Boss wants TIG quality at MIG prices

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Working on a large SS tank project using 11 ga SS. Boss wants our mig welds to look and perform like Tig. Beautiful welds and zero leaks, 100% penetration welded on both sides.We are using Stargon. Anyone have experience or advice on different gases or techniques?
Reply:Originally Posted by carl1144Working on a large SS tank project using 11 ga SS. Boss wants our mig welds to look and perform like Tig. Beautiful welds and zero leaks, 100% penetration welded on both sides.We are using Stargon. Anyone have experience or advice on different gases or techniques?
Reply:These are sheets tacked together and attached to stiffeners and frame in the upright position. Welds are vertical down and horizontal for the seams. No sheet gaps. Flap disc would be too time consuming
Reply:How are you preventing 'sugaring' one the back side of the welds?
Reply:Originally Posted by carl1144Working on a large SS tank project using 11 ga SS. Boss wants our mig welds to look and perform like Tig. Beautiful welds and zero leaks, 100% penetration welded on both sides.We are using Stargon. Anyone have experience or advice on different gases or techniques?
Reply:Originally Posted by carl1144These are sheets tacked together and attached to stiffeners and frame in the upright position. Welds are vertical down and horizontal for the seams. No sheet gaps. Flap disc would be too time consuming
Reply:Originally Posted by fronty_78How are you preventing 'sugaring' one the back side of the welds?
Reply:Tank is 12' high and 30' long. Sugar abounds and is ground out. Sound stupid? It is. Several welders at the same time. Miller machines using 316L and sheets are 304. 309 L for welding sheets to black iron stiffeners. Tested with red dye. We have a pulse welder and we dialed it in and had flat no spatter overhead welds. Boss said pulse would not work with Stargon or A1025 gases, yet we proved it lol. Yes it is a nightmare. I wanted to gap the sheets but to no avail.
Reply:Originally Posted by carl1144Working on a large SS tank project using 11 ga SS. Boss wants our mig welds to look and perform like Tig. Beautiful welds and zero leaks, 100% penetration welded on both sides.We are using Stargon. Anyone have experience or advice on different gases or techniques?
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelsonLincoln STT or the high end Miller pulsed systems. Either of these comes at a price,which a knowledgeable 'boss' could easily understand-- that yah gotta pay to play.
Reply:Is this boss, either a rich doctor/lawyer looking to get into brewing beer/making wine?Or, was your boss hired by the above?
Reply:Originally Posted by carl1144Tank is 12' high and 30' long. Sugar abounds and is ground out. Sound stupid? It is. Several welders at the same time. Miller machines using 316L and sheets are 304. 309 L for welding sheets to black iron stiffeners. Tested with red dye. We have a pulse welder and we dialed it in and had flat no spatter overhead welds. Boss said pulse would not work with Stargon or A1025 gases, yet we proved it lol. Yes it is a nightmare. I wanted to gap the sheets but to no avail.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fnord5Is this boss, either a rich doctor/lawyer looking to get into brewing beer/making wine?Or, was your boss hired by the above?
Reply:Originally Posted by RojodiabloMmmmmm........... questions that need answers.Are you welding inside and out? If you are welding 1 side, then all he's gonna get is the root pass showing inside.What grade of SS? What filler?What machine are you welding with? Pulse, or no?How big a tank (Diameter) and how many welders working the project at a time?Solar flux, pure argon environment, or just winging it?Now; thoughts on this. If there is no pulse, and no hot start feature, then you are not going to get 'tig' looks, and certainly will have issues with stops and starts, and porosity. You will need to back grind the stops, and double back with your starts.For really nice SS welds, I recommend a tri-gas, Stargon SS is ok, I have had the best results with a mix that had helium in it. It's not cheap, and that is why shops avoid the He. As to the seams, 11ga is not really thick. If these tanks are small, then I am saying purge the tank for certain!. If the tank is large, and you can get inside to the back of the weld, then solar flux is a good option. The other option is a guy using a manual nozzle on the inside, mirroring your outside weld with only gas for good coverage and a proper SS weld. (Not a cheap process, but it's the best result.)And, finally, if the tank size is large, once tacked up, you might look at 2 welders working it from opposing sides to minimize the distortion. As much as I'd hate to say it, with a large drum that was SS, you would be looking at a real possibility of warping. As such, I would be looking to running relatively short weld beads and alternating locations. This means a lot of starts and stops. A lot of potential leaks. So, a lot of careful grinder work. And, it's a tank. Do NOT grind the welds to make them look better. Weld them nice, and you get what you get. If it HAS to be appearance grade, and you are pretty close but want a little finish work on them, a Utinized wheel from 3M can be a mild polisher, without material removal like even a flap disc will do. In general, these are ok to remove weld coloring and to de-burr a spot where the weld bead might have a rough spot but is otherwise ok on SS. They are also used to leave SS with a finish between a brushed finish and a mild smooth mill look. But they do not remove material in any consequence. This might be a critical part of this, especially if these tanks are expected to hold any pressure. If they are just to be sealed for water tightness, then you won't have any issue.
