and still rely on. I think alot has to do with how you started out in the industry. I know a lot of guys who just buy on price and have never really known a quallity tool. They are happy just going along, how everlong it takes, running a crappy tool that gives you nothing but trouble. They always seem ammazed when I can get the job done in a fraction of the time. "you get paid by the hour WTF do you care?" Their work seems to follow their tool choices, second rate at best. I just can't work that way, my blood pressure goes up way to high.I started working for some one for whom taking care of your tools was #1. Concrete trowels got cleaned spotless at the end of the day, including the wheelbarrow. No wait till it weighs 150 lb more and beat it with a hammer, scrub it with a wire brush so you didn't see any crete. Don't get me wrong, he would use and abuse tools well beyond their design limits. He's still the only person I've seen bend an Esswing hammer front to back like you would pull nails. Of coarse he jumped his 300 lb 6'7" a$$ on it to do it, and the 30 oz framer only bent a little bit before the concrete steel form gave. Some of the things we've done with tools/machines would absolutely amaze most people, and yet we rarely ever break/destroy quality tools.I learned the value of worm drives from him ripping 2x's and cutting concrete. They will take a ton of abuse and still run. I have never stalled one no matter how hard I tried, the breaker in the pannel goes first, even on the 13 amp Skills. I cut a 1/4" deep grove in a pintle hook with one one day when someone reset my saw and we had to hurry and fix a from the was failing. Cut right thru it and the only thing I noticed at the time was that the blade seemd to be a little dull! Alot of other guys can't figure out why I want to use such a heavy backasswards saw. Their little direct drive saws wouldn't last a day with some of what the WD will do day in day out.Remember with quality tools, if it didn't break, you wern't useing it to its full potential.
Reply:You can just tell.Cheap combo squares have the numbers and lines stamped into them and just look corny.Knock-off vice grips have those cheesy, soft grips on them(I hate those gummy rubber grips they put on everything)Weird cheap looking plating on wrenches and others things is a good sign,Some of the plating on the cheap stuff looks like diluted concrete!I luckily learned from my mentors mistakes and have rarely gotten hosed with a complete piece of chit tool. Ingersoll-Rand, Starrett, Vise Grip and estwing...........Not "Chicago Pnuematic", "task force", "General", and "Buyers Value"Cheap tools piss me off, and I am already kind of an ******* so quality tools are important Yup
Reply:im not sure where your getting your info burn it, but chicago pneumatic is an EXTREMELY old and quality toolyou must be thinking of central pneumatic, harbor freights brand?
Reply:Originally Posted by BurnitYou can just tell.Cheap combo squares have the numbers and lines stamped into them and just look corny.Knock-off vice grips have those cheesy, soft grips on them(I hate those gummy rubber grips they put on everything)Weird cheap looking plating on wrenches and others things is a good sign,Some of the plating on the cheap stuff looks like diluted concrete!I luckily learned from my mentors mistakes and have rarely gotten hosed with a complete piece of chit tool. Ingersoll-Rand, Starrett, Vise Grip and estwing...........Not "Chicago Pnuematic", "task force", "General", and "Buyers Value"Cheap tools piss me off, and I am already kind of an ******* so quality tools are important
Reply:Originally Posted by drivethruboy54im not sure where your getting your info burn it, but chicago pneumatic is an EXTREMELY old and quality toolyou must be thinking of central pneumatic, harbor freights brand?
Reply:Originally Posted by Rojodiablo Chicago electric makes great wheelchocks...For wheel chocks, leave the cord on, it is easier to pull it out from under the truck!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by drivethruboy54im not sure where your getting your info burn it, but chicago pneumatic is an EXTREMELY old and quality toolyou must be thinking of central pneumatic, harbor freights brand?
Reply:Good question denrep. Freedom and Capitalism perhaps?
Reply:They have none and will copy or flat out steal anything they can. Why do you think they paint their welding machines Lincoln red, Miller blue, Hobart gray and ESAB yellow. I have recently seen a chinese welder that was a flat out copy of a miller.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Word of mouth goes a long, long way to convincing me. I am right now burning up certain tools like they were toys.
Reply:Originally Posted by BrettI'm asking how do the members of this forum ascertain if a tool is of a quality standard.What criteria and indicators do you use?
Reply:What also interesting is the type of Chinese tools that get sent to the US.  They send the cheap crap there to compete because it sells, plain and simple.  Can't blame them for their smarts.Now, what I didn't know until I came to the South Pacific is that they also made good stuff.  For one example, I have several pair of Chinese-made "Vise Grips" that are every bit as nice as my Irwin Brand (and pre-Irwin) Vise-Grips that I brought with me or bought in Australia, I mean JUST AS GOOD.  And I've owned a lot of the good ones and cheap ones in the US to know the difference.And they aren't that cheap here, either, because of how the competition works.  I can buy the GOOD Chinese tools for only 70% of the price of the [now imported] American tools, as opposed to cheap Chinese tools in the US for 20-30% of the price of the domestic American tools.Short story, it's not the fact that it's Chinese that makes them crap.  It's that China only sends their crap stuff to the US because they know their good stuff won't sell when the prices are too similar.
