If Ya Can't Find Them Then Modify The Ones You Have...

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It has been 8 months now of searching junkyards..Craigslist..Evilbay..EVERYWHERE for 170 MM bolt pattern rims for my truck with ZERO luck..Sure there are a couple on evilbay but shipping from the west coast or Florida just 'aint happening...The right front rim I have now is trash and no matter how many times you balance the tire it still "hops" at 42 M.P.H. because it is bent and that's that.When I bought the tires a few months back I thought the rims they were on would fit my truck..Nope 6.5" bolt pattern...Hmmmmmm what to do..DUH! I am a welder/machinist after all...Seems easy enough..Fill in the orig holes and make new ones!Lathe work done!I indicated this in within a .001 of it's life!Tomorrow it's 8 holes on the Bridgeport and I figured out the bolt pattern without needing a indexing table to set up..So until then you guys can think what ya want but this is going to work..After all it's just metal.And FWIW it's IMPOSSIBLE to keep the filler in the gas pocket when doing the inside of the rim..(But don't worry..It still works.)...zap!Last edited by zapster; 09-26-2013 at 05:24 PM.I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Looking good so far, you'll make it work! Inside of the rim is where a flex head torch would come in handy. If you think it's gonna fight you though have you thought about tigging the outside and stick weld the inside?I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeLooking good so far, you'll make it work! Inside of the rim is where a flex head torch would come in handy. If you think it's gonna fight you though have you thought about tigging the outside and stick weld the inside?
Reply:Hey I was just being polite, I'm not sure of your capabilities.  I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:On average I'd say this was a bad idea, but knowing your skills at both welding and machining, and the fact that this is a steel rim, I'll bow to your expertise. I assume you'll be trying to hit areas that were welded for the new holes if at all possible. The change in color at the welded holes makes me a bit nervous. ( I realize what I'm seeing is most likely the different alloy of the filler vs the original steel) Part of me wonders if turning out the whole center and welding in a virgin piece to drill and center bore wouldn't have been a better choice.This is definitely NOT a project for some newbe to run out and buy a HF mig to do..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWOn average I'd say this was a bad idea, but knowing your skills at both welding and machining, and the fact that this is a steel rim, I'll bow to your expertise. I assume you'll be trying to hit areas that were welded for the new holes if at all possible. The change in color at the welded holes makes me a bit nervous. ( I realize what I'm seeing is most likely the different alloy of the filler vs the original steel) Part of me wonders if turning out the whole center and welding in a virgin piece to drill and center bore wouldn't have been a better choice.This is definitely NOT a project for some newbe to run out and buy a HF mig to do.
Reply:Oh boy, the end of the world is coming!
Reply:LOL, I was in the basement on my phone and never even noticed that you filled the holes. I thought you cut the whole hub out and made another with blank holes. Duh  Well one of my close friends always tells me, you know what your problem is Mike, You have a 1 second mouth and a 8 second brain! I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTOh boy, the end of the world is coming!
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterStick?NO fuchi'n way!...zap!
Reply:First!  I in no way doubt Zap's ability in anything he does and probably would do the same thing if I had the same machinery available to be.  It will work and I have done similar on farm equipment that takes a worse beating than Zap will ever expose his truck to.BUT!  DOT strictly prohibits welding on wheels unless factory done in the assembly process.OK, had to say that.  Now iffin it were me I would just sandblast the thing all nice and clean and give it a fresh coat of paint and if any body ask it's a new wheel.RogerOld, Tired, and GRUMPYSalesman will call, Batteries not included, Assembly is required, and FREE ADVICE IS WORTH EXACTLY WHAT YOU PAY FOR IT!Dial Arc 250HFThunderbolt 225 AC/DCAssorted A/O torches
Reply:Originally Posted by Rog02First!  I in no way doubt Zap's ability in anything he does and probably would do the same thing if I had the same machinery available to be.  It will work and I have done similar on farm equipment that takes a worse beating than Zap will ever expose his truck to.BUT!  DOT strictly prohibits welding on wheels unless factory done in the assembly process.OK, had to say that.  Now iffin it were me I would just sandblast the thing all nice and clean and give it a fresh coat of paint and if any body ask it's a new wheel.
Reply:"these are not the bad repairs you're looking for...""move along"You get all the fun jobs.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Finally doing what I said to do in your first thread about the wheels Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterAnd why might that be........?...zap!