Reply:Originally Posted by carl1144I think my best shot will be dialing in the pulse machine and using SolarFlux, of which I have no experience with either. What is the common gas for SS pulse? After using the SolarFlux I will need to weld that joint also, is that a problem? Does it require cleaning residue etc  after use?
Reply:My experience with TIG is you can't produce 100% pen without some kind of weld prep......Especially on thicker material.......11 ga. if the joint is set up edge to edge with MIG might be a problem......Like Terry mentioned, why are you guys using 316on 304?   I always thought 316L  was more for ACID tanks and food processing jobsthat 304 isn't..........I have an idea.......Have your BOSS show you  how its done and do what he does....LMAOLast edited by B_C; 08-05-2013 at 01:53 PM.  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:all's I got is Good Luck with that boss of yours.
Reply:First tell your boss that he doesn't know anything about welding. Stargon is not ok for stainless. you need 98/2 mix (good for pulsed,spray or short circuit mig), because any more co2 in gas mixure and you'll get more oxidized welds. trimix is expensive but it wont give you any better results.
Reply:Originally Posted by B_CMy experience with TIG is you can't produce 100% pen without some kind of weld prep......Especially on thicker material.......11 ga. if the joint is set up edge to edge with MIG might be a problem......Like Terry mentioned, why are you guys using 316on 304?   I always thought 316L  was more for ACID tanks and food processing jobsthat 304 isn't..........I have an idea.......Have your BOSS show you  how its done and do what he does....LMAO
Reply:Originally Posted by carl1144He is an old school guy that refuses new technology or anything he has never experienced. He was hired as a yes man and uses the old style threatening to motivate. What I need is some serious science to demonstrate the correct way to weld SS sheets with the correct mig process and correct consumables for what they want.
Reply:Originally Posted by carl1144I think my best shot will be dialing in the pulse machine and using SolarFlux, of which I have no experience with either. What is the common gas for SS pulse? After using the SolarFlux I will need to weld that joint also, is that a problem? Does it require cleaning residue etc  after use?
Reply:Reading this thread made me think of something my wife posted on face book earlier today....
Reply:I like that!!! Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Might be time to find a new boss.I reached a breaking point with an "old timer" who insisted we use 100 percent CO2 and grind our welds flush. Obviously a pain in the *** as C25 grinds more easily. It was cheaper for him to pay us nearly minimum wage and buy 100% CO2 than to buy C25 and have us finish more projects in X amount of time. (Math doesn't add up on that, but, hey, he was on a boat one time, so he knew everything about how they used to do it back in Chicago, etc. etc. etc)I hope his hospice doesn't have any kittens, and my advice regarding an "old timer" is pick up and blow. Let their kids save their dying business. If you fight long enough, you will win. The problem is it costs too damned much.- Lee Cheng
Reply:Originally Posted by B_CI have an idea.......Have your BOSS show you  how its done and do what he does....LMAOOriginally Posted by bellflowerMight be time to find a new boss.I reached a breaking point with an "old timer" who insisted we use 100 percent CO2 and grind our welds flush. Obviously a pain in the *** as C25 grinds more easily. It was cheaper for him to pay us nearly minimum wage and buy 100% CO2 than to buy C25 and have us finish more projects in X amount of time.
Reply:Thank you guys for all the prompt answers! Very knowledgeable folks here. I made a mistake(brain fart) by saying 304, it is 316 11ga. The machine is a Miller Invision 352 MPa Migrunner. This boss would not believe a chemical engineer or metalugist if they told it to his face. It's more about his control rather than truth sadly. What I'm seeing now is that I need to make a cost comparison of what we are using(standard MIG and Stargon with lots of labor in cleanup) and what should be used to get high quality, machine and gas. The tank has vertical channel columns every 6' and horizontal angle stiffenrs in between( 2 rows). Lots of 309L too as everything is welded solid. I tried the Miller pulse with Stargon( not the best I know) and still did way better than standard mig. No splatter and 3/16 wide, flat welds, in overhead and horizontal. I'll post pictures soon cause I'd like to set up demonstration coupons to convince a few folks. Thanks for your input!
