Pipe Welders should NOT weld Flat!

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2 of these exhaust collector boxes were built for Testing these 3 megawatt engine driven gensets.One by a Veteran Welder and One by a 2 year Pipe Welder.Both are Certified Pipe Welders with the younger guy also Certified Mig 3/4" Steel.When the first one came apart, one guy said the other guy did it. When the second box came apart, the other guy claimed the other guy did it.Anyways, I inspected the welds and 75% showed penetration on one sheet for a bit, then penetration on the opposite sheet. This continued back and forth all along the welds.I wish I had photo'ed the welds!The young guys' excuse was that there was no gap to get penetration through the materials (11 gauge steel). I told him that was no excuse as he fitted and tacked it all together. He rebuilt both boxes and welded angle irons over most of the seams. He also told me he turned up the heat and burned it in good! I replied that if he had done that in the first place the welds would have held alone.Then I told him that is the reason Pipe Welders should stick to Pipe! Attached Images
Reply:Personally I think pipe welders are the best of the best. But when I was starting out, and getting ready for my very first welding test, 3G, and 4G. I tracked down the best pipe welder on site, and asked him to show me how to do it. He wanted no part of it, said he wasn't all that good with plate. Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Tough call for me on that one. I know exactly what your getting at, and for the most part it makes sense, but it does get frustrating to the other well rounded welders that get new veteran help and the guy shows up and says I only did this or I only did that for the last 20 yrs. For me it gets old after a while, esp. when you hear through the grape vine that some mad sick genious kick azz welder just got hired and smoked his interview and will be here monday, and when he shows up you find out he's limited to his capabilities but great in only one thing that we don't do on a everyday basis. Tough call, but could see the pros and cons to each side. Did those boxes have bafflers in them or are they just boxes? If no bafflers I could see how they would just flap and bounce around and eventually work themselves apart. Anyway good question there I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikethe guy shows up and says I only did this or I only did that for the last 20 yrs.
Reply:Case of when is fit-up good enough.   Corner to corner with a slight gap and a guy has a chance.  Lap the ends, you may make it fast and pretty but the lo-hi will just be floating on the surface.
Reply:I used to think I was a Good pipe welder, surely not the best, but good.I had to weld 2, just 2 6" slip flanges on a 350 ton cooling tower. Stubs were 6" sch 80 beveled from factory, galvanized coating. I opted for slip flanges as weld necks would force piping an additional 6-8" further out.Well, I had to fix two leaks.... Under pressure for TWO WEEKS, then the glycol started weeping... I know exactly how I would do these in the future, and not allow myself to be rushed by supervisors...Never had a leak, until those two dag-gone flanges.... I also hate galvazined....Lincoln Power MIG 210 MP ( boat anchor )Lincoln Weld-Pac 100 HDHobart IronMan 230Cutmaster 42Jackson NexGenSumner Ultra ClampsDWM120
Reply:The whole problem is that they ran the mig too low in power. Like I said fusion was excellent on one piece or the other but not both! The opposite piece would actually have no penetration! I have lots of these boxes in different inlet diameters not welded by these 2 guys that have more hours on them that didn't shake apart. So I do not believe that is what caused it. The other box did open on the bottom. Its top actually came loose then a side.The whole thing is they can do x-ray quality 6G welds but both stand there and swear up and down they didn't do that one! Remember one of each made one!
Reply:So whats your point? I'm sorry I wasted time thinking about it then.I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Pipe welders can weld pipe.Have you ever seen one work in a fab shop? Just because pipe welders make more money doesn't make them the best at every aspect of the trade.