Reply:I like the way you think. I have no issue. But why did you wait 8 months?
Reply:Originally Posted by Rog02First!  I in no way doubt Zap's ability in anything he does and probably would do the same thing if I had the same machinery available to be.  It will work and I have done similar on farm equipment that takes a worse beating than Zap will ever expose his truck to.BUT!  DOT strictly prohibits welding on wheels unless factory done in the assembly process.OK, had to say that.  Now iffin it were me I would just sandblast the thing all nice and clean and give it a fresh coat of paint and if any body ask it's a new wheel.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterYou have to go where the orig holes are or else the 4 BIG holes on the outside will not line up at all if you put this in the rear when changing out front tires.Try getting air into the tire after you do that!
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepIt would only index the wheel 1/16 of a turn, about 20 degrees. No biggie for inflation access.But whatever, either way.But back to the beginning...170mm = 6.69"6.5" = 6.5" (of course)6.69" - 6.5" = .190.190" / 2 = .095"  per hole. (because the difference is split between  each "side") And aren't  the Imperial holes larger to begin with?With hub-centering, and the nuts acting only as clamps, this wasn't workable as a  drill/ream/mill job?
Reply:Why not just back the hole with a chunk of copper and filler up with the MIG instead of screwing around inside ?
Reply:I've had wheels start to crack right where you've welded.  Around the bolt holes.  It seems to be an area of concentrated stress.  I think it's lateral/side movement that does it.  But my failures were on stud piloted wheels, not hub piloted wheels.  DunnoI'd have no problem at all running yours as duals, but I'd shy away from running them on the steering axle.I believe, between the 2 big trucks, I've scrapped maybe 4 wheels due to rust at the welds where the metal is starting to flake in layers.  In the old days, when I was young, I'd probably still run them.  But now that I've gotten up in years, I'd rather replace them.  I'm not worried about my safety as they're duals, but I'd hate for the rim to come off and hit a car.  Don't want to kill anybody, and in my opinion lawyers make too much as it isI'd be real quirky about matching the filler with the parent metal.  Ductility being my uppermost concern.  Wheels tend to be alloy.While it's true that hub piloted wheels are wholly held in place by the clamping pressure of the lug nuts, and the lug nuts don't support the load like a standard passenger car..............I'd still wonder at the stress around the nuts.  Tire balance issues, side sway, road sway, etc."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepWith hub-centering, and the nuts acting only as clamps, this wasn't workable as a  drill/ream/mill job?
Reply:Originally Posted by BurpeeWhy not just back the hole with a chunk of copper and filler up with the MIG instead of screwing around inside ?
Reply:OK job is done.Pics show progress..Bolt rim to Bridgeport table..Indicate centerhole..Center drill first...Drill holes smaller than finish size..Finish holes with proper size END MILL.Why end mill?NO deflection like a standard drill..Even included a pic of the math to find bolt pattern..Got my tire mounted and balanced..The centerhole was about .020 too small so a little massaging with my 4" grinder took care of that..Note the lug holes in the old rim..Can you say "Trash?"Pics....I took it for a ride..45 miles and it's as smooth as glass FINALLY!!!!!Re torqued the lugs when I got home and as far as I am concerned..It's done and I am happy!!!I will get the old tire removed and fill/drill the orig rim for a spare if it is worth it...I get all the fun jobs.......zap!Last edited by zapster; 09-27-2013 at 12:30 PM.I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:And one more thing..About making the holes larger..Oblonged..Whatever...Not a good idea.In 4X4 if the holes are too big to start with and they get the slightest amount loose....The holes will only end up like the rim I took off because of the back and forth motion under torque while plowing...If it was a 4X2 truck I can see just oversizing the holes and calling it a day but in this application the tighter the better!...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.Just curious, you guys don't have a rotary table that the rim would have fit on? 360 degrees / 8 = hole every 45 degrees. Less math involved.That's what I did when I made spacers for my sister in law's car.Just curious, that's allkidtigger24  They think I’m crazy, but I know better. It is not I who am crazy. It is I who am MAD!
