GTAW Tee Joint Awe

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My welding instructor swears it is just in my head, but I beg to differ...Every time I fill in the first side of a tee joint, it looks pretty flawless.Every time I turn it over to do the other side, it runs funny and ugly.The wire balls up and drops prematurely and the puddle is hard to maintain (or even establish). So I end up with tee joints with one decent side and one blown out side.This happens even when I let the piece cool down for hours.It is carbon steel. Using ER70S2 rod I believe.  Using a Miller Dialarc 250 HF. Happens in all positions....Anyone else experience this? Advice? Is it really just all in my head?Last edited by millerj5944; 06-20-2013 at 02:53 PM.
Reply:Same tee joint. Every single one I do is similar to this Attached Images
Reply:You are changing something. In pict 1 all your ripples point to the left. In pict 2 all your ripples point to the right for some reason. In theory, if you simply turned the piece around, I'd expect the ripples to be facing the same direction. The fact they aren't tells me that you are welding differently  on the 2nd one. Just what you are doing it's tough to say right now without more info..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Without watching you do it, my best guess is you are changing your hand postions, torch angle and/or filler rod angle when you go to the other side.Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:The pic says vertical up - did you leave it in place or flip it over?Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Looks to me that your travel speed may be a little slow or your heat could be a touch high and your getting corrosion and mill scale resurfacing on the backside of your first pass causing the contamination.I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:do you clean the mill scale after you finish first weld?first weld is not that great either ...freehand or walk? I see some "walk" scratches on the bad part of second weld but none on firsttake a moment and visualize the motion, and then do it without starting an arc.. see if what you expected is how you move--------------------------------------------------------------www.becmotors.nlyup, I quit welding.. joined welder anonymous
Reply:I didn't change amps, or direction or anything really.... It was a 3f tee so I had it tacked up upright so sideways the ripples look different
Reply:Like said above, could be contamination.If not, my .02 is that when you switch to the other side you don't have the same positioning.  You are comfortable on one side and not the other.Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:I'm walking but I'm not too great. This piece was probably only about the 3rd time I have done vertical up with GTAW in my life. Tonight I'm going to try grinding the mill off really well beforehand. I do see some flakes falling off while welding the 2nd side sometimes.Someone told me the only way to avoid the flaking was to pump argon on the other side while welding the 1st.
Reply:Did you grind the weld area of the base plate and the edge of the vertical before you welded?  Both pieces need to be shiney in the weld area before tacking together.  I would assume your teacher told you that already - just a reminder. Dave JDave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Haha no he didn't. I guess he assumes it is common sense.He is the kind of guy to just send you out in the wild to practice."You're not gonna learn ta weld sittin in here, lets go to the shop!"During the SMAW lessons, we were told that the mill wasn't a big deal and would burn off. I believed it because I managed to get all my bend tests to pass. I assume this is definitely not the case with GTAW
Reply:Yes I do see mill scale. As others have stated clean and shiny.www.tjsperformance.comDynasty 300 DXHTP 240HTP Microcut 380Hyperthem 85JD2 Hyd Bender and HF Hyd Ring Roller all in one =(Frankenbender)Bpt. Mill/DRO4' x 8' CNC Plasma TableInstagram: tjsperformanceYT: TJS Welding and Fabrication
Reply:This may have solved my dilemma. Tonight I shall grind! Thanks guys
Reply:it's not common sense ! he should have told you that.mill scale is an oxide layer formed at high temps so when you weld the first side you will create mill scale on the other side (on that thickness ) , so remember it's not enough to grind beforehand, you have to clean after the first weld too... and when you have a multiple pass welds it's also a good idea to clean between passes.--------------------------------------------------------------www.becmotors.nlyup, I quit welding.. joined welder anonymous
Reply:Is the flaking I see around my weld puddle on the opposite side mill scale? Or is that just from all the heat on such thin steel?Last edited by millerj5944; 06-20-2013 at 03:41 PM.
Reply:You may grind it down to shiney metal but after grinding CLEAN it with some acetone and a CLEAN rag..You'll see....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by Donoharmmill scale is an oxide layer formed at high temps so when you weld the first side you will create mill scale on the other side (on that thickness ) , so remember it's not enough to grind beforehand, you have to clean after the first weld too... and when you have a multiple pass welds it's also a good idea to clean between passes.
Reply:Originally Posted by millerj5944I didn't change amps, or direction or anything really.... It was a 3f tee so I had it tacked up upright so sideways the ripples look different
Reply:How come I never have  these problems??...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabIMO, any welding instructor with enough time under the hood with TIG should've been able to identify the problem and not just tell you that your inexperience is the issue.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterHow come I never have  these problems??...zap!
Reply:What are your amps set at? Allot of new guys use low amps, moving too slow and putting too much heat into the steel and the back will scale up really bad. Also I see what looks like water on the steel in pic 2. Usually the water in the buckets at schools is really dirty, don't dunk the steel unless you are going to grind it clean again before welding..Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Hello millerj5944, when you are welding with the GTAW process there is an old saying that goes something like this: "Cleanliness is next to Godliness". Simply put and as many have already stated, the the oxides or mill scale prior to or after the welding of the first side has been done are the culprits for the results you see on the weld of the second side of your fillets.First, you have to pay careful attention to the preparation of the two pieces that you are joining, then you need to carefully tack or clamp your parts so as to not cause contamination of the tacks you make prior to starting the welding(don't simply apply the tack and pull the torch off, instead allow the post-flow gases to protect the tack and keep it shiney).Also, keep the end of the filler rod, if you are using any, in the post-flow gas envelope as it is timing out. Before you weld the first side it's not a bad idea, if you can apply a backing bar of some sort. This will aid with the welding of the first side in many cases and also aid in keeping the other side from becoming oxidized nearly so badly. Do not use accelerated cooling on this first weld(water dunk, blow-down, etc.), this can cause added oxidation and contamination issues that will cause you grief when you go to weld the second side. Additionally, if you use a water dunk, you can allow water to become drawn into the space where your vertical plate is sitting against the base plate and when you try to weld over that on the second side fillet you will see a bunch of nasty challenges erupt. In any event, as has already been stated, carefully inspect and grind/clean as required on the second side before attempting to weld it. There will be a world of difference in the results if you do these things. Good luck and best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Thanks for all of the great advice! I knew I was going to have to take this issue to the forums for an answer when my instructor fed me some "in your head" BS.I grinded the mill scale off the coupons and made good use of a grinder with a wire wheel to clean both sides before and after welding. The results were so much better! I'm going to go back and redo my 1f, 2f, 3f, and 4f now for a better grade. I'm excited now. After a few open root butt joints I will be done with carbon steel and move on to stainless and aluminum.Thanks guysGlad it all worked out..99% of all welding "Problems" start with improper prep..Even though you may only be welding one side on things the other side has alot to do with your final result.Proper cleaning of all weld areas top...bottom...inside...outside...is a must.Oils and crap wick to heat and will bleed thru the other side and make a mess..Tubing is famous for this..Most just clean the outside and have at it only to find 1/2 way around there is all sorts of contamination happening and can't figure out why...CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN!You should be able to weld in a suit and tie if proper prep is taken....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.