Reply:Originally Posted by B_CMy experience with TIG is you can't produce 100% pen without some kind of weld prep......Especially on thicker material.......11 ga. if the joint is set up edge to edge with MIG might be a problem......Like Terry mentioned, why are you guys using 316on 304?   I always thought 316L  was more for ACID tanks and food processing jobsthat 304 isn't..........I have an idea.......Have your BOSS show you  how its done and do what he does....LMAO
Reply:sounds like you boss is not qualified for his position lol if the customer specs on the print for prepped joints you prep the damn jointsMiller Xmt 350Lincoln Ln-25Ahp 200xSmith Gas Mixer AR/HTig is my Kung FuThrowing down dimes and weaving aboutInstagram http://instagram.com/[email protected]
Reply:What is the composition of Stargon? Never heard of it before. Is is for stainless?Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Originally Posted by carl1144No prep but the customer specified gaps and prep.
Reply:Lol, rant away. The customer is a German company with high standards. This boss will be replaced sooner or later, I just hate to lose good customers because of stubbornness and pride. We have another tank to build...120' in 3 pieces. Laser cut panels and a new cnc press brake is coming this week. I'm going to picture post the thing as it goes. Shovelon that gas is a Praxair tri-mix of Argon, CO2 and OXY I think. It is trash. I'd like to go with Helium but no chance.
Reply:Originally Posted by carl1144Lol, rant away. The customer is a German company with high standards. This boss will be replaced sooner or later, I just hate to lose good customers because of stubbornness and pride. We have another tank to build...120' in 3 pieces. Laser cut panels and a new cnc press brake is coming this week. I'm going to picture post the thing as it goes. Shovelon that gas is a Praxair tri-mix of Argon, CO2 and OXY I think. It is trash. I'd like to go with Helium but no chance.
Reply:just buy ar/co2 mix - 97,5/2,5 or 98/2 mix also called inoxmix (at least in europe). Dont even bother with other gases. You can try pulse but it's very hard to set it correctly. I personaly don't like pulse (except for alu), because there is great chance you'll have porous welds and poor penetration. I was welding some 2mm thick 316Ti stainless with 98/2 mix and 0,8mm wire. I don't remember the settings but I got gold-blue colored welds with almost full penetration (not full pen. because of sugaring).
Reply:Boy, this sounds like a train-wreck in progress. I can't imagine anyone, never mind "a German company with high standards" paying for a stainless tank of that size with such half-arsed procedures being used. If I were in your position I would be sending out resumes!It seems incomprehensible that your boss would pay for such a nice welder but won't buy the right gas for it, but I guess it takes all kinds...For pulse MIG ss, I use Airgas StainMix, which is 97% Ar, 3% CO2. I imagine PraxAir has something similar.Good luck,JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:Originally Posted by carl1144Lol, rant away. The customer is a German company with high standards. This boss will be replaced sooner or later, I just hate to lose good customers because of stubbornness and pride. We have another tank to build...120' in 3 pieces. Laser cut panels and a new cnc press brake is coming this week. I'm going to picture post the thing as it goes. Shovelon that gas is a Praxair tri-mix of Argon, CO2 and OXY I think. It is trash. I'd like to go with Helium but no chance.
Reply:Lol after reading this Im really glad I work at home for myself.........  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:There is absolutely no talking to the guy. Besides we are all journeyman sheet metal workers getting paid well to watch him choke. At any rate, a time study with coupons for proof is best to convince the men over his head.
Reply:Originally Posted by carl1144lol...he get my check if I asked him to show me. Its 316 on 316 my fault. No prep but the customer specified gaps and prep.
Reply:I want to educate him with science in front of his higher ups
Reply:Originally Posted by carl1144There is absolutely no talking to the guy. Besides we are all journeyman sheet metal workers getting paid well to watch him choke. At any rate, a time study with coupons for proof is best to convince the men over his head.
Reply:Just weld it up... The boss is just trying to tighten up your balloon knots, do your thing and pay extra attention on tie ins is all.Sal
Reply:From a customer perspective, if I had any reason to believe that something welded for us was not built to our prints, especially something like joint preps, that vendor would be scrapping the piece and starting over at their own cost with lots of oversight, or would lose the contract altogether.  If you have customer prints, find the engineer's name and make a phone call to the customer.
Reply:Originally Posted by WPSalvationJust weld it up... The boss is just trying to tighten up your balloon knots, do your thing and pay extra attention on tie ins is all.
Reply:The people who CHOSE to hire that drooling piece of excrement deserve to eat every bit of any pain said piece of excrement causes.The moment I get a $h1ttbag as a boss, any loyality I might have had is forfeit and I hope he effing has a stroke while I watch and smile.Besides we are all journeyman sheet metal workers getting paid well to watch him choke
Reply:Originally Posted by carl1144.Besides we are all journeyman sheet metal workers getting paid well to watch him choke.
Reply:I wonder if the quote on the job was too good to be true.