Aluminum tig woes

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Hey everyone.  I will try to be as descriptive here as possible but forgive me if I leave some info out.  Haven't tig welded in 13 years and am just getting back into it.  Have a diversion 180 and using 100% argon.  Have used the diversion on ss and took first crack at al last night.  I was just wanting to run some beads on .025 and a piece of 1/8" to get some hood time in and it did not go well at all.  I could not form a puddle at all.  I used a ss wire brush and acetone to clean prior to beginning.  Using pure tungsten and argon set between 15-20.  Had amps set low at first (60) all the way up to 120.  Ground tungsten on a new wheel on a 4.5" angle grinder.  Played around with flooring the pedal and backing way off and still couldn't get a pedal to form.  Arc did seem to be wandering.  Ground tungsten not to a point but did not ball it.  Any thoughts on what I'm doing wrong?  I just want to run a bunch of beads to get some seat time in.  One more thing.  I switched from pure tungsten to the red band (sorry, can't remember which one that is) and same results.  I stayed in one spot so long trying to form a puddle that I guess I tripped the duty cycle?  Tungsten was cherry red and a sulfur looking powdery soot (yellowish) had formed on the cup.  I had delusions of jumping right back on the tig horse after 13 years away and man was I wrong!!
Reply:I have looked into taking a refresher course at a local cc but haven't found anything.  I live in st.louis, mo so if anyone knows of anywhere offering training, that would be great.
Reply:A piece of 1/8" Aluminum will take 120 amps on AC to have any chance of anything happening.......What size Tungsten?Don't use Pure on Aluminum....... My best Success has been with 3/32" Ceriated or Zirconiated...... I also like 2% Lanthanated.........Your 60 amp setting will just make 1/8" Aluminum laugh........Precision TIG 185 and MP 210Bobcat 225NTCutmaster 42O/A tanks.... 2 Argon tanks...... 2 C25 TanksFacebook...... F2 Metal WorksETSY....... https://www.etsy.com/shop/F2MetalWorksF2MetalWorks.com....... http://www.f2metalworks.com/
Reply:Did youb have a good ground?Could be your gas was choked off. Got any pics?Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Using a 3/32 tungsten.  I messed around with some ss and mild steel afte so the ground seemed to be fine.  I thought about the gas so I lightly touched the pedal to engage the gas and it seemed fine.    Sorry, no pics.  I might be able to snap one later.
Reply:On my syncrowave 250 for 11ga aluminum (about 1/8 thick) I would run about 180 amps, 3/32" Ceriated (yellow band) ground to a point. Floor the pedal, then back off and start feathering. I am not familer with a diversion 180, but one trick I have used for smaller machines on thicker aluminum. Get a mapp torch and give it a good preheat before you start.If you cant fix it with a hammer, it must be an electrical problem."Boy, everyone starts with a full bag of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before the bag of luck is empty."-Grandad circa 1990ish
Reply:From your discription , my guess is that your welding with DC- current . Switch to AC.
Reply:The diversion 180 has a single switch to go from ac to dc.  It is very simplified.  I double checked to make sure I was on the aluminum setting.
Reply:The tungsten and residue on the cup is concerning for a gas delivery problem.Does the AC arc sound different than the DC arc?is it humming along?I'm with Fexal, on 1/8 aluminum, you need to use around 150-180 amps to start, or preheat as Larp says.Larp, is that a kitty in your avatar?TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Yeah, it definitely is on ac based on the sound.  I had gas flow for sure and had the regulator set between 15-20 psig.  Maybe not enough flow?  I can understand not forming a puddle on the 1/8" piece at 120 amps but I had the amps up on the thin piece also and still couldn't form a puddle.  Maybe I didn't properly clean?  I wire brushed first then wiped with acetone.   It was like the arc was spreading out but never formed an actual puddle.  Then, the machine kicked off and smoke was coming out of the cup, the tungsten was cherry red and yellowish soot was on the inside of the cup.