Reply:That's a great point Mac. It's always down to the balance between cost and performance. And, ultimately in the end, sellability.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:I have a lot of tools.  My dad used to sell Proto tools, and I have a lot of them.  I have a few Snap-On, Mac, S-K, Allen, Armstrong, Knipex, etc.  I also have a lot of Chinese stuff.  There is a place for it!  For instance, most of the tool kits I carry in my vehicles contain imports.  The main reason is that thieves broke into my car and stole a bunch of expensive tools.  No point in spending big bucks for occassional use items that could get stolen again!  Most of the tools in my boat's toolbox are imports.  I'd hate to drop a $50 ratchet overboard!I'll have to admit that Harbor Freight seems to be selling a lot higher quality tools than they did 10 years ago.  They also seem to have a number of innovative new designs that you don't see in the American brands.America Needs AMERICA'S Oil!!!"Global warming is the greatest scam in history ...There is no run away climate change. The impact of humans on climate is not catastrophic. Our planet is not in peril."--John Coleman, Founder of The Weather Channel
Reply:I'd say I judge a tool by the following:1) Quality2) Cost3) How much will I use this tool?4) Where and how will I be using this tool?Sometimes I buy the cheaper tool, especially when I'm up in college and only have 1 or 2 uses in mind for a tool.  To this end, my cheap tools have all served me well enough for what I want them to do.  If the cheaper tool gets stolen or broken, it's not nearly as big of a deal.The craftsman himself makes a big difference too.  I've seen a lot of professionals who just don't take care of their tools.  Circular saws that never get cleaned, get tossed haphazardly in the back of the truck because the case got broken on the job.  If you know that you're the kind of guy who puts his tools away dirty, you had better buy the best there is and make some kind of effort to change your ways a little.  Shame on anybody who drinks beer before all his tools are clean, in my book, but I won't get up on that soapbox in this thread...And of course there is such a thing as a tool that is just a plain piece of junk - I don't deny this.For example, I know how to use an impact driver.  I bought the Balkamp (NAPA) branded impact driver to get the case seperated on my motorcycle project.  I was working with a $10 toolkit in my dorm room and needed a one time use driver.   I took the NAPA driver to my room and proceeded to hit the driver as I had done many many times in my dad's shop with our BluePoint driver.  No dice.  Struck it harder, and broke the bit.  I took this cheap driver back to the NAPA and got my money back.  I drove 5 miles to the Sears and bought a Craftsman driver that incidentally only cost about $3 more. 10 minutes later the engine was apart on my dorm room floor.So those are my thoughts and criteria.  Sometimes I've had to adjust my thinking on which tool to buy, but normally I've picked some good winners over the years, both in terms of cheap junky tools that I use only occasionally, and tools I use to work with professionally.  Given the choice, I would never own a cheap tool ever, but being a full time college student, I don't always get the luxury of always being able to buy the best there is.
Reply:Forgot to mention, but sometimes SIZE and WEIGHT can be a significant factor in what I buy, or prefer to use.On a framing job I was once involved with, one of the old nailers was replaced with a new Hitachi nailer (or at least I think it was a Hitachi).  It was a good nailer, the replacement was, but it was really heavy and clumsy.  I'm sure it was well built, but it was difficult to hold that over your head all day, climb ladders with it and whatnot.  One of my favorite brad nailers for when I'm doing cabinets and furniture is my own personal Bostitch nailer with a magnesium body.  It's light and fits really nicely in my hand.Craftsman.  They are not the best tools, Snap-On and Mac are great.  But, you can't beat a no questions asked replacement on any hand tool.  And there are Sears around every corner to replace them at.  When I was a kid we found a hammer and a bunch of wrenches when cleaning out my grandpa's old barn.  Completely rusty and destroyed, we wired wheeled down to the name brands.  The Craftsman we took back to sears, the other stuff was just chucked.  Took them back to sears and got brand new hammers and wrenches free.Craftsman is crap for power tools though.  I have a bunch of Dewalt drills, they are o.k. but not what they used to be.  Milwaukee is good, my sawzall is old and still works great.Word of mouth is best for most stuff, come on here and read and figure out what the "Pro"s say.  That is how I zero'd in on my newly purchased Wilton grinder and I love it.
Reply:My combo wrenches are mostly imports just because of price.When you start getting over 2" they start gettin pricey.Anything with moving parts,ie ratchets i buy U.S. made.I have a 3/4 drive SK ratchet that ive had for 22 years and my dad had before me,dont even know how old it is.Its had to have a few rebuild kits and the inside gear is nearly gone but it gets used HARD almost every day.I just bought a long handled 1/2" drive Proto Black Made in US.lasted less than a week,stripped out.No cheater bars or anything.Craftsman ratchets aint what they used to be,with the plastic selector lever.Do NOT set them on top of a salamander heater to thaw out ha ha.My wrenches from 3/8 to 1 1/4" are all US made,Craftsman,SK,Armstrong.From 1 1/4" to 2 1/2" they are imports HF,Cummins because of price.Then from 2 1/2 to 3 1/8" they are all Wrights.Ive never broke a big wrench US or China made.One thing i will not buy cheap is big impact sockets 3/4 and 1" drive. we run some pretty nasty impacts and hydro torques.Ive seen some China impact sockets produce some pretty good shrapnel.
Reply:Quality tools VS Budget... can u really have everything branded?... even distribute out quality stuff to your worker using in the field job? just curious...Quality tools is a good investment and stay with you personally...Unit in my fab shop dept:my good hand and team that trust me...A lone welder make art... a village full of welder make Miracles...