Reply:A good/professional welder would look at the welds when he started and adjust according to what he sees. It would be the same for mig stick pipe or plate. This failure sounds like case of should be good enoughMillermatic 252millermatic 175miller 300 Thunderboltlincoln ranger 250smith torcheslots of bfh'sIf it dont fit get a bigger hammer
Reply:A good interview and certifications are great... but were these gentlemen ever given a weld test that mimicked the welds they would be doing on the job?I feel your pain. I see this same pattern in my current field of work which is Information Technology. I'm a field technician, and I've seen countless times where technical business analysts and software engineers who are supposed to know more then me about how things work, and get paid more then me, can't solve the most simple problem you present them.While I was doing welding for a living, I saw guys with loads more expereince then me make stupid mistakes... I think it all comes down to complacency and a mind set where they are so full of themselves they overlook the simple stuff.I think "machoism" applies too. These guys being pipe welders may not have known what the proper machine settings or manipuplation were... and were too proud to admit it and ask questions. Smart people admit when they don't know something, and then proceed ask questions to further their knowledge.The Peter Principle applies... people tend to rise to the level of their incompence.Lincoln Idealarc 250Lincoln Weldanpower CC/CV engine driveLincoln LN-25 wire feederMiller Syncrowave 180 SDVarious oxy-fuel setups featuring Victor, Harris, and Prest-o-lite products
Reply:this is clearly a design flaw and pipe welders are the superheroes of welding !!!! +what weldermike said.--------------------------------------------------------------www.becmotors.nlyup, I quit welding.. joined welder anonymous
Reply:this is why pipe welders always say: If it ain't round, throw it down!Shoulda got you a structural welder for that junk iron.
Reply:Originally Posted by Tower dragPipe welders can weld pipe.Have you ever seen one work in a fab shop? Just because pipe welders make more money doesn't make them the best at every aspect of the trade.
Reply:My pipe certification allows me to weld anything in the shipyard I work at..
Reply:If a "pipe" welder is willing to take less money and weld with a squirt gun on flat plate, he is not a good pipe welder, good pipe guys work on pipe and can keep a job through the reputation they build for themselves based on their work quality and work ethic (mostly). Just because he was junk doesn't mean all pipe guys are.
Reply:If he had used a plasma welder he'd have penetrated all the way through and both sides simultaneously.......Mig is for those that don't like changing rods every so often, no matter how long you've been at it, and think just laying metal onto metal is a good weld......what you can't see can't be criticised...LOL.....until it falls apart.I'm not saying welders are crap artists, but when I started out in my trade if you failed to meet the basic requirements you became a welder.....no offence meant, that was the rule, "they" made it.....but if you showed some promise you got elevated to become a boilermaker, which is a far more technical work skill than just joining steel plate after steel plate all your life with a variety of welding rods.In the end, no matter how well you do your job, if the design is wrong in the first place you might just as well stay in bed for all it's worth, 'cos you'll get blamed for the failure, being the lowest rung on the workplace ladder.In cases where you have similar work pieces worked on by different people, I ALWAYS MARKED MY WORK IN A SECRET PLACE, having been unfairly accused of bad workmanship where I proved my point to the contrary.I think in the case of a welding job you have to decide what method you would use to produce the job, based on your work skill and experience, as opposed to being told to do it another way.......you carry the blame in the end, and if "they" don't have confidence in your ability, (supervisors don't necessarily have to be skilled people, only people handlers) you might just as well go make the coffee......you'll be the lowest wage earner anyway.Ian.
Reply:The problem is they have welding machines that be programmed for for specifics that allow them to weld pipe and pass X-Ray. Once the programs are set, then saved, they can recall them everytime they have that type of pipe. So these guys get set in their ways as how to do something, then get asked to do a Fab job like this just throws them off base as it is a style of welding they arre not accustomed to.Its been interesting to say comments from you all!thank You!
Reply:My .02This thread is also proof of what many say about mig.Specifically, Mig welding can throw down a pretty weld that did not penetrate.This is just a reminder that even welders with experience can get bitten by thinking mig is a mindless process that anyone can do.  These two welders just showed what that thinking will get you.Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:This is the dumbest arguement I have ever read... I worked in a fab shop for 5 1/2 years... I welded x-ray pipe for conoco philips and the main braces for a rotary table on a rig in the same shop...  Rebuilt drilling drilling rigs and other critical and non critical structures... Welded high pressure gas lines and steam lines... Pipe welders can't weld structural... Yeah ok...