Reply:Originally Posted by FexalA piece of 1/8" Aluminum will take 120 amps on AC to have any chance of anything happening.......What size Tungsten?Don't use Pure on Aluminum....... My best Success has been with 3/32" Ceriated or Zirconiated...... I also like 2% Lanthanated.........Your 60 amp setting will just make 1/8" Aluminum laugh........
Reply:Okay, I will try and up the amps.  I recall from my school days al getting to hot and the bottom dropping out so I'm scared to run too much heat.
Reply:Originally Posted by DomantoriOkay, I will try and up the amps.  I recall from my school days al getting to hot and the bottom dropping out so I'm scared to run too much heat.
Reply:Dom:the electrode should be nice and silvery after a weld.  If it isnt- (blue at the tip or worse- all sooty or sulfer colored) then you are probably getting poor or no shielding. Try cleaning the work, grind the electrode to clean it, check gas flow (13-15) 3/32 electrode OK,  set current to AC at about 180 amps.   Be sure you are bleeding the air out of the argon line.  once all that is done-   put the torch down at 90 degrees and about 1/16 or a little more arc gap.   Hit the pedal for about 1-2 secconds.  now check the electrode and the work and see if there are any strange colors or soot.   If electrode is blue- not good gas coverage or not enough post flow (try 8 sec.)  If the work is dirty or has a soot ring try a different size cup.   soot ring can be too much OR too little gas or a slightly inappropriate nozle for the geometry.  If the arc area is not clean while the arc is heating the work- you wont get a puddle like you are expecting.  Once the hot area gets a little contaminated its like a pie crust on top of the pie.Sounds like you are at the last levle of tweaking before you start getting a nice well behaved puddle.Keep working with it - it will happen !also- if you run too little post flow and the last few secconds after the gas quits- the tip can oxidise blue.  You may not notice. then on the next weld- the blue contamination makes the puddle (or lack there of)  dirty or not really form at all.   Often in that situation you wait for a shiney puddle and you wait and then the work falls through.    Floor the pedal- if you dont see a small shiney spot in 1-2 sec-   something is dirtyTimLast edited by jethro; 06-24-2013 at 01:52 AM.
Reply:Check out my thread which in the end pointed me to a bad gas problem after having not one but 2 different bottles of gas that were bad.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=279581Esab  Mig 200i Caddy Esab Tig 2200i ac/dc water cooled Miller Diversion 180Lincoln HD 110v weldpack
Reply:The yellowish soot is from either Dipping the tungsten and not dressing it, or something coated on your scrap?  As mentioned pics would help....Sounds like what Terry said your not using enough Amps at start up.......Dont be afraid to run some amps on aluminum........  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Setting up now to give it another shot.  I only have pure tungsten and 2% thoriated.  Which is my better choice?  Going to set amps at 160 and floor the pedal right away and see what happens.  Gas is set at around 17 psi.  Sorry about no pics.  I post from my phone and have no idea how to upload pics.  Thanks everyone for helping me through this.  Going to prep and clean metal again since it has been sitting in my garage for two days.
Reply:Hmmmm.....just found out that my diversion 180 only goes up to 125 amps.  I am only running on a 115v outlet in the garage.
Reply:Well, no luck.  Floored the pedal and the machine kicked out within seconds.   Smoke was coming out of my cup and my tungsten was a blueish color.
Reply:Sorry for the play by play but I want to be as descriptive as possible.  Reground tungsten.   Initiated arc and it seems like my cleaning is for s**t.  I feel like I'm not breaking through the protective layer.  It's like there is a protective piece of cellophane on it.  Yes, I checked.  .  Imagine lake  ice cracking and splintering out.  I sat in the same spot trying to get an actual puddle and the heat spread out (normal for al I'm guessing).  Tried to dip some rod but it just melted immediately.  Rod is only 1/16".   I am using a 7" ss wire brush (not very sturdy) to clean.  Should I try a different prep method?