Reply:Originally Posted by kidtigger24Just curious, you guys don't have a rotary table that the rim would have fit on? 360 degrees / 8 = hole every 45 degrees. Less math involved.That's what I did when I made spacers for my sister in law's car.Just curious, that's allkidtigger24
Reply:Looks like the old wheel had been chucking on the studs for a while. What wheel is that in the last pic?   Doesn't look like the old or the repaired.  Shiney like polished alu when it should be rust-spotted white, brown rusty on newly machined center??- MondoMember, AWSLincoln ProMIG 140Lincoln AC TombstoneCraftsman Lathe 12 x 24 c1935Atlas MFC Horizontal MillCraftsman Commercial Lathe 12 x 36 c1970- - - I'll just keep on keepin' on.
Reply:Originally Posted by MondoLooks like the old wheel had been chucking on the studs for a while. What wheel is that in the last pic?   Doesn't look like the old or the repaired.  Shiney like polished alu when it should be rust-spotted white, brown rusty on newly machined center??- Mondo
Reply:Glad to see some of your work again Zap, started to think you'd retired:-)Regards, Peterwww.petermoll.nl
Reply:Awesome !  I like that cad drawing on the yellow paper. You know, now that you are finished, your gonna see hundreds for sale ! that's just the way it works for me. I couldn't find a replacement grain auger close to me, looked for months.  Drove 80 miles and found a nice one. The following week there was one 5 miles away.   Oh well, nice job.
Reply:Originally Posted by peter76Glad to see some of your work again Zap, started to think you'd retired:-)Regards, Peter
Reply:When I first started reading this yesterday on my phone where I couldn't see the pics to well, I thought you bored out the hub and was in the process of making a new center section to be welded in. My first thought was yeah baby that's how you do it! Then I realized you filled the holes and were gonna drill a new bolt pattern. It came out good no doubt zap, but I think a new center section would be the safer move on a daily commuter that gets beat up and worked hard. On a tractor or something of that nature I wouldn't sweat it, but not on a over the road truck tho. I see dissimilar metal cracking issues in the future. You may wanna keep the wheel cover off and monitor it espescially through your plow season. Good work though no doubt, don't take it the wrong way brother! I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeWhen I first started reading this yesterday on my phone where I couldn't see the pics to well, I thought you bored out the hub and was in the process of making a new center section to be welded in. My first thought was yeah baby that's how you do it! Then I realized you filled the holes and were gonna drill a new bolt pattern. It came out good no doubt zap, but I think a new center section would be the safer move on a daily commuter that gets beat up and worked hard. On a tractor or something of that nature I wouldn't sweat it, but not on a over the road truck tho. I see dissimilar metal cracking issues in the future. You may wanna keep the wheel cover off and monitor it espescially through your plow season. Good work though no doubt, don't take it the wrong way brother!
Reply:I forgot about the backer ring for the lug nuts which definitely spreads the forces and should address any potential cracking concerns/issues. Originally Posted by zapsterAnd one more thing..About making the holes larger..Oblonged..Whatever...Not a good idea.
Reply:That's not what i'm getting at at ALL. What i'm getting at is a alloy steel rim is not really that strong as far as tensile strength goes. They fold up fairly easy under stress or impact. Now you weld the bolt holes shut and create multiple stiff spots in a tiny area that takes the most abuse. The hub. Those tiny holes will not leave much room for stress relief which leads to a small tear or cracks next to the welded up hole which goes like a domino affect to the other stressed out holes and viola you got a problem on your hands. If the whole center section was replaced it would leave a lot broader area of stress to run in a bigger circle so to speak, and just fold or kink due to stress relief rather than tear apart a bunch tiny stiff spots. Spinal fusion on two disks will wreak havoc on the disks above and below it. Same thing. Temporary fix unless you change your lifestyle. Same with a vehicle.I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:This is from a powerstroke truck I think.... Those trucks will eat wheel studs plowing snow. Not being stud piloted just works the rims back and forth until failure. Constant tightening might help but only does so much.
Reply:In a way it's good that this can of worms is out and crawling around everywhere...Gets a lot of thought from different angles involved..I take everyones opinion into the brainbox and I process it but so far in MY way of thinking about this is the best deal..FOR ME AT LEAST....You guys want to do this in some other fashion then by all means go for it..Be sure to post your results..I did and will drive the wheels off this if need be...It's done and it works.Granted there are other ways but with what I have at hand at my disposal at anytime??This was easier than I thought..And I do some really fuched up stuff everyday...No worries guys..When failure strikes you will be informed so you will not do this........OK?...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by cd19This is from a powerstroke truck I think.... Those trucks will eat wheel studs plowing snow. Not being stud piloted just works the rims back and forth until failure. Constant tightening might help but only does so much.