Reply:You don't have enough amps, as others have said, plain and simple.  You also either don't have post flow set high enough or have a argon leak or a bad argon tank because you should not be seeing that tungsten turn blueish no matter what (unless this was caused by the machine shutdown also cutting off the post flow)  You'll get no where fast unless you correct all of these issues, starting with the amperage problem.  Get on 220.BTW,  shielding gas flow rates are CFH not psi.  Last edited by Oscar; 06-24-2013 at 02:21 PM. 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:I had the diversion 180.120-125 amps was enough for 1/8" aluminum, just took a few extra seconds to get the puddle going, but it welded great. Don't use pure tungsten as already stated. Anything else will work fine.Tungsten won't ball up on an inverter unless you use using something really thin like .040 and at 80 amps.Check your gas flow when you are on the pedal. Most people tend to set the flow at 15 and when it's actually flowing it will drop.I know it sounds silly, but try to NOT clean the aluminum. Maybe your brush is adding to the issue. Make sure your stickout isn't too great. 1/4" or less. And that you have 100% argon.Pics as well too!Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by OscarYou don't have enough amps, as others have said, plain and simple.  You also either don't have post flow set high enough or have a argon leak or a bad argon tank because you should not be seeing that tungsten turn blueish no matter what (unless this was caused by the machine shutdown also cutting off the post flow)  You'll get no where fast unless you correct all of these issues, starting with the amperage problem.  Get on 220.BTW,  shielding gas flow rates are CFH not psi.
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleI had the diversion 180.120-125 amps was enough for 1/8" aluminum, just took a few extra seconds to get the puddle going, but it welded great. Don't use pure tungsten as already stated. Anything else will work fine.Tungsten won't ball up on an inverter unless you use using something really thin like .040 and at 80 amps.Check your gas flow when you are on the pedal. Most people tend to set the flow at 15 and when it's actually flowing it will drop.I know it sounds silly, but try to NOT clean the aluminum. Maybe your brush is adding to the issue. Make sure your stickout isn't too great. 1/4" or less. And that you have 100% argon.Pics as well too!
Reply:Two points.  First is change the material.  If its ANODIZED it will behave just like what you're experiencing.  It will act like it has a cellophane skin on it.  It can be very shiny and still be anodized, it happened to me with a piece of vibrant tubing.  If you don't have different material, hit the aluminum with easy off oven cleaner for a few minutes, then clean and rebrush.See if you can borrow a Generator that has a 220 output to temporarily run your unit off of 220.  At least around my parts, after hurricane Sandy, everyone has one.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 MagnumOriginally Posted by DomantoriHey everyone.  Have a diversion 180 and using 100% argon.  ......  Using pure tungsten
Reply:I would try turning the gas up. On the Diversion 180 the "flowmeter" is actually a pressure guage and relies on a "known backpressure" to show "flow". If you have a obstruction in any part after the tank you will not get the "flow" indicated on the pressure guage. I would try 30 maybe up to 40 just to see what would happen.
Reply:WTF 30 or 40 is WAY too high.15-20 is perfectly fine. As I said, hit the pedal and adjust the gas while it's flowing.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by b432291I would try turning the gas up. On the Diversion 180 the "flowmeter" is actually a pressure guage and relies on a "known backpressure" to show "flow". If you have a obstruction in any part after the tank you will not get the "flow" indicated on the pressure guage. I would try 30 maybe up to 40 just to see what would happen.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveThat is not correct.  Like Gamble said: 15 - 20 cfh is the norm for tig
Reply:I've done 1/8" on 125amps on that machine. Works just fine depending on the joint. Outside corner joints were the easiest, anything else took a few seconds to heat up.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Thanks everyone for the input.  I bought the al at lowes if this makes a bit of difference.  I can say for sure that I am getting gas, just can't say exactly how much.   The nice thing about the diversion is the MVP plug which allows you to go from 115 to 220 with just unscrewing the plug and putting the 220 plug on.  My father in law has 220 at his shop so I may ending up taking it down there and see what happens.  Diversion only weighs 50 lbs which is another nice feature.  Working 80 hour weeks right now so it may be awhile before I get back to it but I will keep this thread updated until the problem is solved.  Or, stomp the s**t out if the diversion and stick with mig.
Reply:I'm glad that gamble has done 1/8" on this exact machine.  At least I know it can be done.  Based on what I'm seeing, I really feel like I'm not breaking through whatever protective layer al has.  I'm not even able to form a puddle on the .025 thin piece.  It's been 13 years since I did tig on al so I'm going to ask a dumb question.  There should be a noticeable puddle, correct?  I have bees messing around with ss and mild steel and have had no problems short of poor technique.  Noticeable puddles have been formed on both.
Reply:Originally Posted by DomantoriI'm glad that gamble has done 1/8" on this exact machine.  At least I know it can be done.  Based on what I'm seeing, I really feel like I'm not breaking through whatever protective layer al has.  I'm not even able to form a puddle on the .025 thin piece.  It's been 13 years since I did tig on al so I'm going to ask a dumb question.  There should be a noticeable puddle, correct?  I have bees messing around with ss and mild steel and have had no problems short of poor technique.  Noticeable puddles have been formed on both.
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleIf you don't get a puddle on .025 something is wrong. First thing to check is make sure you are on AC for aluminum. Take pics of your work, that will help out a ton.
Reply:I actually have 16 hours off between shifts tomorrow so I will try again.  I have a brand new piece of 1/8" that I will try.  What is the best cleaning/prepping method so I start off on the right foot?  Also, I was using the same grinding wheel to sharpen both the pure and thoriated tungstens.  Does this matter?  If no success tomorrow, you will all hear loud cursing and screaming no matter where you live.
Reply:Just a stainless steel wire brush. Or no cleaning works well on some stuff. Same wheel for different tungsten is fine.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleJust a stainless steel wire brush. Or no cleaning works well on some stuff. Same wheel for different tungsten is fine.
Reply:The oxide layer is very thin.  For what you're doing, a normal "toothbrush" type SS brush will work just fine to remove the oxide layer.  That's probably not your problem... 125 amps should be more than enough to raise a puddle on 1/8" material, much less on .025, whether or not you brush first...If you can raise a puddle on steel, but not on aluminum, it's probably just that you don't have enough current to do so.  Could be due to your machine, could be due to the material, or both.Last edited by Mr. Moose; 06-25-2013 at 09:15 PM.
Reply:I just read through hundhaus's thread from a few weeks ago and his pics look exactly like what I'm dealing with.  And, he was using the same machine.  His problem turned out to be not one but two bottles of bad gas.  Hmmmm.  Tomorrow, I am going to light up and stay in the same spot not using any filler and make a small circle and see what happens.Is there a way to post pics from my phone (iPhone 4s).?
Reply:When you brush the surface it will be noticeable when you brake through the oxidized layer, the al will look shiner and the brush will feel stickier as you scrub into the softer aluminum.Lincoln precision TIG 275Millermatic 140 MIG
Reply:Originally Posted by yoshimitsuspeedWhen you brush the surface it will be noticeable when you brake through the oxidized layer, the al will look shiner and the brush will feel stickier as you scrub into the softer aluminum.
Reply:Here is a pic.  Hopefully this works. Attached Images
Reply:One more pic Attached Images
Reply:And one last pic Attached Images
Reply:This was haushounds with the two bottles of bad gas for reference. Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by papaharley03That's true, but the previous poster was suggesting increasing the readout to 30 or 40 as a TEST to see if a restriction is INDICATING a higher than actual flow rate.I'm not saying that it will work, but it was a diagnostic suggestion the way I read it. Papa
Reply:Another of hounds for reference. Attached Images
Reply:One thing that I posted before to keep in mind in regards to the gas.  I was able to weld on ss and mild steel with no problems.
Reply:Either it's anodized or you aren't getting proper gas coverage. Are you positive you have 100% argon? Try scrubbing a spot real good till you get down to soft shiny fresh aluminum. If it's anodized that will be a pain to do by hand. If you have a grinder with a wire wheel hit it with that to get through the hard surface layer. After that wipe it with a paper towel or clean rag and isopropyl alcohol. After that just try to get a good puddle without filler.Lincoln precision TIG 275Millermatic 140 MIG