Reply:Another job well done, if it was welded once it can be welded again . If you dont believe in welding we would be still riveting! !! We have bad holes and fill them in all the time,back up with copper plate stick in a sub arc squirt gun fill up grind off ten min work! ! Full pen welds are stronger than the base metal all the time. Booms tanks vessels if welded once it can be welded again.BS about welding rod too all mild steel uses the same wire the flux makes the difference.E-60 to E-90 will all work, most all heavy equipment is grade 50 steel not A514 T1! You could fix90% with E-7014 and would not break.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterThese are bad news and I have sheared the studs off many times...
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepZap - Half of your clamping problems are with those unsightly simulators. Throw 'em away already, the Waldorf-Astoria truck show is over.
Reply:Nice work, bruddah.-AaronJet 17.5" Drill Press1942 South Bend 16x84 Lathe1980s Miller 320A / BP --- 2013 Power Mig 2562012 Jet 7x12 Horizontal BandsawVictor O/A Setup
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterIn a way it's good that this can of worms is out and crawling around everywhere...Gets a lot of thought from different angles involved..
Reply:Really nice work.  I gotta ask, how did you chuck the rim in the lathe when you cleaned up the outside surface?  I will say... I retired from an automotive engineering job for a US OEM.  One of the projects I worked on (without going into specifics, please don't ask for details) was wheel attachment to hubs.  It goes like this.--the guys that make wheels are very good at ensuring the five stud holes have perfect alignment to each other.  Its a gang 'drill' operation and the variability is very small. The problem they have is ensuring the five hole pattern is centered in the rim.  The wheel rim center hole is perfect, but they have to align the gang drill operation to the rim center.  If the gang drill is off by 0.4mm then that translates to a discernible ride quality at 70MPH.  --One way to solve that is to use a tight fit to the brake rotor/drum, and allow a little bit of ID/OD slop at the lug nuts and use flat washer lug nuts to hold it tight (same as you are using there).  The issue is you have to maintain tight torque control on the clamping force of the lug nuts, and you need to test to verify you don't have issues.  If the lug nuts get loose, then the wheel clocks in place the the holes in the rim get oval.  And when they get oval, its a quick downward spiral from there.. a large oval means less surface area under the lugnut, means less clamping force, etc...The test for this retention was called the "Brake Spike Test". Basically you carefully measured lug torque, marked all the lugnuts with paint pen.  Run the vehicle up to 60 MPH on a test track then jammed on the brakes to dead stop.  Do this 40 times.  After completion measure torque and any wheel clocking. Any discernable degradation in torque or wheel clocking = a fail. (and don't quote me on the MPH / # of stops... I don't remember the exact #'s.. it could have been 70MPH and 50 stops...I'm pretty sure it was something near that range.)  At the time I was working on the axle design / manufacturing part of the conversation.Acorn nuts (those with a cup shaped on the rim, and a cone shape on the lugnut) are really good for this test, but alas, you still have the centering / quality of ride issue at 70MPH.   Bottom line, its important to check your lug nuts for torque, and verify there are no elongated lug nut holes in your rims.  Let's stay safe out there!--Zip
Reply:Originally Posted by zipzitReally nice work.  I gotta ask, how did you chuck the rim in the lathe when you cleaned up the outside surface?  --Zip
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterYeah your right...Maybe a can of red paint is in order...?...zap!
Reply:Good job Zap, Your work is always impressing to see. My dad was a machinist & a good welder, like you. I remember people would tell him "you can't do that!" He used to reply, " I'm always doing the things that I can't do, that's how I've learned to do most of the things I can do!"Mastering others is strength, mastering yourself is true power.
Reply:Normally I would be against the average welder doing this. With you thoe ime not worried, from your posts on the forum you impress me all the time. As for if it meets DOT standards that's a whole different story. It does however meet my standards.GREAT JOB PROUD   AMERICAN
Reply:Originally Posted by lstiltsGood job Zap, Your work is always impressing to see. My dad was a machinist & a good welder, like you. I remember people would tell him "you can't do that!" He used to reply, " I'm always doing the things that I can't do, that's how I've learned to do most of the things I can do!"